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 Kilkrazy wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


Pointing out that there is a trend of "make a male character and add a bow, instead of designing a female character", or a trend of "put every single female character in a chainmail bikini", and that this indicates an undercurrent of sexist thought, is not equivalent to what you just said.

That's true, it's not equivalent to what I just said. But it's also not at all anything like what you said, either. You brought up women being able to "own" their sexuality through choice. That has nothing to do with the preponderance of digital women in chainmail bikinis. It is a statement about how when real-life women dress in scanty outfits, it's OK because they chose to do so. I was pointing out that you cannot apply that standard to video game characters, because fictional people cannot choose anything.

It is not about the fictional characters choosing anything, it is about the creators of such characters choosing things.

I am sure you will grant that visual representations of people represent concepts about real people that actually do matter to real people, otherwise why would Christians have got so furious about Piss Christ for example.

Therefore a character can have meaning and/or impact in the real world. That impact is the result of the choice made by the designer interacting with the existing views and thoughts of the audience.

Don't try to drag me back into this, KillKrazy, I went back to lurking four pages ago.

 Melissia wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, if she can take a scary situation like someone saying stalkerish things, threatening to rape and kill her and her family in horrific ways, and saying they know where she lives (including posting an address)... and make that in to something that helps her, instead of being silenced?

Good for her.

I see no reason to let abusers like that win in the end.

I disagree with a lot of what she says and I utterly loathe her "research" methodology and belligerent rhetoric ...but yes, I hope the FBI can track down the fethers making the most serious threats of violence (as opposed to online loser Trolls).

She certainly has a degree of personal courage and stoicism.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Citation needed. WHY is it irrelevant?

Because a "small part" of a piece of media can still make the whole thing bad, or at least less good than it could have been. Therefor, it is still worthy of discussion to the extent which it does so for each player.

This is many peoples' position about Sarkesian's videos, for that matter, would you say taht they shouldn't talk about her videos because they only have a problem with a small part of them?

No, I would say that they shouldn't take one aspect of it out of context. Which is what Anita does, frequently.

Also I don't believe you when you say that people only have problems with small parts of her videos...there is a HELL of a lot that I take issue with (as do most Youtubers I've seen).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I can kill someone with a kitchen knife. Maybe even a spoon if I use my imagination. That does not mean I'm "meant" to interact with cutlery in that way.

Real life is not a game. This analogy you give does not work. Games are designed and tailored sets of interactions, each possible interaction is crafted in to the game, and undesired interactions are removed from the game, as the designers see fit. Real life is not like that.

You're assuming that the Developers actually considered this particular possibility in development and deliberately left it in so players could do it. The Strippers were designated as non-combatant / innocent NPC's. The game includes a mechanic that allows the bodies of non-combatants killed (accidentally or intentionally) to be moved and hidden or disposed of.

Again, being able to kill, move and hide bodies is a game mechanic thats not specific to women. Why do you specifically have a problem with players having the freedom to kill women in Hitmen? (specifically the Strippers?). Do you feel the same way about other NPC's like men? How about minority groups?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Just what exactly are you demanding here, in the case of Hitman?

I'm not demanding anything of the game.

Fine. Let me rephrase it. What changes would have to be made to this specific part of the Hitman game [i](the strip club) to satisfy your definition of sexism?

Make the Strippers invincible NPC's?
Change the strippers' dress to something less revealing and sexualised?
Change the level to a different setting, say a diner, with female kitchen staff?
Remove the game mechanic that allows players to kill innocents and move/hide their bodies altogether?

I don't get why you think the Developers actively wanted players to kill the Strippers and "desecrate" their bodies.

How the hell does this...

Games are designed and tailored sets of interactions, each possible interaction is crafted in to the game, and undesired interactions are removed from the game, as the designers see fit.

apply to this situation?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
No, I would say that they shouldn't take one aspect of it out of context. Which is what Anita does, frequently.

Except that's not what she does. She talks about the context of the games as they appear to her. Just because you don't get that context doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that you aren't seeing it, for whatever reason.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Also I don't believe you when you say that people only have problems with small parts of her videos...there is a HELL of a lot that I take issue with (as do most Youtubers I've seen).

So what? You aren't everyone. I only said "many people", IE, a good number of people I know.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You're assuming that the Developers actually considered this particular possibility

If they produced disincentives for the action, they obviously did think about it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Fine. Let me rephrase it. What changes would have to be made to this specific part of the Hitman game [i](the strip club) to satisfy your definition of sexism?

