Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

nomotog wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
said there is no repercussion for killing them

Could you post the source backing that up?

Try playing the game rather then taking Anitas word for it. If the women see you, they scream and you are swarmed by guards, you hit them, they screamed and you are swarmed by guards, you use a gun you are swarmed by guards. You ignore the dancers for the most part and go in for the target. Its 1 out of 20 chapter and all of 5 minutes.

The game is about stealth, you get actively punished for killing civilians, the scene Anita uses in her video has her dragging the body using the longest route possible while stepping on the other body. You really have to go out of your way to do what Anita shows.

Try 2:30 seconds to 6 minutes ish

You know I just noticed this. The person who made that video didn't play the game. They just watched people playing it. I mean I get why you would want to avoid it. It's not the best game out there, but if your going to try and talk about it it might be helpful to play it. If all you do is watch a small amount of a lets play, you might get a inaccurate picture. It gets even more funny when he says that Anita filmed the footage herself. That implies that she has played a game that he hasn't.

Edit: I can't believe I didn't notice this before. Knocking out a person is only a -100, but hiding a body in a box is a +100. It's not a score punishment to knock them out, drag their body around and then dump it in the conveniently placed body box.

I guess another thing to notice is there are videos of players doing creepy things in the strip club on youtube.

Hmph.. yeah that was pretty ridiculous. She seems to be just inventing things in her head, using big words, and then spitting them out trying to sound like she has some immense knowledge that we dont share.

I mean.. I didnt even get all of that mouthful.. what was it.. "the player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted on, because they were placed there for that singlar purpose..."

er... I played Hitman 2, I didn't kill any women. And even if I had to because it was a mission, I could "help" but treat those female bodies that way, by turning it off.

The more I watch the more I dislike her and find her conclusions to be ludicrous. As I said though, shes smart, she probably knows its all bollocks herself.

nomotog wrote:


You know I just noticed this. The person who made that video didn't play the game. They just watched people playing it. I mean I get why you would want to avoid it. It's not the best game out there, but if your going to try and talk about it it might be helpful to play it. If all you do is watch a small amount of a lets play, you might get a inaccurate picture. It gets even more funny when he says that Anita filmed the footage herself. That implies that she has played a game that he hasn't.

Edit: I can't believe I didn't notice this before. Knocking out a person is only a -100, but hiding a body in a box is a +100. It's not a score punishment to knock them out, drag their body around and then dump it in the conveniently placed body box.

I guess another thing to notice is there are videos of players doing creepy things in the strip club on youtube.

Yeah there is a lot of creepy vids with actual misogynists using them, but that's the same with any game, even smash bros has weird creepos.

If you go and watch the play throughs it is such a small amount of time in the strip club that its hard to focus in on it, normal people just breeze through it.

On that note, I'd like to see Anita play Outlast, and see what she has to say.

 mattyrm wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
said there is no repercussion for killing them

Could you post the source backing that up?

Try playing the game rather then taking Anitas word for it. If the women see you, they scream and you are swarmed by guards, you hit them, they screamed and you are swarmed by guards, you use a gun you are swarmed by guards. You ignore the dancers for the most part and go in for the target. Its 1 out of 20 chapter and all of 5 minutes.

The game is about stealth, you get actively punished for killing civilians, the scene Anita uses in her video has her dragging the body using the longest route possible while stepping on the other body. You really have to go out of your way to do what Anita shows.

Try 2:30 seconds to 6 minutes ish

You know I just noticed this. The person who made that video didn't play the game. They just watched people playing it. I mean I get why you would want to avoid it. It's not the best game out there, but if your going to try and talk about it it might be helpful to play it. If all you do is watch a small amount of a lets play, you might get a inaccurate picture. It gets even more funny when he says that Anita filmed the footage herself. That implies that she has played a game that he hasn't.

Edit: I can't believe I didn't notice this before. Knocking out a person is only a -100, but hiding a body in a box is a +100. It's not a score punishment to knock them out, drag their body around and then dump it in the conveniently placed body box.

I guess another thing to notice is there are videos of players doing creepy things in the strip club on youtube.

Hmph.. yeah that was pretty ridiculous. She seems to be just inventing things in her head, using big words, and then spitting them out trying to sound like she has some immense knowledge that we dont share.

I mean.. I didnt even get all of that mouthful.. what was it.. "the player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted on, because they were placed there for that singlar purpose..."

er... I played Hitman 2, I didn't kill any women. And even if I had to because it was a mission, I could "help" but treat those female bodies that way, by turning it off.

