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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 04:48:32
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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So, just popped onto my email, and saw a message from SquareEnix... Ya know, the guys behind Final Fantasy, and a bunch of other games. They were being kind enough to notify me that crowdfunding for a game they were working on was now up, and available.
Is it just me, or has this Kickstarter, Crowdfunding, GoFundMe, etc. thing just gone a little too far? I mean, I get it that someone has a great idea for an invention, but doesn't have the funds necessary to do it on their own, with their janitor's paycheck... but large multimillion dollar companies like SquareEnix doing it? It'd be like Ford coming out and saying, "hey, we have a great idea for the 2016 Mustang, but we're not sure if you'll like it, so here's our Kickstarter fund.... hope you'll support us!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 04:53:21
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Ensis Ferrae wrote:So, just popped onto my email, and saw a message from SquareEnix... Ya know, the guys behind Final Fantasy, and a bunch of other games. They were being kind enough to notify me that crowdfunding for a game they were working on was now up, and available.
Is it just me, or has this Kickstarter, Crowdfunding, GoFundMe, etc. thing just gone a little too far? I mean, I get it that someone has a great idea for an invention, but doesn't have the funds necessary to do it on their own, with their janitor's paycheck... but large multimillion dollar companies like SquareEnix doing it? It'd be like Ford coming out and saying, "hey, we have a great idea for the 2016 Mustang, but we're not sure if you'll like it, so here's our Kickstarter fund.... hope you'll support us!"
it's just getting started, what happens when it goes to far is scarey. It's really a 'hey buy this now, and hopefully we can get enough money to make it' scam. In your analogy if you donate 60k, they award you a 2016 mustang.
but in other cases, it's just good, clean fun:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/god-loves-gays-billboard-project
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 04:55:22
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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In short, yes. When a business is using its customers for a project it could fund on its own, eliminating risk, it has gone to far.
my local FLGS starting a KS so it can get an expansion. it would cost 100k and they got like 75K in loans. I think it is redicolous when the Architect, the building owner and the loaners say it is a bad idea, but you go to your customers for more money so you can continue this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 05:20:49
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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In a moral sense you are right. SquareEnix's shareholder's are supposed to fund their projects.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 05:20:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 07:38:09
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Dakka Veteran
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It's the easiest way to get project money, so companies would be stupid NOT to seek extra project cash outside their current revenues. The risk is minimal, too - you don't waste X amount of money on a project that might or might not sell enough to make it back.
KS is still quite new, and the funding seems to be easy to get, right now. Of course at some point the market becomes saturated, so companies will have to be able to sell the KS to the potential customers. This should weed out the worst project ideas.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 07:40:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:34:04
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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I'm not entirely sure it's any different from pre-ordering on a fundamental level.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 14:34:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:36:07
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
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They have no business doing that. Unless they intend to pay out dividends to the people who kick started it once they start selling it.
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1500 (10-3-0) (7thEd)
1850 (2-1-0) (7thEd)
2000 (1-0-0) (7thEd)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:44:14
Subject: Re:Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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I'd throw them loads of $$$ for them to remake FF7 on the PS4.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:48:15
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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LordofHats wrote:I'm not entirely sure it's any different from pre-ordering on a fundamental level. If you pre-order from a company you have a specific contract to be fulfilled. If the company doesn't provide the goods you can claim against them in court, you are automatically a creditor in case of their bankruptcy and should be able to get at least part of your money back. Assuming you actually paid up front because most often when ordering you would only need to pay a deposit if anything. Crowdfunding does not offer the same type of contractual relationship. If it all goes horribly wrong you probably won't be able to get any of your money back.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 14:50:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:48:41
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kilkrazy wrote:In a moral sense you are right. SquareEnix's shareholder's are supposed to fund their projects.
Well, big company management is notoriously conservative. Pump out sequels, stay safe, play to the LCD. Big game companies are places with a lot of top-tier talent, that probably generate a lot of great ideas that never see the light of day (if they even make it to the proposal stage), because the corporate management is unwilling to take the risk.
However you put the project up for crowdfunding, management can say "OK. Get X Dollars off this kickstarter and we'll take it as sufficient evidence this has enough of an audience to take a risk on. Put together what you need to make the pitch to the public.", it'll even offset the costs of the project a little.
I get the bad taste crowdfunding projects backed by big names leaves... but if it's going to wind up allowing interesting products that would otherwise be dismissed get worked by the talent at these companies, with the resources these companies have, I can stomach it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 14:51:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:49:37
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I agree. Anyone who has serious moral objections can avoid backing the project.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:51:25
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Kilkrazy wrote:If you pre-order from a company you have a specific contract to be fulfilled. If the company doesn't provide the goods you can claim against them in court, you are automatically a creditor in case of their bankruptcy and should be able to get at least part of your money back.
Crowdfunding does not offer the same type of contractual relationship. If it all goes horribly wrong you probably won't be able to get any of your money back.
So we're now afraid there will be an epidemic of major multi-million/billion dollar corporations asking for crowdfunding and then delivering nothing? I think CEO's are pretty big aholes a lot of the time and that they'd sell their own mother for the right price, but somehow this fear strikes me as being a little outlandish  These companies take gak for delivering a bad game. Delivering no game? No can't say I'm that worried.
Soliciting players for crowd funding stikes me as being the same thing as preordering for them, except they can trying and make the player feel more involved in the development process. It's actually kind of ingenious. I suspect it will backfire horribly, cause gamers are already entitled folks call them 'investors' and there will be hell to pay, but it's still a fancy idea XD
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 14:53:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 14:54:55
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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There are plenty of big game projects by big companies that have gone belly up and been cancelled internally after projets costs reached a high level. We are too early in the brave new era of Kickstarted big company to see if it will happen to someone like Square-Enix.
I was merely laying out the legal position for people's general information.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 15:00:52
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Kilkrazy wrote:There are plenty of big game projects by big companies that have gone belly up
Maybe a decade ago when there were tons of independent developers biting off more than they could chew, and today when some random guy decides "I'll make a game" then realizes its harder than it looks. These days every major developer is either loaded, or backed by someone who is. Which is good, because making (big) games has gotten really expensive and no one even starts the serious side of development unless the deal is more or less done.
Square Enix? They'd probably just bite the bullet to protect their reputation and never do it again. Worst case scenario, they do let the whole thing go belly up and no company ever tries it again following the insane backlash that inevitably follows.
If we're gonna cry over milk, lets find some milk that's actually spilled
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 15:02:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 15:12:23
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Publishers always made money on games they did NOT make. Now they want to make make money (5% of funds raised) on games they NEITHER make NOR fund. I guess maintaining the crowdfunding platform is value added in terms of marketing. The 5% allegedly allows Square to "cover the cost to keep the feedback stage free for everybody." What is the "feedback" stage? Does that mean crowdfunded games are guaranteed to get patches (unlike for example Fez)? Square Enix gets a further 10% of net revenue if they distribute a successfully funded game. My question is, will the Collective platform give backers anymore leverage than KS? For example, if the developer falls behind what happens? If the developer gives up entirely is Square Enix at all responsible or is it a KS-style "this is between ya'll" scenario? Kilkrazy wrote:Crowdfunding does not offer the same type of contractual relationship. If it all goes horribly wrong you probably won't be able to get any of your money back.
I am not sure that is correct, at least in the US.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 15:13:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 15:13:06
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Veteran ORC
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I think Square is one of the better companies to try to do it, though.
Not saying they are perfect in any sort of way, but at least this isn't EA trying it first.
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I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 15:18:10
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I think the key legal issue with crowdfunding, whether the everyday type we see on KS or the securities market type, is defining what "backer" means in terms of rights and obligations (compared to, for example, "investor"). A lot of crowdfunding marketing leans on the notion of investment but in practice (so far) backers only have control over a project to the extent volunteered by the project creator. Chongara wrote:if it's going to wind up allowing interesting products that would otherwise be dismissed get worked by the talent at these companies, with the resources these companies have, I can stomach it.
What do you mean by "these companies"? Looks like Square Enix will not be involved aside from hosting the crowdfunding project and covering nebulous "feedback stage" costs, allegedly out of its 5% cut. Moreover, I don't think crowdfunding hosted by established publishers is the solution (at least concerning video games) for stagnation in development. Square Enix's Collective already imposes a "middle man" obstacle between developers and backers with the community vote step. Cultivating a "community" is the publisher's attempt to reexert control over developers (by standing between them and consumers). This is exactly the kind of obstacle crowdfunding is supposed to cut out.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 15:24:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 15:35:11
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
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The only way I would donate money to them is if it ensured that Kingdom Hearts 3 came out faster. Anything going towards FF anything can suck it. I am so done with FF games after the last couple of turds they dropped.... how long did FF13 take to come out to suck that hard?
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1500 (10-3-0) (7thEd)
1850 (2-1-0) (7thEd)
2000 (1-0-0) (7thEd)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 15:48:36
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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This isn't for games developed by Square Enix.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 16:06:54
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Manchu wrote:What do you mean by "these companies"? Looks like Square Enix will not be involved aside from hosting the crowdfunding project and covering nebulous "feedback stage" costs, allegedly out of its 5% cut.
Well obviously the talent I was talking was with any established developer*. In terms of who is putting on the kick starter could be a developer, a publisher, a individual creator, some random 3rd party. It doesn't long as the proof viability is ultimately making it back to the publisher/purse-string holder.
Moreover, I don't think crowdfunding hosted by established publishers is the solution (at least concerning video games) for stagnation in development. Square Enix's Collective already imposes a "middle man" obstacle between developers and backers with the community vote step. Cultivating a "community" is the publisher's attempt to reexert control over developers (by standing between them and consumers). This is exactly the kind of obstacle crowdfunding is supposed to cut out.
What I'm saying is this.
Creator: I'd like to make [This]
Publisher: No. It isn't enough like Gunsplosion 14: Gunripper's Return. Zombies are really in right now, so just focus your energy on Gunsplosion 16: Bikini Zombie Meldown 5.
vs
Creator: I'd like to make [This]
Publisher: It's not Gunsplosion 46: Tittylaser Revolution, that's for sure. If we put what you've got on Kickstarter and it gets... at least $4.5m raised we'll give you [Budget] and take the kickstater money.
*even if it turns out that's not the actual case in this example. It could also apply to smaller developers that need a budget bigger than they could feasible raise on kickstater, but couldn't get without putting proof in front of the publisher first.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 16:09:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 16:10:32
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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hotsauceman1 wrote:In short, yes. When a business is using its customers for a project it could fund on its own, eliminating risk, it has gone to far.
my local FLGS starting a KS so it can get an expansion. it would cost 100k and they got like 75K in loans. I think it is redicolous when the Architect, the building owner and the loaners say it is a bad idea, but you go to your customers for more money so you can continue this.
I don't think you actually understand how risk works.
I'm fine with it.
I wish GW would use it for pet projects that aren't part of that mainstream lines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 16:16:21
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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A fool and his money are soon parted.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 16:46:53
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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If a publisher is not interested in making it AND it costs more than the substantial amounts developers have already proven capable of sucking out of consumers via KS ... honestly, I don't see a reason to make it. And even assuming such a game should be made, Square Enix's crowdfunding platform doesn't seem to have any additional capacity to that end compared to KS. Again - The problem with publishers managing crowdfunding platforms is that they are stepping BACK in between consumers and developers. This is EXACTLY what crowdfunding was supposed to eliminate in terms of video game development. cincydooley wrote:I wish GW would use it for pet projects that aren't part of that mainstream lines.
Me too ... except that GW is so bafflingly bad at interacting with consumers I cannot imagine it would go well.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 16:49:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 16:53:56
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Gargantuan Gargant
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prowla wrote:It's the easiest way to get project money, so companies would be stupid NOT to seek extra project cash outside their current revenues. The risk is minimal, too - you don't waste X amount of money on a project that might or might not sell enough to make it back.
I agree with everything you've said.
Honestly, as long as the backers get sweet extras for supporting it, I don't even are if it's a glorified pre-order system.
If GW wanted to fund a new xenos army for 40K, and threw in extras like CMON has with Zombicide, I would be all over it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 16:54:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 17:00:35
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Veteran ORC
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GW can't even support the armies it has, adding another would be the worst thing it could do.
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I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 17:27:01
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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LordofHats wrote:I'm not entirely sure it's any different from pre-ordering on a fundamental level.
I think on the most fundamental level, a preorder is generally done after the bulk of the work is done. Places like GameStop or Best Buy start doing pre-orders a few months from release (with exception of the REALLY big relases... sadly, like CoD and Madden, etc)
So the risk is still there for the company making the product, as they've not received any money off the project until most of the work is done. Whereas with Kickstarter they are basically asking you to "preorder" something that they probably haven't really even begun to work on, aside from an electrical connection in someone's brain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 17:30:16
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think crowd funding can either be good, or a total scam.
A lot of where an crowdfunded product line falls within that range is based up what the people developing/producing are giving for different breaks to "buy in".
Most of the time its a rip off.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 17:30:37
Subject: Re:Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Veteran ORC
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To be fair, it does allow said companies to put forth a slightly more silly project idea and see if it holds any water.
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I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 17:57:08
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Don't be so sure, when publishers are hosting the crowdfunding.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/28 18:44:50
Subject: Crowdfunding... Gone too far?
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Veteran ORC
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Manchu wrote:Don't be so sure, when publishers are hosting the crowdfunding.
Current publishers? Oh totally, bad thing.
Publishers down the line, when they realize they are being very, VERY stupid? This is going to be awesome.
I've always seen the Gaming Industry as a person, honestly;
We had the Cutesy baby years, when everything was bright and colorful, even the darker subjects.
Now we are in the Teenage years, where we are trying so hard to be cool and swear constantly, stay out past our bedtime, and don't listen to what anyone has to say.
Still need to mature a little bit, then it will be ok, in mein eyes.
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I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. |
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