Nothing. I never said I'd make change to specific games. I would, however, encourage the industry as a whole to let go of the trend of using dead / scantily clad / in peril / all of the above women characters to sell their game, when, frankly, the industry CAN do better.

As a thought, wouldn't it make more sense for them to wear a robe or something when they are off stage. That seems to be a thing with people who perform mostly naked. They put on robes when they aren't on camera/stage.

 Melissia wrote:
If they produced disincentives for the action, they obviously did think about it.

That is part of the “mechanic that allows the bodies of non-combatants killed (accidentally or intentionally) to be moved and hidden or disposed of”

 Melissia wrote:
I would, however, encourage the industry as a whole to let go of the trend of using dead / scantily clad / in peril / all of the above women characters to sell their game, when, frankly, the industry CAN do better.

Or at least provide equal-opportunity undressing, like in this game:


Okay, can someone explain to me what I just watched?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, apparently the video description explain a bit:
“Fight to save a near-perfect replica of Japan's anime and game mecca from man-made vampires the only way you know how: by stripping them so they melt in the sun! ”
Wait, is that the sound of my brain melting?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

“Fight to save a near-perfect replica of Japan's anime and game mecca from man-made vampires the only way you know how: by stripping them so they melt in the sun! ”
Wait, is that the sound of my brain melting?

It's a Japanese gag game. Try not to think about too much If I worked for the CIA, I'd use these things as torture devices

 Melissia wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
No, I would say that they shouldn't take one aspect of it out of context. Which is what Anita does, frequently.

Except that's not what she does. She talks about the context of the games as they appear to her. Just because you don't get that context doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Please tell me more about how Anita's criticism of Hitman for "encouraging players to get a perverse pleasure out of desecrating the dead bodies of women" is not blatantly misrepresenting and taking the game out of context.

Citation needed. WHY is it irrelevant?

Because a "small part" of a piece of media can still make the whole thing bad, or at least less good than it could have been. Therefor, it is still worthy of discussion to the extent which it does so for each player.

This is many peoples' position about Sarkesian's videos, for that matter, would you say taht they shouldn't talk about her videos because they only have a problem with a small part of them?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
That is part of the “mechanic that allows the bodies of non-combatants killed (accidentally or intentionally) to be moved and hidden or disposed of”

Therefor, they clearly did think about it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Wait, is that the sound of my brain melting?

Japan, man.

Just... Japan.

Therefor, they clearly did think about it.

I'm very sure that when thinking on it, they didn't think someone would potentially create a nazi symbol out of the corpses of men and women next to a symbol of Victor Von Doom, but that's not what the game is about or intending.

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
That is part of the “mechanic that allows the bodies of non-combatants killed (accidentally or intentionally) to be moved and hidden or disposed of”

Therefor, they clearly did think about it.

But its not specific to women. Why do you think female NPC's should be the exception to this mechanic?

And why do you assume that the Developers ever considered that players would choose to do this?

Do you believe the Developers themselves did this during development, arranging and handling female corpses in humiliating ways? You think this was a deliberate outcome foreseen by the Developers?

It is worth taking the time to grok this:

Pointing out the problematic aspects of a game does not amount to absolutely condemning

- the game
- everyone involved in creating it
- everyone who profited from it
- everyone who enjoyed it

Pretty much every part of our lives entails something problematic. Just think of the complex systems of trade and labor implicated in the clothes you are currently wearing. Recognizing that those systems entail human suffering does not require you to tear off your clothes or only wear clothes you make yourself.

"Problematic" does not necessarily mean bad or inferior. It just signifies that something is too complicated to take for granted. It signifies that something requires cautious reflection and critical thought.

If you think video games or video game characters do not merit critical thinking then why would you care about any of this in the first place?

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
That is part of the “mechanic that allows the bodies of non-combatants killed (accidentally or intentionally) to be moved and hidden or disposed of”

Therefor, they clearly did think about it.

Not only did they think about it, they put a corpse hiding box right next to them. Then again, that might be there so you can hide in it and spy on them.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Please tell me more about how Anita's criticism of Hitman for "encouraging players to get a perverse pleasure out of desecrating the dead bodies of women" is not blatantly misrepresenting and taking the game out of context.

Because it doesn't.
She believes it does, because it allows for people to do it and get away with it. I already explained why she sees it this way, in fact, and that I disagree with her. To reiterate: she believes that violence is a male power fantasy, and that violent games are bad by default, while cooperative, non-violent games are feminine and good by default. From this philosophical framework (which, to reiterate, I disagree with), it's quite easy to see how she might interpret the game in such a way.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You say this, that "a small part of a piece of media can make the whole thing bad"...and yet refuse to even discuss the specific example I am discussing and which Anita herself discusses which (in your words) "makes the whole thing bad".

I'm discussing it right now. I simply refuse to let you be lazy and just link videos and say "yeah, well respond to THIS!".

Also, I sad "bad, or at least less good". Not just "bad".

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Ditto for you.

I never claimed to be everyone. I simply speak for myself. You should try to do the same.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

If they produced disincentives for the action, they obviously did think about it.

In the specific example (Hitman) that I'm talking about and which Anita herself talks about, the developers did not produce an incentive for the action. They actively punished it.

If you had a point, you have failed to make it. in the part of the post you quoted, I clearly suggested that they made disincentives for those actions.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We've been over this over and over again in this thread, and you still have not responded to it.

Just because you refuse to read what I have posted doesn't mean I haven't posted it.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Agreed. however, the difference is I don't seek to censor video games

Neither does Sarkesian.

Perhaps someday you will be able to admit that to yourself. Right now, though, this argument is getting circular. If you want to pretend I never responded to your posts, that's your prerogative I suppose, but mine is to ignore you for doing so.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
"encouraging players to get a perverse pleasure out of desecrating the dead bodies of women"

Who are you quoting? All I know is you are not quoting Sarkeesian.

 Manchu wrote:
It is worth taking the time to grok this:

Pointing out the problematic aspects of a game does not amount to absolutely condemning

- the game
- everyone involved in creating it
- everyone who profited from it
- everyone who enjoyed it

Pretty much every part of our lives entails something problematic. Just think of the complex systems of trade and labor implicated in the clothes you are currently wearing. Recognizing that those systems entail human suffering does not require you to tear off your clothes or only wear clothes you make yourself.

"Problematic" does not necessarily mean bad or inferior. It just signifies that something is too complicated to take for granted. It signifies that something requires cautious reflection and critical thought.

If you think video games or video game characters do not merit critical thinking then why would you care about any of this in the first place?

Thats all well and good. Can't disagree with any of that.

Except the fact that the specific "problem" I am discussing is a falsehood - the game did not reward and encourage players to "get a perverse pleasure out of desecrating dead women".

Basically, that argument, though I agree with it, does not apply to this case.

 LordofHats wrote:
Try not to think about too much

Actually, if it was available on PC rather than only Playstation, and there was a Linux version, I would buy it, I think. Since my brain is becoming resistant to even Vampire Girl versus Frankenstein Girl-like movies, I need something else to melt it.

 Melissia wrote:
Japan, man.

Just... Japan.

We should change the word weird for Japanese. Instead of saying “This game is very weird”, we would say “This game is very Japanese”. For instance, Mr Oizo might be a French guy, but then we would say he makes very Japanese movies.

I am wondering. How many people here talking about HM:A have played HM:A?

 Melissia wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, if she can take a scary situation like someone saying stalkerish things, threatening to rape and kill her and her family in horrific ways, and saying they know where she lives (including posting an address)... and make that in to something that helps her, instead of being silenced?

Good for her.

I see no reason to let abusers like that win in the end.

This is, of course, assuming that these threats are/were really posted by another person. There was that picture posted earlier in the thread, questioning how she or anyone could see these "threats" based on being logged out. Plus, the timing and perfect grammar in many of the threats that would suggest a preplanned and staged event in order to draw more attention and, eventually money to her/her cause.

I don't use Twitter, so I cannot really comment on the actual picture itself.. But, I'd like to think that if she actually did go to the authorities that they take her down just as quickly as an actual perpetrator, IF she was the one who masterminded or orchestrated the whole thing.

Other than that, yeah, I hope that if the threats were real that she "wins" by seeing the people who did it in jail. I don't wish to see her financially gain from it (which it looks like she will here) as that is a pretty sick way of earning money, IMO.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't remember her saying that, but I think most feminists would agree there are differences between the genders; the disagreement becomes "how big is it, and what causes it".

She does Mel, I just flicked through to get the exact words... at 21:37 on her video she says..

"The belief that woman are somehow a naturally weaker sex is a deeply ingrained, socially constructed myth, which of course is completely false, and the notion is reinforced and perpetuated because women are continuously portrayed as frail"

And that was that basically made me go "Ok so she doesn't actually believe this herself then"

Do you know what I mean? Actual women don't argue such a daft point. And I think this whole tired argument is false at heart, and its why everybody is getting wound up. The vast majority of men aren't dickless losers who get so angry about feminism that they have to savagely mock women to make themselves feel better. The vast majority of men laugh and tell people their wife is in charge, and they don't get upset by strong women. Case in point, men helped vote Margret Thatcher into power.

And the vast majority of women, certainly do not subscribe to the always-offended fictional ideology that internet businesswomen preach online. They don't believe in it, and I don't believe that the women delivering the speeches do either.

Its why here in the real world, women and men get along so well, and real incidents of genuine misogyny and misandry are pretty few and far between.

Well... unless you live in a country that practices Sharia law obviously.

 Manchu wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
"encouraging players to get a perverse pleasure out of desecrating the dead bodies of women"

Who are you quoting? All I know is you are not quoting Sarkeesian.

From her own video;

Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters.

Players are meant to derive as opposed to 'encouraging' but I think that little bit of semantics is kind of negligeable here.

Nothing in that section of Hitman: Absolution remotely supports the conclusions she was trying to draw about it (very strange conclusions). She picked a terrible example to make a terrible point.

Actually more shocking, and evidence that maybe she doesn't actually know the game's plot at all, is that there is a part of the game where she could have made this point; Earlier in the game when killing the assassin nuns, who were just as (if not more) provocatively dressed and whose deaths were an actual game objective. They're even in the trailer;

 Melissia wrote:
To reiterate: she believes that violence is a male power fantasy, and that violent games are bad by default, while cooperative, non-violent games are feminine and good by default.

I am not sure where you got that from, because her proposed game scenario seems as violent as most cartoonish video games are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZKtFfHIGrA

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I don't wish to see her financially gain from it (which it looks like she will here) as that is a pretty sick way of earning money, IMO.

I see nothing sick about that. In fact, I think it's poetic justice.

 mattyrm wrote:
Well... unless you live in a country that practices Sharia law obviously.

Or India, from what I heard.

 LordofHats wrote:

Damn that was fun!

 mattyrm wrote:
Its why here in the real world, women and men get along so well, and real incidents of genuine misogyny [...] are pretty few and far between.

I wouldn't go that far. But then again, I live in a state where people are constantly trying to put a Christian version of Sharia Law in to effect.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
"encouraging players to get a perverse pleasure out of desecrating the dead bodies of women"

Who are you quoting? All I know is you are not quoting Sarkeesian.

From her own video;

Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters.

Players are meant to derive as opposed to 'encouraging' but I think that little bit of semantics is kind of negligeable here.

Nothing in that section of Hitman: Absolution remotely supports the conclusions she was trying to draw about it (very strange conclusions). She picked a terrible example to make a terrible point.

Actually more shocking, and evidence that maybe she doesn't actually know the game's plot at all, is that there is a part of the game where she could have made this point; Earlier in the game when killing the assassin nuns, who were just as (if not more) provocatively dressed and whose deaths were an actual game objective. They're even in the trailer;

The assassin nuns come after the strip club. After the part I played even.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Damn that was fun!

I make it my mission in life to up the fun factor.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:


The assassin nuns come after the strip club. After the part I played even.

(apparently I'm unclear on the plot too )

 Melissia wrote:
But then again, I live in a state where people are constantly trying to put a Christian version of Sharia Law in to effect.

Well, hopefully that cannot be anywhere as bad as Saudia Arabia, or even the IRI…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
But then again, I live in a state where people are constantly trying to put a Christian version of Sharia Law in to effect.

Well, hopefully that cannot be anywhere as bad as Saudia Arabia, or even the IRI…

Well, if they're half as bad as the Wesboro Baptist Church...then hes screwed!

 LordofHats wrote:

nomotog wrote:


The assassin nuns come after the strip club. After the part I played even.

(apparently I'm unclear on the plot too )

OK I got to call it then. A lot of people re accusing the video of showing the scene out of context when they don't even know the context. I mean if someone knows and played HM:A they might not want to try and defend it. Yes the example in the tropes Vs women video isn't in context, but putting it in context doesn't make it better because the context is a game that has some strange issues with women and sexuality. (That is the case with some of the other images she shows. They are out of context, but putting them in context doesn't help.)

 LordofHats wrote:
Players are meant to derive as opposed to 'encouraging' but I think that little bit of semantics is kind of negligeable here.

To the contrary, the claim that Sarkeesian is a liar hinges upon the word. The game does not encourage desecrating female characters' bodies as a matter of game play mechanics. And contrary to the strawman argument lodged against her, Sarkeesian does not claim as much. But are players meant to enjoy doing so? She does claim that. And it's a more complicated question ... unless you are pre-committed to Sarkeesian being ignorant and a terrible person. Now she could be biased -- you know, looking at the game from her own perspective -- but that is certainly different from being a FILTHY LIAR, etc.