The more I watch the more I dislike her and find her conclusions to be ludicrous. As I said though, shes smart, she probably knows its all bollocks herself.

That video isn't a Sarkeesian video. It's a video by someone who is arguing that Sarkeesian is laying in her videos. The thing is, that after reviewing some lets plays of the leveling, I have to call foul. This video seems to imply that people move in and out of that level without doing anything misogynistic. They would have had to cheery pick lets play videos to get that impression. Every one I have watched involves different levels of misogynistic from threatening the strippers with guns, to making sexist comments about the female characters. (Then there was a video top five things to do in the strip club.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

nomotog wrote:


You know I just noticed this. The person who made that video didn't play the game. They just watched people playing it. I mean I get why you would want to avoid it. It's not the best game out there, but if your going to try and talk about it it might be helpful to play it. If all you do is watch a small amount of a lets play, you might get a inaccurate picture. It gets even more funny when he says that Anita filmed the footage herself. That implies that she has played a game that he hasn't.

Edit: I can't believe I didn't notice this before. Knocking out a person is only a -100, but hiding a body in a box is a +100. It's not a score punishment to knock them out, drag their body around and then dump it in the conveniently placed body box.

I guess another thing to notice is there are videos of players doing creepy things in the strip club on youtube.

Yeah there is a lot of creepy vids with actual misogynists using them, but that's the same with any game, even smash bros has weird creepos.

If you go and watch the play throughs it is such a small amount of time in the strip club that its hard to focus in on it, normal people just breeze through it.

On that note, I'd like to see Anita play Outlast, and see what she has to say.

Why do we have so many people doing creepy things in lets plays. I am watching one now that is just vile and I am thinking why is this happening? Is this normal? Should it be normal? Is there something we can change to make this not so normal? Maybe there is a problem here?

nomotog wrote:


That video isn't a Sarkeesian video. It's a video by someone who is arguing that Sarkeesian is laying in her videos. The thing is, that after reviewing some lets plays of the leveling, I have to call foul. This video seems to imply that people move in and out of that level without doing anything misogynistic. They would have had to cheery pick lets play videos to get that impression. Every one I have watched involves different levels of misogynistic from threatening the strippers with guns, to making sexist comments about the female characters. (Then there was a video top five things to do in the strip club.)

Yeah but that's not the point, if you go back and break it to do bizarre stuff that's on you, you cant paint everyone that plays the game as a misogynist. I can go and replay borderlands and only shoot people in the dick. Its like in real life, if someone makes the conscious choice to go do something horrible (like assault on women) you cant blame every single person (in this case men) with one draconian stroke.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:


Why do we have so many people doing creepy things in lets plays. I am watching one now that is just vile and I am thinking why is this happening? Is this normal? Should it be normal? Is there something we can change to make this not so normal? Maybe there is a problem here?

Oh I saw the same videos, those people are bent, that's the few that ruin it for everyone, those are the types that say the garbage to Anita and fuel her crowd funding schemes.

As for the solution, I couldn't tell you, flagging them could trigger more misplaced hate, stopping games from allowing their escapism fantasy could bleed out into the real world.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:


Hmph.. yeah that was pretty ridiculous. She seems to be just inventing things in her head, using big words, and then spitting them out trying to sound like she has some immense knowledge that we dont share.

I mean.. I didnt even get all of that mouthful.. what was it.. "the player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted on, because they were placed there for that singlar purpose..."

er... I played Hitman 2, I didn't kill any women. And even if I had to because it was a mission, I could "help" but treat those female bodies that way, by turning it off.

The more I watch the more I dislike her and find her conclusions to be ludicrous. As I said though, shes smart, she probably knows its all bollocks herself.

Go look up her relation to Bart Baggart.

Yeah I just did, nasty business, proved me right though eh?

She is a smart businesswoman/borderline fraudster.

I doubt she gives two feths about feminism. I know plenty and none of them draw the same mental conclusions that she does.

wait a min, working on links

What? How is Sarkeesian a "borderline fraudster"?

Matty, you don't have to appear centrist to look cool

 Melissia wrote:
Matty, you don't have to appear centrist to look cool

Haha.... Im not trying to be centrist, thats been my whole thing since I got here!

I don't believe that most of the "internet entrepreneurs" actually believe half the gak they say, they make controversy to get googled, and fething rake it in, and Anita did it like a boss. Hats off to her. If she can come across that way to all the feminists with spare cash, more power to her.

