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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 01:05:15
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Dakka Veteran
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What the title says, really, but is always defecting to shooting better in its own right, or has assault been nerfed to the point where shooting got better by default in recent memory? (I started on the tail end of 6th).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 01:06:00
I went to Hershey Park in central PA this year, and I have to say I was more than a little disappointed. I fully expected the entire theme park to be make entirely of chocolate, but no. Here in America, we have "building codes," and some other nonsense about chocolate melting if don't store it someplace kept below room temperature. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 01:15:32
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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Your text is kind of vague, but essentially the game is shooty because with models being removed from the front, you can often nullify several inches of movement, and large amounts of firepower vaporize any attempt to footslog an army without its own firepower.
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For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 01:44:28
Subject: Re:What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Also overwatch specifically was a rather large advantage given to 'shooty' units, whereas assault units did not receive a similarly potent upgrade.
So it's hard(er) to assault enemy units effectively than it used to be, and it's easier to shoot more than it once was. Hence a 'shooty' game as it currently stands.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 03:28:21
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Overwatch
Surplus of high strength low ap guns compared to melee (should really be the other way around without paying an arm and a leg to get it)
Denial of charging from non-assault vehicles, outflank, infiltrate, scout, or reserves in general. Deepstrike was always denied a charge the turn they arrive, and that one makes sense.
Most melee orientated units are not tanky enough to deal with the surplus of high strength guns. The few that are able to deal with it are either rule-loopholes for super strength cheese, or wicked fast to get to the target before they even get shot anyway (which is few and far between)
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 04:05:29
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Dakka Veteran
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Random charge range.
Nothing like arming a squad for CC and they decide to charge 2 inches!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 04:07:59
Subject: Re:What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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See codex Tau and Eldar.
Having said that, I still maintain that it's important to shoehorn some sort of assault threat into one's army. At least, it's important for ME to do so, as it's my preferred play style. Assault is still extremely powerful...you just gotta get there.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 04:09:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 04:17:44
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
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Overwatch to hit guys as they charge you.
Random charge range, so you night fail and still eat overwatch anyway.
Effective charge range reduced when overwatch causes casualties.
No assaulting the turn you arrive from Reserve!!!
No assaulting from Deep Strike (units that used't'could can't do so anymore).
Even after all that, units that are good in Melee run the risk of overkill and getting shot to hell the following turn.
All that and, probably a few things I forgot, add up to a game highly in favor of shooting.
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Eldar (Craftworld Sahal-Deran) 2500pts. 2000pts Fully Painted.
Dark Eldar (Kabal of the Slashed Eye) 2000pts. 1250pts Fully Painted. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 04:25:20
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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kinda wish the charge range was 6+D6, so its got the "longer charge" that the whole 2D6 was suppose to give us but prevent the bullcrap of failing a 3" charge.
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 05:41:32
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Assault isn't bad. A lot of people are just belly aching over nerfs that frankly aren't an actual problem (overwatch and 2d6' charges) or were needed (charging out of reserves or deep strike is broken and not good for the game).
They neglect to tell you how powerful a successful assault really is as it:
- Locks down the enemy unit and prevents them from moving or shooting
- Prevents your unit from getting shot at
- Deals damage during both player turns
- Can potentially wipe out entire units with very little damage with a Sweeping Advance
- And can do all of this to multiple units at a time with a multi-charge
The reason why 40k is a shooty game instead is because its so reliable. It's consistent damage every turn and its fairly safe. Assault is all-or-nothing because until you actual get into combat its doing nothing.
The real issue with assault in 7th edition is a lack of viable delivery systems because they removed the ability to assault out of not-assault vehicles. This basically did in any infantry speed assault unit because no matter what they have to spend at least one turn standing prone in front of the enemy and will promptly die because of it. You basically have to be using units that are both durable and fast enough to reach the enemy by turn 2 to do well with assault. And those units exist (look at Daemons and especially Flesh Hounds).
But a lot of units don't fit that prevue being either too slow, to fragile, or just get to costly to be considered effective. The Land Raider is a good example of this because it does get units to combat reliable because its very durable and quick but adds 250pts to the cost of w/e unit you put in it (and doesn't do much on its own) so often makes the investment too steep to be an effective alternative to more reliable shooty options.
