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It's also a bummer from the eyes of 40k players who place more emphasis on the collecting part of the hobby. It's boring to buy box after box of Strike squad or Terminator squad. A lot of the flavor from the inquisition is lost and can now only be regained by allies

 Sir Arun wrote:
It's also a bummer from the eyes of 40k players who place more emphasis on the collecting part of the hobby. It's boring to buy box after box of Strike squad or Terminator squad. A lot of the flavor from the inquisition is lost and can now only be regained by allies

In my experience, to those who simply collect and consider playing a perk, this is a meaningless change since they'll still just build/collect whatever they want.

The only group that's wailing and moaning as if the sky is falling are the hardcore tourney circuit players, as they can no longer play their min/maxed lists of last edition.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
It's also a bummer from the eyes of 40k players who place more emphasis on the collecting part of the hobby. It's boring to buy box after box of Strike squad or Terminator squad. A lot of the flavor from the inquisition is lost and can now only be regained by allies

In my experience, to those who simply collect and consider playing a perk, this is a meaningless change since they'll still just build/collect whatever they want.

The only group that's wailing and moaning as if the sky is falling are the hardcore tourney circuit players, as they can no longer play their min/maxed lists of last edition.

I wouldn't say that's true at all. I've never been to a single tournament and I'm upset because the custom made henchmen and inquisitor models I made are now useless unless I buy a tablet so that I could then buy the digital codex. My response was to not even buy the GK codex.
I mean, to label every single person unhappy with losing a good chunk of the variety and flexibility of their army as "hardcore tourney" players, let alone as, "wailing and moaning" is more than a little insulting.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
It's also a bummer from the eyes of 40k players who place more emphasis on the collecting part of the hobby. It's boring to buy box after box of Strike squad or Terminator squad. A lot of the flavor from the inquisition is lost and can now only be regained by allies

In my experience, to those who simply collect and consider playing a perk, this is a meaningless change since they'll still just build/collect whatever they want.

The only group that's wailing and moaning as if the sky is falling are the hardcore tourney circuit players, as they can no longer play their min/maxed lists of last edition.

I wouldn't say that's true at all. I've never been to a single tournament and I'm upset because the custom made henchmen and inquisitor models I made are now useless unless I buy a tablet so that I could then buy the digital codex. My response was to not even buy the GK codex.
I mean, to label every single person unhappy with losing a good chunk of the variety and flexibility of their army as "hardcore tourney" players, let alone as, "wailing and moaning" is more than a little insulting.

If you're not playing any kind of organised tourney game, then any reasonable person would likely allow you to continue using the old book version + FAQ of the =I= stuff, especially if you don't have a tablet or techno device to even gain access to those rules.
It's what I ask my opponents if/when I want to use my old Culexus I'd converted some years ago, as I don't own any kind of digital device that can use those e-reader/tablet downloads.


Honestly, what's much more unreasonable and worth getting upset about is how Chaos players have lost all real semblance of proper Traitor Guard thanks to the 7th ed allies matrix, and we [I]still]/I] have no access to Radical Inquisitors!
Or how those poor Sisters players have almost no accessible model range any more unless you go shifting through e-bay and the likes.

Plenty of others at least equally as 'screwed over' by changes as the supposedly huge crapshoot that =I= being removed from a book it should never have been a part of, if not more so.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I remember playing a game against two friends in 5th and I took Draigo. Rest of the army got overwhelmed (was playing against Tyranids and Orks) but Draigo stood in the middle of the board and butchered squad after squad of gaunts, boyz, and even a few MC's that thought'd be cute to come and play.

I sold the army shortly afterwards.

eh dragio should be able to do that kinda stuff, other then the MCs he was basicly butchering canon fodder.

It was still obscene how many kills that guy got without suffering a wound, I mean, even at I1 when a Lashwhip/bonesword tyrant got into combat Draigo just laughed and activated his forceweapon.

It's kind of funny how people say GK were Broken OP, but yet they never topped the charts like Eldar/Tau/Daemons.