Regards the fraud gak Manchu, I just googled her and the name that bloke sent me, and read this page.

http://anongamer.tumblr.com/

She just seems like a typical cynical businesswoman right? Which Is what said in the first place. Its like I was saying to Mel earlier, do you honestly believe that she believes some of the more wacky stuff she says? That whole thing about Hitman was flat out nuts, either she is a lunatic, or she is saying it because she is smart and she wants to generate interest, the latter seems far more likely because she is articulate and clearly intelligent.

Seriously some of that gak in the last video reminded me of those really bad critics, you know.. did you see that video of Ian McEwan talking about how he helped his daughter do her homework and the paper was on one of his books? He said she got a D or something, and the teacher said something like "Oh actually that man was supposed to be analogous of the unending struggle blah blah blah blah... modernism... blah blah... contextually...(Anita style hypothesis) and then Ian McEwan said at a conference.. "er.. no.. he was just a terrible man"

You know what I mean? That kinda.. critic gak. Its fine if you can come up with it. I can sit here and say "Oh well I think Tolkien really meant that the ring was the government, and by casting it into mount doom he really meant that he wanted to burn down our capitalist society and convert us all to wicca because Sauron was actually supposed to represent Christianity" but it wouldn't make it anything other than fething nonsense would it!

Anyway, I'm ranting. My point is she doesn't act like any fething feminist I know. I doubt she means everything she says, because if she practiced pleasant normal everyday feminism then nobody would know who she is, they are ten a penny. Its all about the big bucks when you get into these Youtube famous, Kickstarter media types!

 mattyrm wrote:
Anyway, I'm ranting. My point is she doesn't act like any fething feminist I know

Neither do feminists in Germany act like any I know in the USA (the different reactions to Wikipedia editors combining/separating women categories was a good example).

It's a widely disparate movement at times, and I'm very hesitant to claim someone isn't honestly a part of it just because I disagree with them. I'll gladly say they're wrong of course, I rarely have a problem doing that

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Anyway, I'm ranting. My point is she doesn't act like any fething feminist I know

Neither do feminists in Germany act like any I know in the USA (the different reactions to Wikipedia editors combining/separating women categories was a good example).

It's a widely disparate movement at times, and I'm very hesitant to claim someone isn't honestly a part of it just because I disagree with them. I'll gladly say they're wrong of course, I rarely have a problem doing that

Yes but all I'm saying is that.. well.. the whole words silly really. Its like "gamer" (as we discussed) we have to pigeonhole people to make discussions make sense, but its fething silly if you think about it. Jesus, about 4 billion people must qualify as gamers in this day and age, and surely feminists are the same right?

Am I one? I like to think so. What about my Dad? Or my wife, or my pleasant not even remotely sexist but unaware of the concept 5 year old nephew?

My point is, ok yes she IS a feminist, most of us are in this day and age. But I doubt she believes all that she says because you don't become an internet personality if you don't spice things up a bit.

And while I give her credit for her business savvy, obviously I cant agree with lots what she says because it is a little nuts, and If I got her in a room alone and bought her a pint, she would probably pleasantly admit that, and then school me on how to succeed in marketing.

 Manchu wrote:
What? How is Sarkeesian a "borderline fraudster"?

People have explained that patiently to you for multiple pages, and your response has been to desperately try and argue semantics at best and outright ignoring posts that refute what you have to say at worst. There's very little point in engaging you when you're not going to argue in anything even remotely resembling good faith and simply troll.

 mattyrm wrote:
do you honestly believe that she believes some of the more wacky stuff she says?

I think the stuff she said about Hitman reveals something about her perspective, what could be called her bias or taste, when it comes to how she thinks about these games. It is clearly very, very different from how I think about the game. I don't think that perspective, even for its exaggeration, clearly demonstrates she is a cynical charlatan trolling for dollars/internet fame. I also don't think that perspective is so totally incomprehensible such that she must either be a malicious liar or insane. I should hope such accounts are clearly disproportionate.

 Manchu wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
do you honestly believe that she believes some of the more wacky stuff she says?

I think the stuff she said about Hitman reveals something about her perspective, what could be called her bias or taste, when it comes to how she thinks about these games. It is clearly very, very different from how I think about the game. I don't think that perspective, even for its exaggeration, clearly demonstrates she is a cynical charlatan trolling for dollars/internet fame. I also don't think that perspective is so totally incomprehensible such that she must either be a malicious liar or insane. I should hope such accounts are clearly disproportionate.

Blatant misrepresentation is not a matter of perspective. It's a matter of blatant misrepresentation, which is often a characteristic of fraud.

