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Made in us
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Solahma






RVA

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I am asking you directly what should have been changed, if the issue is problematic enough that you have to bring it up. Or do we just allow them to continue this?
I don't know about you, but I don't have the power to "allow" video game developers and publishers to do anything one way or another. Hitman contains problematic content. I have explained what it is and why I think it is problematic. I'm not sure how re-writing the game in a forum post is relevant.

   
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USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
She has portrayed that small part
Irrrelevant.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
These characters aren't even characters you are meant to interact with
This is a video game. If you can interact with it, you're "meant" to interact with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:37:14


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in se
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

For some reason, watching this thread makes me think of some kind of fight scene, where each post is a strike, and the next is a riposte...


Currently ongoing projects:
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Slarg232 wrote:
All feminists want 90% of the male population culled from society, and the remaining 10% to be put into labor and breeding camps.

Femitheist explicitly said she was not a feminist, man.
 Slarg232 wrote:
Why is that different from Hitman; Anita stated a claim that is wildly off base as has been proven in let's plays and this thread. It is misrepresenting the hitman game and feminist population.

The feminist population is a bunch of different people with very few in common. The hitman: absolution game is… well, one game. Not even a series. So, yeah, your comparison makes no sense.


I kill Joe the Plumber in Hitman. I kill Scarlet Furbooties the Stripper in Hitman. I kill Jane the Cop in Hitman.

Why is only one of those reprehensible?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Melissia wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
She has portrayed that small part
Irrrelevant.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
These characters aren't even characters you are meant to interact with
This is a video game. If you can interact with it, you're "meant" to interact with it.


Not really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:37:45


I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. 
   
Made in us
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 Melissia wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
These characters aren't even characters you are meant to interact with
In the you aren't meant to interact with something, you wouldn't be able to., just like 99% of the characters in the game.
This is a video game. If you can interact with it, you're "meant" to interact with it.


Yes, by interacting with things you are supposed to desecrate all the bodies, including men, women, and animals in a few cases.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:39:24


 
   
Made in us
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UK

After careful consideration (all of the entire gaming feminism thing was new to me as of last week) I have come to a conclusion that I think should satisfy almost everyone... hear me out, I am famously good at building bridges.

I posit, that 99.9% of feminist would disagree with some of the seminal points of Anita Sarkeesians video. Therefore, I would say that she is saying what she does, to gain infamy, get a rep, get people talking, and (it always boils down to this in the real world) make money. And as such, there is no need for men to get defensive either, because she is inventing a position that almost no women take to stir up interest.

I followed a link on one of those videos to that whole fething "elevatorgate" thing, told my missus the story, and she basically said "I don't know a single woman who would possibly be offended by that" For those of you that haven't heard about it. In a nutshell, the girl who started "Skepchic" (Rebecca Watson) told a story about being in an elevator in Ireland after a night out, and a bloke said to her..

"Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"

She then kicked off about it, saying it was inappropriate, mentioned misogyny, the men (justifiably) went "hang on, that's ridiculous" and then it all went nuts and she successfully became a name. Mission accomplished. My hypothesis is that Anita, Zoe, and the vast, vast majority of "internet famous" people (both men and women) on this topic (femism/male activism) are doing what they are doing for one simple reason, to make money. So surely it is likely that they don't actually believe much of what they say because they are well aware that there is no such thing as bad publicity? I mean, Ill pose the question to everyone in here, feminists included, does anybody at all in the real world find a polite pick-up line offensive? Nobody I know does, not a single women ever would say that guys approach crossed a line, so why get pissed at feminists?

Have you ever politely said to a woman "Excuse me, I think you are really pretty/interesting and I know it sound a bit weird, but would you like to go for a drink or something?" and been verbally abused? I dont know anyone that has.

I mean sure, Ive been told "sorry I don't give my number to strangers/sorry ive already got a boyfriend" plenty of times, but not once have I been accused of being a penis wielding oppressor. This type of thing just doesn't happen in the real world. The whole thing is a storm in a teacup that is purposely and cynically stirred for money. I see no reason to get annoyed at feminists, and even pretty militant ones, because the vast, vast majority of women and feminists themselves do not agree with much of what these attention hungry business people say. And lets be honest, they probably don't either. Does Rebecca Watson really think that guy crossed a line?

Of course not.

Anita might actually be ok in person, I dont like her on the face of things, but I wouldn't doubt that she probably doesn't even agree with much of what she says, shes probably just a master of marketing. I have the same theory about plenty of people. I always wonder If I would actually get on with people like Bill O'Reilly in person, because he has created a persona. And Ann Coulter for example.... I'm expecting her to come out as a democrat satirist in about 5 years time.. but then in her case I might just be giving her too much credit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:40:41


We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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Yeah , uh the thing about Death Threats guys and people telling you their going to kill you, is you only have to be wrong once.

So yeah, it's a good idea to take death threats any death threats seriously. So i mean it's not really a overreaction like at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:40:47


If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The women are not hyper-sexualised
FFS. Strippers go beyond ("hyper") run of the mill sexuality. That is the very point of stripping. That the strippers appear in a strip club is irrelevant. I am not saying that they were out of place.


You are entirely missing the point. What these women do or who they are is entirely irrelevant because it's entirely irrelevant to everyone in that game. There are loads of different people in that game from all various walks of life doing all sorts of jobs. The fact that some of them happen to be strippers is basically meaningless, and Anita's attempt to portray these two specific characters (and the fact that you can kill them) is a deliberate misrepresentation of the game. At no point are they targets. At no point are you "meant" to do anything with them, and the closest you get to interacting with them is overhearing a conversation they have (like many other groups of characters, male and female, sexualised or non-sexualised, throughout the entire game).


It's relevant. All the NPC are relvent in someway or another. None were placed by accident everyone of them has a reason to exist in the game or no one would have taken the time to model them. It is worth it to ask why they are there.
   
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nomotog wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The women are not hyper-sexualised
FFS. Strippers go beyond ("hyper") run of the mill sexuality. That is the very point of stripping. That the strippers appear in a strip club is irrelevant. I am not saying that they were out of place.


You are entirely missing the point. What these women do or who they are is entirely irrelevant because it's entirely irrelevant to everyone in that game. There are loads of different people in that game from all various walks of life doing all sorts of jobs. The fact that some of them happen to be strippers is basically meaningless, and Anita's attempt to portray these two specific characters (and the fact that you can kill them) is a deliberate misrepresentation of the game. At no point are they targets. At no point are you "meant" to do anything with them, and the closest you get to interacting with them is overhearing a conversation they have (like many other groups of characters, male and female, sexualised or non-sexualised, throughout the entire game).


It's relevant. All the NPC are relvent in someway or another. None were placed by accident everyone of them has a reason to exist in the game or no one would have taken the time to model them. It is worth it to ask why they are there.


They are there to call you out if you feth up and drop your cover/leave a body lying around.

I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

This got lost on the last page, so I'm transferring it here:

The quote refers to a man. They took that quote and applied it to the game because Layla is beautiful (or meant to be, I suppose). Your fixation on the fact that they chose to use the word "thing" is why these debates are pointless. You get caught up on meaningless minutia. "Oh they referred to a woman as a 'thing'! Objectivication! Misogyny! The patriachy in action!". No. That's bs. They quoted a movie, because so many achievements like to quote or make references, puns, or plays on words to other things. I mean look at some of the names of the other achievements in the game:

The Killing Fields (the game must be pro-Khmer Rouge?)
Chamber of Secrets (the game must be pro-Harry Potter!)
Step into the Light
Like Stealing Candy from a Baby (the game must hate babies and gamers are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from stealing candy from infants?)
Jailbird (the game must be tough on crime?)
The Final Countdown (the game must be pro-music from the 80's)

And so on and so on. Phrases. References. Plays on words. At no point did anyone sit down and go "Hey. Woman are objects, right? Let's make an achievement to highlight that fact and call 'em a 'thing'. AHAHAHAHAA!".

They quoted a fething movie.

Jesus...


And it's 4:40am. I need to sleep...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
In the you aren't meant to interact with something, you wouldn't be able to., just like 99% of the characters in the game.
This is a video game. If you can interact with it, you're "meant" to interact with it.

But you are able to interact with the other characters in the game.
 Slarg232 wrote:
I kill Joe the Plumber in Hitman. I kill Scarlet Furbooties the Stripper in Hitman. I kill Jane the Cop in Hitman.

Why is only one of those reprehensible?

That is a different argument you are making now.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
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RVA

 Melissia wrote:
This is a video game. If you can interact with it, you're "meant" to interact with it.
That is very well put.
 Ashiraya wrote:
each post is a strike, and the next is a riposte...
If it was any other way, the internet would just be a product catalog. The whole internet would be Amazon without product reviews.

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

nomotog wrote:
It's relevant. All the NPC are relvent in someway or another. None were placed by accident everyone of them has a reason to exist in the game or no one would have taken the time to model them. It is worth it to ask why they are there.


Well of course they weren't placed by accident, but just like extras in a movie, their presence does not make them important or even relevant to the scene at hand.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 Manchu wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The women are not hyper-sexualised
FFS. Strippers go beyond ("hyper") run of the mill sexuality. That is the very point of stripping. That the strippers appear in a strip club is irrelevant. I am not saying that they were out of place.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're not calling a woman "something". They are quoting a line from a movie. Don't you get that???
Does the quotation refer to the woman or not?


To you maybe, But they do not go beyond 'hyper' That is a nonsense argument as there is no beyond hyper, it was something that you just made up. You have sexuality, and hyper sexuality.

Strippers are just hard working men & women, usually putting themselves through college. Just because you might have a symptom of sexual addiction, does not mean everyone views them the same way.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/symptoms-of-hypersexual-disorder-sex-addiction/0005046

The symptoms of Hypersexual Disorder are:
Over a period of at least six months, a person experiences recurrent and intense sexual fantasies, sexual urges, and sexual behavior in association with four or more of the following five criteria:

Excessive time is consumed by sexual fantasies and urges, and by planning for and engaging in sexual behavior.
Repetitively engaging in these sexual fantasies, urges, and behavior in response to dysphoric mood states (e.g., anxiety, depression, boredom, irritability).
Repetitively engaging in sexual fantasies, urges, and behavior in response to stressful life events.
Repetitive but unsuccessful efforts to control or significantly reduce these sexual fantasies, urges, and behavior.
Repetitively engaging in sexual behavior while disregarding the risk for physical or emotional harm to self or others.


If you're going to talk about hypersexuality, at least recognize it is a disorder and not some word to use to describe cute women.

 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Manchu wrote:
That is very well put.


And it also completely misses the point.

She lies. Nothing about her showing of Hitman is at all true. Everything is a misrepresentation. You are not MEANT to do what she says in that video. You are not MEANT to desecrate bodies. You are not MEANT to derive some strange pleasure from it. You are MEANT to walk past them and avoid the guards. They play an minor role in a tiny fraction of a level that makes up a fraction of a mission out of game with many missions. You can kill them and drag their bodies around, but that's not something unique to them as it can be done with everyone in the game, male or female, and in any of the game's 20+ other settings. They are neither the focus, aim, goal or objective of any part of the game, and to show someone killing them and dragging their bodies round and then come to the conclusion that players are meant to do that IS A LIE.

How difficult is this to understand?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:46:43


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
This is a video game. If you can interact with it, you're "meant" to interact with it.


I don't know if you can always claim that as a general statement. With the way video games are made and the way the systems interact with each other you can have interactions just show up by chance. Ghost iterations if you will. Things no one directly put in, but were created by the interactions of systems. The example I have on hand is tela surfing in psi-ops. The designers never intended the player to be able to fly, but it just happened.

In the case of HM:A, Ya they did intend to add strippers (They even exist for a reason.) and well they might not of directly programed your ability to move them, they were aware that you could.
   
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USA

 mattyrm wrote:
I posit, that 99.9% of feminist would disagree with some of the seminal points of Anita Sarkeesians video. Therefore, I would say that she is saying what she does, to gain infamy, get a rep, get people talking, and (it always boils down to this in the real world) make money. And as such, there is no need for men to get defensive either, because she is inventing a position that almost no women take to stir up interest.
I'm curious as to which ones these are?


I sort of agree with most of your post, granted.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
She has portrayed that small part
Irrrelevant.


Citation needed. WHY is it irrelevant?

This seems to be a pattern. One word answers, dismissing out of hand arguments that you don't like without trying to refute them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
These characters aren't even characters you are meant to interact with
This is a video game. If you can interact with it, you're "meant" to interact with it.


Not true.

I can kill someone with a kitchen knife. Maybe even a spoon if I use my imagination. That does not mean I'm "meant" to interact with cutlery in that way.

In Hitman, the game mechanic of being able to interact with and move a corpse is explicitly intended and designed for you the player to be able to maintain stealth by disposing of or hiding bodies of witnesses you have killed/knocked out.

You cannot blame player agency on the developers themselves. The developers design the game with a certain mechanic so that the player can play the game the way it is meant to be played. If that player then chooses to abuse that mechanic by doing things that the developers did not intend (playing around with a corpse), it is the fault of the player not the developer. To blame it on the developer for "allowing it" is ideologically motivated deliberate misrepresentation.

In Splinter Cell, you can kill/knock out guard dogs, move and dispose of their bodies, such as by tossing them off a cliff. Is that therefore condoning animal abuse? Or is it simply a game mechanic created to allow players to hide bodies and maintain stealth?

Just what exactly are you demanding here, in the case of Hitman? That it not be possible to interact with the Strippers in any way? That they be invincible NPC's, totally immune to death? Why should the Strippers be a special case and be immune to death & subsequent manipulation of the bodies, whereas all other NPC's (including men, animals, ethnic minorities?) can be moved?

Its not like Hitman allows a player to engage in necrophilia with the dead Strippers. That really would be "deriving a perverse sense of pleasure from desecrating the bodies".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:56:56


 
   
Made in us
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RVA

sirlynchmob wrote:
But they do not go beyond 'hyper' That is a nonsense argument as there is no beyond hyper, it was something that you just made up. You have sexuality, and hyper sexuality.
sirlynchmob wrote:
Strippers are just hard working men & women, usually putting themselves through college. Just because you might have a symptom of sexual addiction, does not mean everyone views them the same way.
I have no idea what you are rambling about. Hyper-hyper-sexuality? Hypersexual disorder?

Being sexualized means emphasizing sexiness. Like trying to look good when going to a party a girl you like will be at. Now if you go to that party -- or to any party -- dressed like a stripper just before the end of his act THAT is being hypersexualized.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:51:55


   
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Why is it that every point anyone makes is drowned out by utter tripe?

And people wonder why these topics never go away.....

I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
nomotog wrote:
It's relevant. All the NPC are relvent in someway or another. None were placed by accident everyone of them has a reason to exist in the game or no one would have taken the time to model them. It is worth it to ask why they are there.


Well of course they weren't placed by accident, but just like extras in a movie, their presence does not make them important or even relevant to the scene at hand.


See now this is when things get tricky. The presents of extras in a movie are relevant and a lot of the times important, but extras don't have lines. The strippers in HM:A have lines. They even have a story. I always considered the strip club to be two levels because the story of the strippers actually caries over into the next level.
   
Made in us
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RVA

 Slarg232 wrote:
Why is it that every point anyone makes is drowned out by utter tripe?
Because you keep posting!

Just joking but you did have it coming with that passive aggressive post.

   
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nomotog wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
nomotog wrote:
It's relevant. All the NPC are relvent in someway or another. None were placed by accident everyone of them has a reason to exist in the game or no one would have taken the time to model them. It is worth it to ask why they are there.


Well of course they weren't placed by accident, but just like extras in a movie, their presence does not make them important or even relevant to the scene at hand.


See now this is when things get tricky. The presents of extras in a movie are relevant and a lot of the times important, but extras don't have lines. The strippers in HM:A have lines. They even have a story. I always considered the strip club to be two levels because the story of the strippers actually caries over into the next level.


Actually extra's do often times do have lines, to either give flavor or to add some extra lines to a scene to either expand it, or the storyline out. Or to worldbuild.
   
Made in us
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 Manchu wrote:
 Slarg232 wrote:
Why is it that every point anyone makes is drowned out by utter tripe?
Because you keep posting!

Just joking but you did have it coming with that passive aggressive post.


I am passively aggressiving the crap out of you right now, with this post, for that. So, be aggressed, passively.



