Switch Theme:

Incinerators vs open topped vehicles.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Hey folks.

With the 7th changes of templates also hitting the passengers in open topped vehicles, would you say it's possible to make units inside a transport suffer from soulblaze while they are still on board? I had a friend say no because you hit the vehicle, but the new rules state that the unit inside is also hit with D6 hits... so my reasoning would be that they suffer soulblaze too...

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Wounds caused by weapons with soulblaze inflict the status.

Therefore, wounds caused from the D6 hits of an incinerator must in fact cause soulblaze.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Difficult.

Soulblaze requires you put a counter next to the unit, the unit is not on the table to put the counter by. I do not think there is a requirement to put the models together in a unit somewhere so they can be affected by things, but obviously you can affect them and cause potential casualties.

If a unit had a soul blaze token, and embarked in a vehicle the token would not disappear as far as the RAW goes.

So yes, I believe you would put a soulblaze token on the unit. Not sure where you would physically put the actual token tho
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

What prevents putting a Counter next to a Unit which is not on the table?

I will need to review the situation as I am not 100% sure of the Rule interactions, however is it not required that a Special Rule generating Hits needs specific instruction if they are to use Special Rules found on other Hits?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 20:06:43


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






No escape rule for template weapons:

If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

Soulburn rules:

If a unit suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from an attack with this special rule, it is set ablaze and continues to burn – mark it with a coin or counter as a reminder.

So would my reasoning be correct if I state to him that the unit not being the original target or them being inside a vehicle makes no difference?

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The embarked unit does not suffer from soul blaze or concussive or any other weapon special rule.

This is because the No Escape rule specifies what happens to the unit inside, and the unit inside has not been targeted by the unit and is not hit by the weapon, it just suffers "D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon" that targeted the vehicle.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Yeah, but soulblaze is triggered from suffering an unsaved wound caused by the weapon with the rule... There's no denying those wounds are caused by the incinerator, and not by some other source, right?

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Elmir wrote:
Yeah, but soulblaze is triggered from suffering an unsaved wound caused by the weapon with the rule... There's no denying those wounds are caused by the incinerator, and not by some other source, right?

They are not cause by the incinerator, as the incinerator has not targeted the squad in the transport. The wounds come from the No Escape rule.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






So you are saying the vehicle does spontaneous combustion on the inside once you apply fire to the outside? Seems legit...

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Elmir wrote:
So you are saying the vehicle does spontaneous combustion on the inside once you apply fire to the outside? Seems legit...


No, I never said that.

The No Escape rule tells us to roll a D6 hits on an embarked unit when heir transport is hit with a template attack.

Normally you do not hit or wound embarked units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 21:38:51


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






Yeah I know, this is new to this edition with the updated book. One would assume that the D6 hits originate from the weapon though, not the vehicle...

As the "No escape" rule is a rule that belongs to any flamer type weapon.... not to the vehicle being open topped. It's listed under template weapons as well.

So yeah, the hits come from the no escape rule, but the no escape rule belongs to a weapon (along with soulblaze in the case of an incinerator). So it' still safe to say that the weapon caused the hits, right?

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Elmir wrote:
Yeah I know, this is new to this edition with the updated book. One would assume that the D6 hits originate from the weapon though, not the vehicle...

As the "No escape" rule is a rule that belongs to any flamer type weapon.... not to the vehicle being open topped. It's listed under template weapons as well.

So yeah, the hits come from the no escape rule, but the no escape rule belongs to a weapon (along with soulblaze in the case of an incinerator). So it' still safe to say that the weapon caused the hits, right?


No, the No Escape rule allows you to hit an embarked unit, as weapons can not target units that are embarked.

Since No Escape is the more specific rule, and does not say that you use all of the special rules of the template weapon, then you do not use the special rules of the weapon.

You resolve the hits from No Escape at the Str and AP of the weapon.

It does not mention that you can apply the special rules of the weapon, like soulblaze, concussive etc..., so you can not apply soulblaze, concussive etc...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

If a Template weapon hits a building’s Fire Point or an Open-topped vehicle and there is a unit embarked inside that building or vehicle, then in addition to any other effects that unit suffers D6 hits, resolved at the Strength and AP of the weapon. These hits are Randomly Allocated.

I think it's that section that's causing the problem, as it could be implied as the unit would be affected by special rules of the weapon and not just from results of the Vehicle Damage table.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in ca
Irked Necron Immortal





Edmonton Ab

Agreeing with DR on this one. We have a precedent in the necron codex, MSS, which shows a specific rule permitting the use of special rules on a weapon.

Unkown/1500
My Necron Blog
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Think of it this way:
The Hits are not being generated by the Weapon, they come from the Special Rule itself. There are Special Rules that can trigger off similar events that require a successful Hit and they do not even get a clause stating that they get to use the Armor Piercing rate of the Weapon or even the Strength. These ones, though often they are more often found linked to Wounds directly and not Hit's, have always been ruled in the past to have no access to details from the Shots that triggered the Special Rule without specific mention.

I still haven't checked to see if anything in the basic Rules have changed that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 23:06:45


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

JinxDragon wrote:
Think of it this way:
The Hits are not being generated by the Weapon, they come from the Special Rule itself. There are Special Rules that can trigger off similar events that require a successful Hit and they do not even get a clause stating that they get to use the Armor Piercing rate of the Weapon or even the Strength. These ones, though often they are more often found linked to Wounds directly and not Hit's, have always been ruled in the past to have no access to details from the Shots that triggered the Special Rule without specific mention. .