Seaward wrote:Blatant misrepresentation is not a matter of perspective. It's a matter of blatant misrepresentation, which is often a characteristic of fraud.

I guess that means we've got a lot of fraudsters on dakka, then, considering how quick certain people in this thread are to misrepresent entire groups of people, repeat information that has already been proven false, or attempt to put words into other board members' virtual mouths.

If their perspective is not the cause of this behaviour, then I'd be interested to hear what is.

nomotog wrote:
[code] That has got to be a trope. The woman who is tortured and then as a result becomes super powerful. Not really a whole gendered trope seeing as it's the origin story for a lot of guys with powers too. Someone make a video on this topic. It might be neat to look into

Well...it does sort of make sense. That trope is similar to the whole survival of the fittest thing.
It's even present in Wh40k; the Space Marine creation process isn't...pleasant.
It would be indeed interesting to explore.

 Ravenous D wrote:

nomotog wrote:


Why do we have so many people doing creepy things in lets plays. I am watching one now that is just vile and I am thinking why is this happening? Is this normal? Should it be normal? Is there something we can change to make this not so normal? Maybe there is a problem here?

Oh I saw the same videos, those people are bent, that's the few that ruin it for everyone, those are the types that say the garbage to Anita and fuel her crowd funding schemes.

As for the solution, I couldn't tell you, flagging them could trigger more misplaced hate, stopping games from allowing their escapism fantasy could bleed out into the real world.

I guess, but do you ever worry that it's not the few? Like what if this feeling is actually more prevalent then that. Like it might be some thing that is just under the surface just waiting to explode at the slightest prick. I can't be the only one who worries about that can I?

nomotog wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

nomotog wrote:


Why do we have so many people doing creepy things in lets plays. I am watching one now that is just vile and I am thinking why is this happening? Is this normal? Should it be normal? Is there something we can change to make this not so normal? Maybe there is a problem here?

Oh I saw the same videos, those people are bent, that's the few that ruin it for everyone, those are the types that say the garbage to Anita and fuel her crowd funding schemes.

As for the solution, I couldn't tell you, flagging them could trigger more misplaced hate, stopping games from allowing their escapism fantasy could bleed out into the real world.

I guess, but do you ever worry that it's not the few? Like what if this feeling is actually more prevalent then that. Like it might be some thing that is just under the surface just waiting to explode at the slightest prick. I can't be the only one who worries about that can I?

If it wasn't the few who were this ready to explode at the slightest prick, Sark would have been run out of the country by now.

Like one of the videos that no one watched said; If you took 100 people in suits and ties, put them into cubicals, and made it their job to attack Sark/Zoe, you would end up with a very LARGE amount of hatred directed at them.

Look at this thread and the other, and how fast it's gone to 19 pages/9 pages; There are maybe six people discussing this back and forth. It doesn't take many people to raise a stink.

 Lynata wrote:
[I guess that means we've got a lot of fraudsters on dakka, then, considering how quick certain people in this thread are to misrepresent entire groups of people, repeat information that has already been proven false, or attempt to put words into other board members' virtual mouths.

True, but you're not allowed to say negative things like that about the mods.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I stopped addressing them because I refuse to debate with someone who does not play fair. Making claims and not supporting them is gak and I won't be subjugated to baseless ranting

You are dishonest. How am I going to address you being incapable of understanding an sentence of the video by addressing the video, for instance?
"Ok, so we’ve established that the Damsel in Distress trope is one of the most widely used gendered cliché in the history of video games and has been core to the popularization and development of gaming as a medium." is totally not the same thing as “ is not the same thing as “Every video game ever in the history of forever has always used the Damsel trope”. Fact. But how do I prove that which should be obvious to anyone with basic comprehension skill by quoting Anita's video? The quote is already here, in front of your eyes, and the problem is that you cannot even understand it!
Another example: when you say “Calling all men sexist makes you sexist.”, while she never said anything like this, how do I quote the video to disprove you? She never said so, which mean the only way would be to quote the whole goddamn transcript of all episodes of the series. Can you not see how that would be ridiculous?

 Slarg232 wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

nomotog wrote:


Why do we have so many people doing creepy things in lets plays. I am watching one now that is just vile and I am thinking why is this happening? Is this normal? Should it be normal? Is there something we can change to make this not so normal? Maybe there is a problem here?

Oh I saw the same videos, those people are bent, that's the few that ruin it for everyone, those are the types that say the garbage to Anita and fuel her crowd funding schemes.