In the end its just a lot of work that only few units can adequately do when most shooting units get the job done more often and with ease. But when you do combat right it is crazy good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 06:31:56
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
Little Rock, Arkansas
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There's also the cost issue. Assault units tend to be overpriced while simultaneously not accomplishing anything on the board until halfway through the game. A shooting unit, on turn 1, might remove an enemy shooting unit that was going to give you major headaches all game, before it fires a single shot. An assault unit will always be considerate and give your opponent at least a round to unload one clip.
Assault, the gentlemen's attack strategy!
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20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 07:32:03
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
Maine
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Pretty much what everyone above has stated. Though I have to say it does bug me that people consider assault out of Deep Strike/Reserves to be 'broken'. While certain armies can abuse it more than others, that's the point. Some armies shoot better, others assault better. I don't see how it's fine for a unit to Deep Strike in and be allowed to shoot the gak out of me, but I can't Deep Strike and chop the crap out of you.
And one could argue "Well...you can DS and shoot too! So stop complaining!"
But that is a poor argument. Don't gimp one style of play. THAT'S unhealthy for the game. Don't punish Orks and Tyranids for being CC focused. While Orks have gotten more shooty, they still are more reliable at hacking the crap out of everything they can get their green mitts on.
With what little Deep Strike Orks have, we could really make use of assaulting out of it. Not to mention we have the downside of having to DS large blobs. We don't have DS vehicles like Pods to give us pinpoint landing, as well as ANOTHER thing to shoot with after the fact. They took away Zagstruk's ability to do this, which was utterly pointless. One unit out of the entire book could do this, and now we will sit there like idiots and be shot with a unit that is as durable to shooting as wet tissue paper.
It's pointless.
On the topic of random charges, that too is another thing that hurts assaulty armies. There shouldn't be a random charge. Whoever thought that was a cool or cinematic idea is an asshat. I wouldn't be so upset by it if we actually got to MOVE that distance, even if we failed to reach the enemy. If I roll 8 inches...why am I not moving those 8 inches? WHY AM I STANDING STILL? I had to suffer overwatch casualties...but why do I get further punished by sitting here like a tool?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 07:38:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 08:00:27
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Its stupid to compare shooting out of deep strike to assaulting out of reserves because assault is way more powerful. Shooting is only at best "I deal X damage to 1 unit" and you can do that with any unit's shooting regardless of how they deployed. You don't get to respond to any units shooting so it doesn't matter if they arrived from deep strike. With an assault it entails all the benefits I listed earlier (which is way way more the shooting normally gets) but regularly you always have to take at least two turns to reach combat so your opponent always gets at least one turn to deal with it. If you assault out of reserves that is completely gone which is not fair for a mechanic that is intrinsically more powerful then shooting.
As for random charging that's existed in the game way before 6ed. Its called charging through terrain. And frankly any decent player had there units in terrain anyway so you pretty much never got to make a normal 6" charge anyway. As far as I'm considered the ability to charge farther then 6" is a huge buff and the probability of rolling at least 6"+ is 72% which is good odds so most of the time you should be charging as good if not better then before. If you are afraid of rolling low then get closer and make odds even better. If you do roll low and fail a charge then so what you're placing a dice game bad luck happens. Besides its awesome to get luck and make a critical 10" charge that wins you game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 08:31:18
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Well, the 3rd ed has been an assaulty edtion.
A unit in a Rhino has been able to charge out of the Rhino even when the Rhino has moved.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 09:31:11
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
Maine
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wuestenfux wrote:Well, the 3rd ed has been an assaulty edtion.
A unit in a Rhino has been able to charge out of the Rhino even when the Rhino has moved.
I dunno why there has to be a 'this or that' edition, why not a balanced edition? Oh... GW... :(
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 10:30:01
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Andy Hoare
Turku, Finland
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A thing with objectives especially in maelstrom missions is also that a mobile assault unit does nothing if it goes just to take an objective while a mobile shooting unit can kill something and take the objective.