The only real issue I saw was purifers vs orks, which was a very hard counter, and warp quake spam (not competitive, but a real dick move towards chaos daemons)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's kind of funny how people say GK were Broken OP, but yet they never topped the charts like Eldar/Tau/Daemons.

The only real issue I saw was purifers vs orks, which was a very hard counter, and warp quake spam (not competitive, but a real dick move towards chaos daemons)

Just because GK were broken, does not mean that Eldar Tau, and Daemons aren't. Hopefully the next codices for those armies hit them hard with the nerfhammer. Heck, if GW issued errata that nerfed those armies, it would be even better.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's kind of funny how people say GK were Broken OP, but yet they never topped the charts like Eldar/Tau/Daemons.

The only real issue I saw was purifers vs orks, which was a very hard counter, and warp quake spam (not competitive, but a real dick move towards chaos daemons)

Just because GK were broken, does not mean that Eldar Tau, and Daemons aren't. Hopefully the next codices for those armies hit them hard with the nerfhammer. Heck, if GW issued errata that nerfed those armies, it would be even better.

Tau & Daemons have been clubbed pretty hard by 7th edition already... Eldar are the only massively disgusting Xenos army left, while the Imperium of Man, especially Codex Space Marines have gained significant buffs.

But let's just keep pretending that 7th is really just 6th in disguise and Riptides are 110% OP while DoC flying circuses reign supreme still.

Tau is still pretty freaking OP, just because it got objectively worse doesn't mean it was enough to change it's power level. It's not Eldar, but it's at least on par with SM if not higher.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Tau is still pretty freaking OP, just because it got objectively worse doesn't mean it was enough to change it's power level. It's not Eldar, but it's at least on par with SM if not higher.

That is the point I am making. The fact Eldar and Tau were hit with the nerfbat and are still excessively powerful is just a testament to the fact that they were even more OP in 6th. The nerfbat did hit the GKs hard, whether or not it was excessive seems to be up for debate (hence threads like this one...).

Uhh Eldar were pretty undeniably buffed and I haven't heard a single competitive Eldar player say otherwise, their best unit just got better.

That being said, I was agreeing with you, and responding to the poster after you, who described Tau as being clubbed pretty hard by 7th and no longer on an OP level, which is pretty far from the truth. They are still only just behind Eldar, who are at #1. The power of the Tau codex makes dexes like Nids, CSM, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Orks, even AM, look to be lacking. And that's just the 6-7th ed dexes, it's pointless even comparing them to Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters, etc. The only thing really on their level now is SM & Eldar. If your army is significantly stronger than all but 2 other dexes, it falls in the overpowered catergory, indirect 7th ed nerfs or not.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Uhh Eldar were pretty undeniably buffed and I haven't heard a single competitive Eldar player say otherwise, their best unit just got better.

That being said, I was agreeing with you, and responding to the poster after you, who described Tau as being clubbed pretty hard by 7th and no longer on an OP level, which is pretty far from the truth. They are still only just behind Eldar, who are at #1. The power of the Tau codex makes dexes like Nids, CSM, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Orks, even AM, look to be lacking. And that's just the 6-7th ed dexes, it's pointless even comparing them to Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters, etc. The only thing really on their level now is SM & Eldar. If your army is significantly stronger than all but 2 other dexes, it falls in the overpowered catergory, indirect 7th ed nerfs or not.

I think we are on the same page. Though this is the first time I had read that C:SM is OP. Most everything I have read is that it is fairly middle of the road with a few exploitable things. GKs may or may not have needed the nerf bat, but the friggin' Eldar needed a Nerf Tactical Nuke.

Alright guys, since multiple people are talking about nerfing Eldar, what exactly do you have in mind? I think apart from removing laserlock on Scatterlasers, the Serpent Shield nobody had asked for prior to 2013 and possibly make bladestorm an exarch power unique to Dire Avengers instead of armywide, I cannot think of any other things Eldar deserve to get nerfed with.

 Dezstiny wrote:

If you bought codex grey knights to play Grey Knights, losing the inqusition isn't going to be something you terriably care about.