Would anyone else be in favor of stopping the topic, taking the weekend off, everyone watching Sark's vids/reading up on the fallout of Zoe, and bringing a new perspective into this?

I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. 
   
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USA

Why is it that every point anyone makes is drowned out by utter tripe?


Because interwebs.

EDIT: The typing is weak with me today lol

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/29 18:59:39


   
Made in se
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Manchu wrote:
If it was any other way, the internet would just be a product catalog. The whole internet would be Amazon without product reviews.


I know. The similarity just hit me as it was not something I've considered before.

Currently ongoing projects:
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Tyranids  
   
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UK

 Melissia wrote:
 mattyrm wrote:
I posit, that 99.9% of feminist would disagree with some of the seminal points of Anita Sarkeesians video. Therefore, I would say that she is saying what she does, to gain infamy, get a rep, get people talking, and (it always boils down to this in the real world) make money. And as such, there is no need for men to get defensive either, because she is inventing a position that almost no women take to stir up interest.
I'm curious as to which ones these are?

I sort of agree with most of your post, granted.


Well, loads of obvious ones leap out to me. First of all the polarizing views about gamers, they don't stand up in the real world, there is no such thing. My dad mainly does nothing but read, dig the garden, and play golf on my old gamecube, does that make him a gamer?

At 12:11 (I only watched part 1) where she says its all about male power fantasies, when in those days we were all kids, most gamers were under 15 surely? I played games like that when I was 7.. so did millions of others.

When she says that clearly it is a myth than men are more physically strong than women? Its an obvious fact, do feminists deny it in real life? My missus is a feminist, she wouldn't claim she could ever beat me in an arm wrestle, just point out that she is much better at math, english, and almost everything that doesn't involve hewing logs.

Honestly plenty of it is just far too black and white, and she must know it herself. She draws lines in the sand and ignores the shades of grey because controversy makes money.

And I cant blame her for that, shes a businesswoman, but I know loads of women that are pretty into the whole thing, my best mate Muzzy's lass is a pretty hardcore feminist, she does the whole writing and meeting thing, and we talk all the time, she certainly doesnt make such broad sweeping statements about men or "gamers" like Anita does in her video.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
nomotog wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
nomotog wrote:
It's relevant. All the NPC are relvent in someway or another. None were placed by accident everyone of them has a reason to exist in the game or no one would have taken the time to model them. It is worth it to ask why they are there.


Well of course they weren't placed by accident, but just like extras in a movie, their presence does not make them important or even relevant to the scene at hand.


See now this is when things get tricky. The presents of extras in a movie are relevant and a lot of the times important, but extras don't have lines. The strippers in HM:A have lines. They even have a story. I always considered the strip club to be two levels because the story of the strippers actually caries over into the next level.


Actually extra's do often times do have lines, to either give flavor or to add some extra lines to a scene to either expand it, or the storyline out. Or to worldbuild.


I looked this up on the SAG webpage. If an extra has lines or delivers a speech, then they are upgraded to Day Performer. The exception is if they only use Omnies. Omnies are general background noise like gasps, humms and awws.
   
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nomotog wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
nomotog wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
nomotog wrote:
It's relevant. All the NPC are relvent in someway or another. None were placed by accident everyone of them has a reason to exist in the game or no one would have taken the time to model them. It is worth it to ask why they are there.


Well of course they weren't placed by accident, but just like extras in a movie, their presence does not make them important or even relevant to the scene at hand.


See now this is when things get tricky. The presents of extras in a movie are relevant and a lot of the times important, but extras don't have lines. The strippers in HM:A have lines. They even have a story. I always considered the strip club to be two levels because the story of the strippers actually caries over into the next level.


Actually extra's do often times do have lines, to either give flavor or to add some extra lines to a scene to either expand it, or the storyline out. Or to worldbuild.


I looked this up on the SAG webpage. If an extra has lines or delivers a speech, then they are upgraded to Day Performer. The exception is if they only use Omnies. Omnies are general background noise like gasps, humms and awws.


The problem is that vidja garms isn't movies.

I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. 
   
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USA

 Slarg232 wrote:


The problem is that vidja garms isn't movies.


David Cage disagrees and believes you lack courage for thinking differently than him.

   
 
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