Also many assault units are ridiculously overcosted. Well, many units in general are, but things like normal close combat walkers are simply not going to do anything for their significant points cost whereas an overpriced shooting unit might still accomplish something.
One last thing, with a close combat army you risk running into another close combat army that might horribly counter you because you don't get to strike them at all. When you're shooting that usually can't happen.
My experiences of playing assault is that you all in them turn 2 and then one of you loses the game, no reason to even play turn 3. You can't just hold back and get shot at while you do nothing.
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"Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." - Lord Borak
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 11:06:12
Subject: Re:What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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It's a combination of factors:
- Shooting is sequential, assaults are simultaneous. With good positioning, I can usually get several potential targets for a lot of my shooting units. So, I can start firing on priority targets, and see if the initial shots kill them. If so, great, if not I can choose to dedicate more firepower towards them or to other units instead.
With assault, the most I can know is whether a given assault unit has reached combat - I have to commit all my assault units before knowing the results of each assault. It would be like if I had to shoot all my guns, but only got to see their to-hit rolls, and then could only roll to-wound (or armour penetration) after everything had fired.
This is especially important for transports. If I take down a transport via shooting, I can then proceed to shoot the occupants with anything that can see them. However, if I take down a transport in assault, everything else will have already charged - so I can do nothing to them and they can shoot me in their turn.
- Pre-measuring helps shooting, but does little for assault. With pre-measuring, I can make sure that my guns are all in range - possibly of multiple targets (as above). With assaults, the most I can do is know the odds of a charge succeeding.
- Assaults tend to be much more easily influenced by your opponent's positioning. With shooting, you only need to see the model you wish to shoot. It might get a cover save, but you can at least shoot it. With assault, their needs to be a physical path for your models to reach the enemy - meaning it's a lot easier for terrain and/or enemy models to block off access to the squad you wish to charge.
- Shooting is active before assault. Arguably a more minor (and rather obvious) point, but still worth mentioning. Sometimes the opponent has a unit that you need dead ASAP - and assault units just can't get to it fast enough.
- Casualties are removed from the front - so every casualty an assault unit takes pushes it back and increases the chance of it failing its assault.
- Overwatch - varies a lot in its impact, but it simply a free bonus to shooting units and, with casualties being removed from the front, a lost model or two can still push a unit out of range.
- Closed-top transports favour shooting. Even if they don't have fire points, you can still disembark and fire normally. But, even if the transport was stationary, you still can't assault after disembarking from one.
- Reserves favour shooting. When you come in from reserves, shooting units can fire all their weapons to full effect; whilst assault units can do nothing but wander around and try to look innocuous.
- Perhaps a more minor point, but there's a pretty big discrepancy in the cost of melee weapons, compared to ranged weapons. With my IG, a plasmagun costs the same as 3 guardsmen, whilst a power fist costs as much as 5 guardsmen. Of the two, which do you think will be the most useful?
Similarly, if I'm looking to spend just a few extra points, I can take a flamer or grenade launcher for the cost of 1 guardsman - yet even the cheapest melee weapon costs 3 guardsmen. Even with their Relics, the crappy sword literally costs 5 times as much as the pistol.
I know some armies might have cheaper options for melee weapons (e.g. the Venom Blade for DE), but that doesn't make the prices of other melee weapons any less silly - nor is it any consolation for races stuck with only expensive items to choose from.
But, as I said, this last one is a more minor point.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 17:04:54
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Another thing to consider is how few good assault units there are compared to good ranged units. And while taking a Falcon over a waveserpent or a Vyper over a War Walker is usually suboptimal, they will definetly still do something for you in the game.
Howling banshees and storm guardians though....
Even looking at an assault focused codex the power level difference is crazy. It's like GW just don't understand how to balance their game:
CSM units that are good at assaulting:
Chaos Spawn (good)
Chaos Lords (good)
Bikers (average)
Raptors (average)
CSM that are terrible at assaulting (despite being an assault unit):
Mutilators,
Khorne Berserkers,
Possessed,
Chosen,
Warp Talons
If you pick a suboptimal melee unit they will just die before they can achieve anything, game after game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 21:44:35
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Dakka Veteran
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I think 6+d6 would be great.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 21:45:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 22:14:38
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Brigadier General
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Powerfisting wrote:What the title says, really, but is always defecting to shooting better in its own right, or has assault been nerfed to the point where shooting got better by default in recent memory? (I started on the tail end of 6th).
Just to clarify, 40k is not a "shooty" game in the wider scheme of sci-fi games. Compared to most other sci-fi games, it's got a HUGE amount of Melee.
However it is true that the 2 most recent versions of 40k have been notably more "shooty" than the 3 that proceeded them. The reasons for that have been well explained above far better than I could have done.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/31 22:37:53
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant
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Random Charge Distances is GWs way of saying you're not playing Tau or Eldar.
And the entire reason for it was to sell the armies that NO ONE played. Barely anyone played Tau, same with Eldar. Now they're just dominating. They simply exceed at everything with all their units and have almost no down side. They removed "Assault from Reserves" units and models because these specific shooti armies thought it was too "OP" and unfair that these said models and units could bypass having to traverse the table and taking 80% of their models in casualties. Oddly enough There was NO 7th edition backlash when it was informed that Overwatch rumors of not being able to fire at full BS the next turn were not present in the 7th Edition.
I hate my Tau and feel like I wasted time in collecting them. Having played them for so long now, and having invested in the new models, I simply cannot look at them like a tactically challenging army to play. You just sit there, you sit there and you count how many turns it takes for you to remove your opponent from the board. Eldar from my experience are similar. You simply sit there and jump around, ignoring entire sections of the rulebook (CC for instance) and just move, shoot, move some more and shoot again, it's boring.
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Life: An incomprehensible, endless circle of involuntary self-destruction.
12,000
14,000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/01 00:04:36
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Indiana
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I like running assault units as deterrents as well as for board control.
With this edition being a "shooty edition" while also requiring mobility, people are not investing in assault units.
That means that it doesnt take much to beat most units in assault.
So with an assault unit you can limit the areas they can enter, especially if there is good terrain on the table. I regularly box people into 1 table quarter and instead of assaulting just sit back until they move close enough. With progressive objectives that usually puts them behind.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/01 01:19:57
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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Because the imperial flash lights go pew pew!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/01 02:41:01
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Design, or incompetence? There's a saying, Hanlon's Razor, that goes; "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I mean, it's possible that GW is some manner of evil master mind that is tweaking the rules in really subtle and extremely devious ways that allow them to control sales made by hard core WAAC gamers.....but they've shown time and again that they don't CARE about the people "chasing the dragon" of competitive lists, or hard core players AT ALL. Their rule set is a shambles, they've systematically shut down and removed everything competitive about the game in the last 3 years and I'm prone to believe that army balance is almost entirely random and not by their design.
They simply play test at a "casual gamer" level. No one is testing 3 riptide lists, or 6+ Serpent lists, or unbound lists with 15 annihilation barges, or 2 Transcendent Ct'an. They don't DREAM of Tigurius-Centstar in SW drop pods.....they don't believe that anyone COULD dream of it. Their gaming department is a bunch of beer-and pretzel gamers, and that's why the game has such poor balance when played with tougher lists. It's balanced for "I'll take 1 of everything" style gaming.
And the entire reason for it was to sell the armies that NO ONE played. Barely anyone played Tau, same with Eldar. Now they're just dominating. They simply exceed at everything with all their units and have almost no down side. They removed "Assault from Reserves" units and models because these specific shooti armies thought it was too "OP" and unfair that these said models and units could bypass having to traverse the table and taking 80% of their models in casualties. Oddly enough There was NO 7th edition backlash when it was informed that Overwatch rumors of not being able to fire at full BS the next turn were not present in the 7th Edition.
Army popularity is entirely locally dependent. I know a lot of people with Tau or Eldar armies before last year, but they were shelved because, frankly, they were garbage. They are seeing table time now because they are good again, and their Orks, BA, sisters and whatnot are back on the shelf.
As for removing assault from reserve.....It was REALLY bad game design. Assault is extremely decisive, and being able to get into melee without being shot was really unfair. Shooting may chip a few models off of a unit, but nothing removes entire units like a successful round of melee. Trust me on this, I played a stealer shock list in 5th, I know what charging from outflank could do. It makes for a really dumb game when your opponent cannot get within 18" of a short board edge because that's the effective charge range of some units, especially in gaming shops that only have room for 4'x4' boards. Having only a 12" inch "safe" zone is, fully and completely, bad game design. Even on a 6'x4' board, you lose more than half the board.
The issue with assault being dead in 6th onward is many faceted.
-Removing charge from reserve, especially outflank really hurt offensive units, but was a good change in and of itself IMO. Charging 50 genestealers into melee uncontested made for boring games.
-Removing causalities from the front. Hurts SO BAD. It basically "pushes" units away from you and further delays them getting to melee.
-Overwatch. Not a game changer in and of itself, but another nail in the coffin.
-Random charge ranges. 6" was IN in 5th edition, now you basically need to be within 3-4" to be assured to within a reasonable margin. Sure, the CHANCE for longer charges is there, but game plans are build are what you CAN do, not what you MIGHT do. Combined with overwatch AND removing models from the front is just awful. I've have units 3" away from the enemy get hit really badly on overwatch and end up having to make a 9" charge all of a sudden.....which you are more likely than not to fail.
-Removed the ability to charge from a parked transport. Really bad nail in the coffin for MeQ armies...until they screw up someday and give one of the imperial armies an open-topped transport, then you will be seeing some, erm...magic.
-Gradual shift towards more effective shooting units.
Melee wasn't great even in 5th, but 6th and 7th was death to it by a pile of small stacking changes that made a BIG difference. All that's left that's really effective in melee is extremely fast, extremely tough units for their points, so they can bypass the push-back, overwatch and random charge range mechanics.
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Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!
See my gallery for Chapterhouse's Tervigon, fully painted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/01 05:58:40
Subject: Re:What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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It's shooty compared to previous editions. With 6-th ed changes many decent 5-th ed mellee builds lost their effectiveness to the point of being auto-loose. Just cause the rules shifted towards shooting too hard. 7-th ed is basically the same but without rediculously op and abusive focus fire, no overwatch from pinned, no precision shots from characters and some other minor nerfs to shooting.
Both choppy and shooty paths are viable atm but mellee is still harder to pull off and such builds require to get focused around it or REALLY tough stuff to make it there. Thus said, while it's possible to go all-shooty, it's usually worth it to have at least some mellee protection in face of cheap 'bauble wrap' or anti-charge units.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/01 06:15:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/01 06:06:06
Subject: Re:What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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To be honest, either is gret. It is up to your particuler play style and level of skill. In earlier editions shooting was practically non-existant. Now however guns actually play a part in the game. as to if they play too large a part... that depends on who you talk to. personally I feel that they should play a larger part as it is a sci fi game where a plethora of projectile weapons are easy to find while a close assault can eat right through the guns should a player have the skill to find ways to get there (not that hard, especially with the advent of 7th edition.
Be ready for this thread to turn into a flame fest soon however as you will find that many of those here have VERY strong feelings on it and are not afraid to turn on the flames.
When it comes down to it though, it is undeniable to skill plays the largest part and personal preference should be what you use to choose in which direction to go.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/01 08:47:23
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
Connah's Quay, North Wales
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That all said, their are some VERY powerful melee units running around that can easily win games against shooting armies that are ill prepared to face them. I've seen it loads of times, A Tau player asks me what army i play, and i say Dark Eldar, he preceded to drop an Aegis Defense Line with lots of Fire Warrior squads all bunched up with an Etherial as well as a few support elements. He then gets slightly uncomfortable when he sees me place down 2 separate full Beast Packs lead by the Baron or a Shardseer. He conceded turn 3 after the Beasts got a 4 unit Multi-charge and ran them all down.
Assault may of got worse, but i'd like to think the criteria for being a good assault unit has changed. You need to be fast, that means move 12'' and still assault. You need to be killy enough to handle most shooting units, you don't need to be able to handle Hammerntors. You need to be survivable enough to survive a turn or 2 of shooting and still be effective, so that means a passable armour/invul or easy access to cover/Psycher trickery. Finally you need a fair few models to allow you to Multi-Charge.
I would put the top 3 Assault units as
1) Invisible Fleshhound/Seekerstar
2) Baron lead Beastpack
3) Wraithstar
All fast, all durable and all able to mulch through shooty units. Sure 40k is a shooty game, but as always, you can play the anti-meta!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/01 12:11:09
Subject: Re:What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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koooaei wrote:It's shooty compared to previous editions. With 6- th ed changes many decent 5- th ed mellee builds lost their effectiveness to the point of being auto-loose. Just cause the rules shifted towards shooting too hard. 7- th ed is basically the same but without rediculously op and abusive focus fire, no overwatch from pinned, no precision shots from characters and some other minor nerfs to shooting.
Both choppy and shooty paths are viable atm but mellee is still harder to pull off and such builds require to get focused around it or REALLY tough stuff to make it there. Thus said, while it's possible to go all-shooty, it's usually worth it to have at least some mellee protection in face of cheap 'bauble wrap' or anti-charge units.
Changing the challenge rule to no longer favor the weaker side also has gone a long way. Weak characters can no longer take one for the team to invalidate a good CC model and lone strong characters can no longer delay the inevitable by challenging a character,
Orks work really well as combat army again due to 3 big changes:
1) Fixing the Waaagh!. Ever since 6th broke the rule, orks were having trouble in combat, anything the 2d6 gave to you, the casualties from the front took away again. With the Waaagh! orks can bridge insane distances in one turn, giving back the guaranteed second or third turn assault.
2) 'ere we go. This rule was pure genius by GW, it pretty much prevents you from ever massively fudging your rolls. It's really hard to fail a charge when you can reroll the lowest dice.
3) Toughing up rank-and-file orks. Since you can pretty much chuck painboyz everywhere now, or have a nigh-invincible MA boss tank shots for them, orks take a lot less casualties while moving up the board and while in combat, no longer just beating their enemies by a margin, but by a fair amount.
Add the things they already had to that, and you have an all-around solid close combat army. Now they just have to apply what they have learned from orks to the rest left standing in the rain - basically anyone without cheap assault vehicles or 12" movement.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 09:41:47
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Battleship Captain
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Daemons also work fairly well too. Daemons of slaanesh are extremely fast, and have access to lots of cheap psykers with telepathy.
Equally, khornate daemons with the banner of blood get the aforementioned D6+6" charge and have access to seriously tough chariots and flesh hound packs.
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 12:34:19
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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It's a combination of things, but mostly the following:
-Random Charge range.
-Overwatch
-A lot of low-AP shooting.
-Good melee weapons are usually quite expensive.
-No charging after arriving from Reserve/Deep Strike
-Most 'melee'-units have a ranged-tax, where they pay additional points for their ranged weaponry.
-Many units are really slow, so it takes ages to get to the enemy.
-Deep Strike has a lot of scatter.
-You can take an Objective and shoot at the same time, that's usually not possible with melee.
It are a lot of little things, but all of them combined really favours shooting a lot more than melee.
One example would be my ASM-weaponry, a Hand Flamer is 5 points more than a Flamer.
Twice as many points because it gives you an additional attack, even though the weapon itself is a lot weaker.
Same goes for Infernus Pistols and Meltaguns: Halve the ranged, but 5 points more.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/02 12:45:22
Subject: What, exactly makes 40k a "shooty" game?-- New(ish) player wants to know.
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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The other aspect is that CC doesn't really have much of a niche or purpose at the moment.
I mean, in 5th you'd generally use combat for either a high volume of AP2 attacks or to remove a unit from cover.
Now though, in addition to high-strength Torrent Flamers, there are a plethora of other weapons that ignore cover, as well as equipment and powers that grants Ignores Cover to weapons. So, in most cases, assault just isn't necessary to remove a unit from cover.
Similarly, with most CC weapons losing AP2, a lot of melee units have lost the ability to deal with 2+ saves. And, because of the other problems with assault, there's rarely a reason to take CC units with poorer melee weapons - it's almost always better to just use a shooty unit instead.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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