This.

It's ultimately no different to models taking wounds from Gets Hot! when their plasma gun overheats... The wound comes from the Gets Hot! rule, not from the plasma gun.

This is the same situation. The wounds suffered by the embarked unit are caused by the No Escape rule, and resolved at the S and AP of the weapon that shot the vehicle, not by the weapon itself. Any other effect from the weapon could only be applied to the passengers if the weapon's own rules specifically stated that it affected embarked passengers.

 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






yeah ok, because of the wording on No Escape im in agreement. No soulblaze.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

By this interpretation we would get the 'Crons Abyssal Staff to wound against toughness of the unit instead of the leadership. Sound right?

ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Gravmyr wrote:
By this interpretation we would get the 'Crons Abyssal Staff to wound against toughness of the unit instead of the leadership. Sound right?

Is that the Str and AP of the weapon? if not then no.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

The Abyssal Staff compares it's Strength against the target's Leadership instead of it's Toughness to determine if it wounds or not.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Yeah but the staff isnt inflicting the hits. The "no escape" rule is.

So technically, you use its strength of 8 and ap of 2 with the D6 hits and would resolve it againgst toughness.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

Eihnlazer wrote:
Yeah but the staff isnt inflicting the hits. The "no escape" rule is.

So technically, you use its strength of 8 and ap of 2 with the D6 hits and would resolve it againgst toughness.


If we're all agreed that it's "No Escape" performing the hits, and not the weapon (with it's rules), then indeed the above applies too...

DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in be
Monstrous Master Moulder






I'm sorry, how can you say that the weapon isn't causing it if the "no escape" rule is a rule associated with the weapon?


So I shoot an incinerator. Due to it being a template weapon, it has the following rules:

- Ignore cover
- Wall of death
- No Escape
- Soulblaze

So saying that those hits originate from the "no escape rule" cannot be said in a vacuum... The rule is there only because of the weapon. A weapon with a rule that any wounds caused would cause soulblaze hits later on (possibly).

Here's another question: would you argue that a unit suffering hits when charging (due to wall off death) wouldn't get soulblaze... It would be even crazier if your reasoning would be that it's not the incinerator causing the hits and wounds.

In both cases there's a "middle step" of either "wall of death" or "no escape". But that middle step is only there because of the wepaon, which is still the SOURCE of those hits. And that source causes soulblaze.

This is the same situation. The wounds suffered by the embarked unit are caused by the No Escape rule, and resolved at the S and AP of the weapon that shot the vehicle, not by the weapon itself. Any other effect from the weapon could only be applied to the passengers if the weapon's own rules specifically stated that it affected embarked passengers.


Like I previously said, the "no escape rule" is a rule associated with the weapon. It's a "middle step", not the cause. If you trace back the reason for the hits, it IS the incinerator. If a unit suffers a wound due to no escape, they would also, by definition, have suffered a hit caused by the weapon.




If I were to push a man against a wall who then had a bookshelf fall on his head that killed him, I would still be the cause of his demise. Without my action, he would have never been killed. My action caused that bookshelf to fall on his head. No lawyer would ever get away with stating "oh no, the bookshelf is to blame, not my client... Same deal here, without that incinerator, he would have never suffered the wounds. The incinerator is the cause of the wound suffered.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 11:12:45


The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in nl
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





The Netherlands

And if a weapon has both Soul Blaze and Get's Hot, would you apply the Soulblaze rule to any wounds that are caused by the Get's Got rule when firing such a weapon?

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 Redemption wrote:
And if a weapon has both Soul Blaze and Get's Hot, would you apply the Soulblaze rule to any wounds that are caused by the Get's Got rule when firing such a weapon?

Find a weapon with both Soulblaze and Gets Hot, and we'll discuss that weapon. As Incinerators do not have Gets Hot, the above question is moot.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in nl
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





The Netherlands

Sure: any weapon with Soul Blaze on a model affected by Objuration Mechanicum.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




CT, USA

If I'm FORGING THE NARRATIVE, then some dudes who get wrecked by an incinerator because they're trapped in a vehicle will certainly suffer from Soulblaze. I think that's how it's intended, without getting stuffy about the legalese of the situation.
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 Redemption wrote:
Sure: any weapon with Soul Blaze on a model affected by Objuration Mechanicum.

And I'd say yes. The Objuration Mech caused the incinerator to misfire bathing the firing and his squad in psychically charged fuel. I don't see why that wouldn't trigger the soul blaze on the firing unit.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
 Redemption wrote:
Sure: any weapon with Soul Blaze on a model affected by Objuration Mechanicum.

And I'd say yes. The Objuration Mech caused the incinerator to misfire bathing the firing and his squad in psychically charged fuel. I don't see why that wouldn't trigger the soul blaze on the firing unit.

-Matt


Because the incinerator did not wound the squad, the gets hot rule did.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




South Chicago burbs

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 Redemption wrote:
And if a weapon has both Soul Blaze and Get's Hot, would you apply the Soulblaze rule to any wounds that are caused by the Get's Got rule when firing such a weapon?

Find a weapon with both Soulblaze and Gets Hot, and we'll discuss that weapon. As Incinerators do not have Gets Hot, the above question is moot.

SJ


Ok, CSM has a psychic power that gives all the ranged weapons in a unit the "gets hot" special rule.

Ready to answer the question yet?

insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

11k
4K
4k
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: