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I've been working on a few new armies recently and picked up the new GK codex for my old army and was discussing with someone at my local GW.

In regards to your FoC do you have to use the one that's in the Codex that your using or can you use the FoC in the main rulebook?

For example:
In the Space Wolves there's the main rulebook chart and the version in the codex. Which chart would I have to use or can I pick?

Another example is the new Ork dex where the FoC in that requires 3 Troops.

Also if I use the Champions of Fenris supplement (mainly for the Wargear and the Warlord traits) that then adds a 3rd chart into the mix. If I used the Champions of Fenris can I use the Space Wolves codex FoC seeing as I'm technically using the Space Wolves codex?

Don't mind if I have to either use the supplement (if using Champions of Fenris) or the main rulebook, but would quite like to use version from the Space Wolves codex if possible.

Thank you in advance.

See the Detachament rules in the main rulebook.

You may use any number, and any TYPE of detachment.


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Stiyx wrote:
Also if I use the Champions of Fenris supplement (mainly for the Wargear and the Warlord traits) that then adds a 3rd chart into the mix. If I used the Champions of Fenris can I use the Space Wolves codex FoC seeing as I'm technically using the Space Wolves codex?

In order to use the Wargear from the Supplement, you need to use the Formations or Detachment in that book.

http://lightofterra.wix.com/blog#!Detachments-/c1xek/D8E8A70B-FA50-4E3B-B2D4-C03FD25FDB13

ChapertMasterRagnaValick wrote:
http://lightofterra.wix.com/blog#!Detachments-/c1xek/D8E8A70B-FA50-4E3B-B2D4-C03FD25FDB13

Dude, two words: "spell check"

Yes, that chart has quite some typo's and isn't really that clear.
I've made another one in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/608505.page

As to the TS:
You can take any Detachment you want, you just have to look at the restrictions.
It speaks for itself that your GK's cannot take the SW-Detachment.
The rules for this are found in the restrictions, they tell you that all units must have the SW-Faction.

Champions of Fenris question:
If you take a Detachment from that Supplement, you get the bonuses from that book. Including the Traits and Relics.
If you select a Detachment from the Codex or BRB, you get the bonuses from those books and do not have access to Supplement-Traits or Relics.

So if I wanted to use the Relics and Warlord Traits from the Champions of Fenris book but used the normal FoC (1 HQ and 2 Troops) from the main rulebook that would be allowed?

I understand that I can't use the Champions of Fenris traits and wargear with the FoC from the SW codex thats not a problem. Just not sure I have enough Elite units (haven't fully started making my Space Wolves yet) to do the actual CoF FoC.

Stiyx wrote:
So if I wanted to use the Relics and Warlord Traits from the Champions of Fenris book but used the normal FoC (1 HQ and 2 Troops) from the main rulebook that would be allowed?

That is correct.
You also get the Command Benefits (or is it Command Traits?) for using the Combined Arms Detachment (1HQ 2 Troops)

No, that is incorrect.
You can only take the CoF-Relics and Warlord Traits if you use Company of the Great Wolf-Detachment or any of the Formations from that book.

Any character that is part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Relics of the Fang cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Wolves, but can instead select from Relics of the Great Wolf, presented in their own section, following, at the points costs shown.

The Company of the Great Wolf-Detachment needs 2 Elites at minimum, so you don't need a lot of them.

Kangodo wrote:
No, that is incorrect.
You can only take the CoF-Relics and Warlord Traits if you use Company of the Great Wolf-Detachment or any of the Formations from that book.

Any character that is part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Relics of the Fang cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Wolves, but can instead select from Relics of the Great Wolf, presented in their own section, following, at the points costs shown.

The Company of the Great Wolf-Detachment needs 2 Elites at minimum, so you don't need a lot of them.

That doesn't say what you think it does. It only restricts Detachments or Formations from that book to the Relics of the Great Wolf. It's silent on whether Detachments or Formations from Codex Space Wolves have access to Relics of the Great Wolf.

If you don't have permission to do something, you can't do it.
Relics of Titan from the Grey Knights-codex is also silent on whether Detachments or Formations from Codex: Space Wolves have access to it.

Let's take a Space Wolves Lord as example.

• May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Relics of the Fang list.

So I can take items from the Relics of the Fang.
I cannot take items from Relics of the Great Wolf.

That's different than quoting a rule that says nothing on the matter though.

Not really, that line is not only a restriction. It's also the only line giving permission to take them and it only gives that permission to units from specific Detachments and Formations.

I disagree. The rule you quoted has nothing to do with who can take Relics of the Great Wolf, just that Detachments or Formations from that book can only take Relics of the Great Wolf.

So what are you saying? If you tell me that a CAD of Space Wolves can take supplement-relics then I would like to see the rule that allows you to do this.

The Wolf Lord in the SW codex has permission to take a Relic of the Fang as an upgrade option. This holds true if it is part of a CAD, or Allied detachment, or Wolves Unleashed detachment. As a member of one of those detachments (and some others) it does not have permission to take a relic of the Great Wolf.

If that same Wolf Lord is taken as part of a formation from the CoF supplement, or as part of the CotGW detachment, it gets a new special rule that *does* give it permission to take a relic of the Great Wolf. But it only has this premission while a unit in one of those formations or detechments.

This may seem like a dumb question but does taking more than 1 detachment remove Battle Forged (ie objective secured and warlord reroll)

 riverhawks32 wrote:
This may seem like a dumb question but does taking more than 1 detachment remove Battle Forged (ie objective secured and warlord reroll)

No, If your taking detachments at all then its battle forged

Awww sweet... The list ideas begin.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
This may seem like a dumb question but does taking more than 1 detachment remove Battle Forged (ie objective secured and warlord reroll)

Before you start making lists: Objective Secured is a bonus from a Combined Arms Detachment or Allied Detachment, not from Battle-forged!
Taking a 'Company of the Great Wolf' does not give Objective Secured.

And if you go Battle-forged (take a Detachment), all of your models need to be in a Detachment.

Kangodo wrote:
So what are you saying? If you tell me that a CAD of Space Wolves can take supplement-relics then I would like to see the rule that allows you to do this.

I'm going to go with the same rule that allows you to take a CAD of Garsight Enclaves, Iyanden, Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, Sentinels of Terra or Clan Raukaan...

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
So what are you saying? If you tell me that a CAD of Space Wolves can take supplement-relics then I would like to see the rule that allows you to do this.

I'm going to go with the same rule that allows you to take a CAD of Garsight Enclaves, Iyanden, Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, Sentinels of Terra or Clan Raukaan...

There's quite a difference between those supplements and the newer style 7th ed ones.

The Space Wolves supplement states the relics can only be chosen for a character taken from a Detachment or Formation chosen from that Suppliment.

A CAD from the Space Wolves book is not a Detachment from the Suppliment. The characters may not take Suppliment Relics.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm going to go with the same rule that allows you to take a CAD of Garsight Enclaves, Iyanden, Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, Sentinels of Terra or Clan Raukaan...

That would be this rule: "Later in this section you will find the Combined Arms Detachment and the Allied Detachment. Both of these can be used with any army."

Not really relevant to Relics

 riverhawks32 wrote:
This may seem like a dumb question but does taking more than 1 detachment remove Battle Forged (ie objective secured and warlord reroll)

Battleforged does NOT give you objective secured, etc.

All it does is allow you to gain the benefits of detachment command benefits, SUCH AS objective secured from a CAD, Hammer of Wrath from the Ork detachment, etc.

The Space Wolves supplement states the relics can only be chosen for a character taken from a Detachment or Formation chosen from that Suppliment. 

I'm going to want a rules quote on that because I haven't seen that wording.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The Space Wolves supplement states the relics can only be chosen for a character taken from a Detachment or Formation chosen from that Suppliment. 

I'm going to want a rules quote on that because I haven't seen that wording.

Certainly.

It's in the rule "Relics of the Great Wolf"
"Any character that is part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Relics of the Fang cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Wolves, but can instead select from Relics of the Great Wolf, presented in their own section, following, at the points costs shown.”

Before we get into the semantics of it:
That line doesn't exactly say that, it doesn't exclude Detachments outside the Supplement.
But we don't have anything that gives permission to take these Relics in Detachments from outside the Supplement.
So while the end-result is probably the same, the word 'only' would be incorrect in your first statement.

Conclusion: Supplement-Detachments are the only Detachments that have permission to take the Relics from that Supplement.

A valid point, I shouldn't have said "only"
It's currently the only place granting permission to take those particular relics.

 grendel083 wrote:
A valid point, I shouldn't have said "only"
It's currently the only place granting permission to take those particular relics.

That was the point being made. That rule is one example of permission given to use the CoF supplement rules. So where does it deny the permission to take a CAD of a supplement?

If it does not exist we have two ways of moving forward:

1) Accept there is no permission in the BrB to take a CAD of a supplement thus only the CoF detachments get access to the CoF rules and thus it is impossible to ever use a 6th Ed Supplement.
2) Accept that there is permission in the BrB to take a CAD of a supplement and hence you can take a CoF (or Waaagh Ghazghul) CAD.

 FlingitNow wrote:
1) Accept there is no permission in the BrB to take a CAD of a supplement thus only the CoF detachments get access to the CoF rules and thus it is impossible to ever use a 6th Ed Supplement.

This.
But the underlined I disagree with. Those 6th ed supplements are written in a different way to the 7th ed ones.
They simply work differently, and have rules / FAQs that allow their use.

2) Accept that there is permission in the BrB to take a CAD of a supplement and hence you can take a CoF (or Waaagh Ghazghul) CAD.

If you take a CAD (from the rulebook) and fill it with units from Codex: Orks, what makes it a detachment from the Ghazghkull Supplement? You've taken nothing from that book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
That rule is one example of permission given to use the CoF supplement rules.

Are there any other rules granting permission? It's not a general permission, that rule only allows their use in specific cases (detachment or formation taken from that book). So if it's not that case, there's no other permission, correct?

So where does it deny the permission to take a CAD of a supplement?

Nothing denies it. But then nothing has granted permission. So a denial is not needed.

grendel083 wrote:
It's in the rule "Relics of the Great Wolf"
"Any character that is part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Relics of the Fang cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Wolves, but can instead select from Relics of the Great Wolf, presented in their own section, following, at the points costs shown.”

If this is the exact wording, then grendel is correct, unless the wording in the rulebook states for CAD and/or Allied Detachments "this detachment counts as being presented in the codex (and/or supplement) that the units are taken from", or something similar.

Quick tip: it doesn't.

It doesn't matter for 6th edition supplements as they do not include wording similar to "a detachment taken from this supplement" (or none that I have read at least).
They state the following:

Clan Raukaan wrote: Any character in your Clan Raukaan Detachment that can select Chapter Relics cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Marines, but can instead select from the Gifts of the Gorgon at the points cost shown.

Sentinel of Terra wrote: Any character in your Sentinels of Terra Detachment that can select Chapter Relics cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Marines but can instead select from the Relics of the 3rd Company section at the points cost shown

A Clan Raukaan or Sentinels of Terra Detachment would be any Detachment that uses the appropriate supplement and is allowed to use the Iron Hands or Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics respectively, whereas the Champions of Fenris(?) book states that it must be a Detachment or Formation presented in the Champions of Fenris(?) book.