If you played the game competitively... Yea that hurt alot. Before you find cheap GEQ units to hold objective units, as opposed to buying even more redundant strike or terminator models for the job. At least this way could keep them in a rhino and just roll them onto an objective and capture it. if they died alongside the squad inside all your expression was "At least it wasnt a strike squad or terminator squad... that wouldv'e cost me another 75-125pts."

However you are correct if you played the game casually then there indeed is no set-back.

Correct me if im wrong but cant you still play the exact same list but with Inq allies/ second CAD? Everyone took coteaz anyway.

Ok so then you are losing the option of allies... It's just in no way something to be cheering about.


@casval I think SM are very strong maybe not OP but just below Tau and above almost everything else bar Eldar. Significantly OP maybe not but still better than other options and that's before you factor in their versatile allies matrix

 SHUPPET wrote:
Uhh Eldar were pretty undeniably buffed and I haven't heard a single competitive Eldar player say otherwise, their best unit just got better.

That being said, I was agreeing with you, and responding to the poster after you, who described Tau as being clubbed pretty hard by 7th and no longer on an OP level, which is pretty far from the truth. They are still only just behind Eldar, who are at #1. The power of the Tau codex makes dexes like Nids, CSM, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Orks, even AM, look to be lacking. And that's just the 6-7th ed dexes, it's pointless even comparing them to Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters, etc. The only thing really on their level now is SM & Eldar. If your army is significantly stronger than all but 2 other dexes, it falls in the overpowered catergory, indirect 7th ed nerfs or not.

Tau have lost their two most abusive gimmicks, namely Buffmanders making Ridptides OP and Eldar allies giving out Divination like candy.
The only really obnoxious things that remain are Markerlights needing only 2 counters to strip cover completely, and the Riptide's Ion Accelerator being undercosted.

Overall Tau are now on the same level as Codex Marines & Daemons.
Grey Knights have a brutal alpha strike potential against them now with all that shunting goodness. AM/IG can compete readily in the shooting department as Medusas are just plain rude and blob squads take a fair amount of effort to remove.
Any army with Psychic potential is a nightmare for Tau, especially if you have access to Telepathy. (Psy Scream is an instant killer) Any Imperial army taking advantage of Santic shenanigans will also be highly painful for Tau to counter... (enjoy your re-rollable 2++ in combat IoM)

The main problem with Tau is that the army itself is such a boring concept because it competes in only half the game's phases - Movement & especially Shooting. Playing with enough LoS blockers & other terrain works wonders as it stretches their markerlights too thin.

Lol Riptides are by far and large OP with or without Buffmanders. The Ion Cannon is ridiculously underpriced, but even without it it is still an OP model. The Ion Acceleration just pushes it into insanely OP territory, and the Buffmanders made it by and large the best unit in the game for its price.

Boring concept or not, while Riptide stands in that book, it's OP as hell. I own 4000 pts of Tau. I'm not going to pretend as though the nerf given to Tau through the MC changes is even close to relevant enough to even out the power balance.

PsyScream will always be cost effective vs us, but that's like saying DE is a better codex than Tyranids because of poison. It's not relevant enough, as it stands Marines are a great des, and while they can get wins vs Tau it generally happens because the play style of the Marine build counters Taus natural strengths and plays to its weaknesses. It's far from guaranteed, and it's against every other match up where it becomes clear that Tau is the stronger army, even if they are more evenly balanced in the match up against each other.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Lol Riptides are by far and large OP with or without Buffmanders. The Ion Cannon is ridiculously underpriced, but even without it it is still an OP model. The Ion Acceleration just pushes it into insanely OP territory, and the Buffmanders made it by and large the best unit in the game for its price.

Boring concept or not, while Riptide stands in that book, it's OP as hell. I own 4000 pts of Tau. I'm not going to pretend as though the nerf given to Tau through the MC changes is even close to relevant enough to even out the power balance.