As for the solution, I couldn't tell you, flagging them could trigger more misplaced hate, stopping games from allowing their escapism fantasy could bleed out into the real world.

I guess, but do you ever worry that it's not the few? Like what if this feeling is actually more prevalent then that. Like it might be some thing that is just under the surface just waiting to explode at the slightest prick. I can't be the only one who worries about that can I?

If it wasn't the few who were this ready to explode at the slightest prick, Sark would have been run out of the country by now.

Like one of the videos that no one watched said; If you took 100 people in suits and ties, put them into cubicals, and made it their job to attack Sark/Zoe, you would end up with a very LARGE amount of hatred directed at them.

Look at this thread and the other, and how fast it's gone to 19 pages/9 pages; There are maybe six people discussing this back and forth. It doesn't take many people to raise a stink.

That makes sense. It isn't really hard for a minority to look like the majority if they are dedicated to the cause. I just worry I guess. It's out of habit that evry now and then I question of the way I see things is accurate to the truth or just what I would like to see.

Seaward wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
[I guess that means we've got a lot of fraudsters on dakka, then, considering how quick certain people in this thread are to misrepresent entire groups of people, repeat information that has already been proven false, or attempt to put words into other board members' virtual mouths.

True, but you're not allowed to say negative things like that about the mods.

Not true, I've gotten into arguments (Full blown arguments) with the mods on multiple occasions. Only been suspended once, and that was when Mel had that happen.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I stopped addressing them because I refuse to debate with someone who does not play fair. Making claims and not supporting them is gak and I won't be subjugated to baseless ranting

You are dishonest. How am I going to address you being incapable of understanding an sentence of the video by addressing the video, for instance?
"Ok, so we’ve established that the Damsel in Distress trope is one of the most widely used gendered cliché in the history of video games and has been core to the popularization and development of gaming as a medium." is totally not the same thing as “ is not the same thing as “Every video game ever in the history of forever has always used the Damsel trope”. Fact. But how do I prove that which should be obvious to anyone with basic comprehension skill by quoting Anita's video? The quote is already here, in front of your eyes, and the problem is that you cannot even understand it!
Another example: when you say “Calling all men sexist makes you sexist.”, while she never said anything like this, how do I quote the video to disprove you? She never said so, which mean the only way would be to quote the whole goddamn transcript of all episodes of the series. Can you not see how that would be ridiculous?

This is happening on both sides, though, as evidenced with the whole Hitman conversation that happened a few pages back:

Sark: Players are meant to kill and derive perverse pleasure in messing with the strippers bodies!

All Evidence: Points are deducted from killing these strippers, and "playing with the corpses" will get you caught in a hurry.

Several people arguing on that side: SARK SAID IT, IT MUST BE TRUE.

It became very clear that very few people played that game.

 mattyrm wrote:
Hmph.. yeah that was pretty ridiculous. She seems to be just inventing things in her head, using big words, and then spitting them out trying to sound like she has some immense knowledge that we dont share.

I mean.. I didnt even get all of that mouthful.. what was it.. "the player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted on, because they were placed there for that singlar purpose..."

er... I played Hitman 2, I didn't kill any women. And even if I had to because it was a mission, I could "help" but treat those female bodies that way, by turning it off.

The more I watch the more I dislike her and find her conclusions to be ludicrous. As I said though, shes smart, she probably knows its all bollocks herself.

The Media laps this stuff up though. Theres good money to be made in this sort of professional offence seeking and moral crusading.

Gotta credit Anita for this at least. Shes a very savvy businesswoman and knows her market well.

nomotog wrote:
It became very clear that very few people played that game.

I did, beat it too! I'm a big hitman fan.

Which is why it annoys me when someone tries to mis-represent it as something it aint.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It became very clear that very few people played that game.

I did, beat it too! I'm a big hitman fan.

Which is why it annoys me when someone tries to mis-represent it as something it aint.

Plus there is this:

Basically, any video that says someone is "not a real gamer" has nothing of value to say.

text removed.

reds8n

 Melissia wrote:
Basically, any video that says someone is "not a real gamer" has nothing of value to say.

Did you actually watch it or just assume that it has nothing of value?

You've done that at least one other time in this thread.

You do realize that the phrase "not a real gamer" stinks of elitism, right? And it has it has the unfortunate history of being used conjunction the phrase "fake geek girl?" The whole belief that some games are more "authentic" than others is extremely problematic.

I can certainly understand someone knowing that history being hesitant to watch a video with that title.

*edited for typos.