PsyScream will always be cost effective vs us, but that's like saying DE is a better codex than Tyranids because of poison. It's not relevant enough, as it stands Marines are a great des, and while they can get wins vs Tau it generally happens because the play style of the Marine build counters Taus natural strengths and plays to its weaknesses. It's far from guaranteed, and it's against every other match up where it becomes clear that Tau is the stronger army, even if they are more evenly balanced in the match up against each other.

The Ion Accelerator is the only major blight on the Riptide now. No Buffmander is a huge loss, and no more Divination means it requires Markerlights to really make high save units worry. The IA makes it about equivalent to the newly re-costed PT Dreadknight. It's a pain to deal with and undercosted, but not outright broken. 1 is troublesome but not obnoxious, 2 is creeping into obnoxious territory, 3 is plain rude.

As a Daemon player, (and Tzeentch at that, which took a major nerf from 7th), I still routinely thrash the now Eldar-less/no more 'go-go-gadget-mander+riptide' Tau.
The biggest loss for the Riptide is losing out on the added USR's + the ablative wounds provided by the Buffmander AND that it's now eating into the Markerlight pool in order to get back to its "point at unit and it dies" abilities.

The balance in 40k now in 7th seems more along the lines of:
1. Eldar still god-level.
2. Codex Marines, IG/AM, Tau, Daemons. (and I wouldn't be surprised to see GK's slot in here as well as shunt lists are utterly brutal)
3. DA's, SW's, CSM's, Tyranids, Orks.

With the overall the balance between 2 & 3 being pretty small. It's really only Eldar sticking out like a massively sore thumb, and then, it's only certain lists such as min/maxed Serpent spam + Wraithknight(s).

The rest of the books such as BA's, DE, 'Crons, etc... are more or less wildcards since they're simply waiting for their updates to 7th edition standards. Overall the balance in 7th is better than it's been in 5th & 6th where you could almost predict the game's outcome just from the army lists.
5th was boring as feth due to transporthammer & only the Imperial armies getting any love, while 6th devolved into unstoppable Blessing shenanigans, allies abuses and unkillable Deathstars.

 Homeskillet wrote:

NDK- was not overpowered during 6th at all, he was crazy expensive in an already expensive army. At only 4 wounds, when compared to Riptides (who can get 3++ and FNP, have 5 wounds), and Wraithknights (T8, 6 wounds!!), he is fairly priced.

Yes, because Riptides and Wraithknights are well-balanced...

 vipoid wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

NDK- was not overpowered during 6th at all, he was crazy expensive in an already expensive army. At only 4 wounds, when compared to Riptides (who can get 3++ and FNP, have 5 wounds), and Wraithknights (T8, 6 wounds!!), he is fairly priced.

Yes, because Riptides and Wraithknights are well-balanced...

I"d actually argue that Wraithknights are pretty close to balanced for their points cost. Riptides are still, in mine and many others' eyes, very undercosted. My comparison was just to the other MC beat sticks out there.

Experiment 626 wrote:


The Ion Accelerator is the only major blight on the Riptide now. No Buffmander is a huge loss, and no more Divination means it requires Markerlights to really make high save units worry. The IA makes it about equivalent to the newly re-costed PT Dreadknight. It's a pain to deal with and undercosted, but not outright broken. 1 is troublesome but not obnoxious, 2 is creeping into obnoxious territory, 3 is plain rude.

Saying this, does not make it so. The loss of Buffmander, no matter how relevant, still takes it only from "best model in the game" down notch just to "insanely overpowered". Without buffmander and Ion Accel, HBC Riptide is still the most tankiest, fastest, most shooty MC in the game for <200 pts. And it's significantly cheaper than 200 points, with a bunch of very useful upgrade options. The fact that this load-out is still significantly OP in comparison to other models of it's type, should give you an idea how silly Riptide is with Ion Accel & Buffmander. Eldar allies too, although these are not relevant to this discussion as that army comp was no longer Tau, it's TauDar. I'm comparing each individual book with each other not a mish mash of both compared to a mish mash of another two as that's a very silly way to gauge the power level of individual codexes.