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Meh leave staves on librarians, normal guys dont need it

I would say the same for my local meta, I have a lot in my local meta that would eat paladins with insta-death weapons making them completely useless to when those points can be used towards full kitted out Dreadknights that would wreck face to any that oppose them. The only thing DKs lack compared to a Paladin squad is 2 less wounds and less CC attacks but makes up for it with a torrent flame, 6 shots from a Psycannon or a large blast and then re-roll hits and wounds on none daemons so those attacks are going to connect at S10 AP2. Also, I use the points for 2 Librarians to get Sanctuary and Invisibility making those 5 Terminators more than that. This is why I have I still have been so hesitant with taking Paladins but people have been heralding their effectiveness with the price drop it has made me consider them.

 Envihon wrote:
This is why I have I still have been so hesitant with taking Paladins but people have been heralding their effectiveness with the price drop it has made me consider them.

From my perspective, people have been heralding GKT with the price drop, Paladins are about the same...or worse without the Draigo FoC change.

 ductvader wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
This is why I have I still have been so hesitant with taking Paladins but people have been heralding their effectiveness with the price drop it has made me consider them.

From my perspective, people have been heralding GKT with the price drop, Paladins are about the same...or worse without the Draigo FoC change.

In actual usage they both got a points drop. The termies literally did, and the Pallies are so much cheaper just due to the Apothecary's 55 pt reduction that they're cheaper in that regard.


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 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Meh leave staves on librarians, normal guys dont need it

One nice little egg I noticed about the new Libby is that he's WS5 now, and that a Daemon Hammer only costs him 5 points. Stick him in a Termie squad where the Sarge can take a challenge, then let the Libby be your "hidden power fist".


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 daedalus wrote:
Has anyone considered GKGMs instead of librarians. The idea of being able to pack that extra psycannon and have a beat stick is compelling, plus you get ML2 as well.

GMs seem a little over-costed to me. Paying for another mastery level and 1 more attack doesn't really do it for me. I'm digging the new Brother-Captains. One of these guys just armed with a Psycannon and Halberd or Falchions is super cheap and killy.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
This is why I have I still have been so hesitant with taking Paladins but people have been heralding their effectiveness with the price drop it has made me consider them.

From my perspective, people have been heralding GKT with the price drop, Paladins are about the same...or worse without the Draigo FoC change.

In actual usage they both got a points drop. The termies literally did, and the Pallies are so much cheaper just due to the Apothecary's 55 pt reduction that they're cheaper in that regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Meh leave staves on librarians, normal guys dont need it

One nice little egg I noticed about the new Libby is that he's WS5 now, and that a Daemon Hammer only costs him 5 points. Stick him in a Termie squad where the Sarge can take a challenge, then let the Libby be your "hidden power fist".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:
Has anyone considered GKGMs instead of librarians. The idea of being able to pack that extra psycannon and have a beat stick is compelling, plus you get ML2 as well.

GMs seem a little over-costed to me. Paying for another mastery level and 1 more attack doesn't really do it for me. I'm digging the new Brother-Captains. One of these guys just armed with a Psycannon and Halberd or Falchions is super cheap and killy.

Honestly, for the same 185 Points that to get a GKGM, I would just take Stern in his place. To me the only down side to Stern is that you don't get the possibility of getting other psychic powers but a guaranteed Sanctuary is enough for me. I do see a lot of Terminators in GK lists now but there are several people saying that Paladins are a good choice as well for the cheaper FNP now but like I said, I would rather spend it on getting two Librarians. Talk about a psychic power house. Yeah they don't have the stats of GKGM but dang if they don't pack a psychic punch. Just imagine this, two Librarians (One Telepathy and one Sanctic with DLD) with Psychic Shriek and Cleansing Flame on a group that you are about to assault and the more than makes up for the CC prowess of the GKGM or the Psycannon from a Brother-Captain. The only downside is possibility of Perils but you can also miss in the shooting phase.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Meh leave staves on librarians, normal guys dont need it

One nice little egg I noticed about the new Libby is that he's WS5 now, and that a Daemon Hammer only costs him 5 points. Stick him in a Termie squad where the Sarge can take a challenge, then let the Libby be your "hidden power fist".

True, but having it on a level 3 libby with a psychic hood, means that against level 3 psykers you're deying on a 4+ rerolling 1s, or against anything a lower level, denying on 3+ rerolling 1s. And it makes the libby 6 str, 8 with hammerhand. So he pretty much has a base hammer without the ap

The AP is half of the reason for taking a hammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which is also str10 on the librarian with HH.

Yeah, I have to agree with obsidiankatana on this one, the relatively cheap AP2 of a libby with a hammer is definitely a boon. When you add in the obligatory hammerhand, S10 AP2 is pretty snazzy. Plus if you're running the libby as ML3, you shouldn't have much trouble denying between his high ML and the ability to reroll 1's with the Aegis, making the adamantium will bonus largely irrelevant.

This is precisely why my old "Mordrak" model (a kitbashed Bro-Cap with a hammer) is now going to stand in as a Librarian. I am even toying around with swapping out the stormbolter for a combi-plasma just because i have the bit handy, but that's a discussion for another thread, i think.

I still like the Warding staff on the Librarian and if I have an extra 5 points, I throw him a Storm Bolter to make himself useful during the shooting phase with the rest of his squad. I see the Warding Staff on the Librarian as a good mix between fluffy and usefulness. The AD on that staff is so useful when going up against a fellow psyker, especially if they are lower than the Librarian. With the staff it is a regular 4+ to Deny the Witch, combine that with the possibility of being a high Mastery Level and it goes to a 3+ Deny for 12" around that Libby. That is the best psychic defense besides a Rune Priest which is only second to a Culexus so unless you are packing one of those, I am keeping the Warding Staff on the Librarian. It is a great defensive item mixed with being a decent offensive item.

Yea, if I have points left over, I'll give the Libby a gun before another melee weapon

 Envihon wrote:
I still like the Warding staff on the Librarian and if I have an extra 5 points, I throw him a Storm Bolter to make himself useful during the shooting phase with the rest of his squad. I see the Warding Staff on the Librarian as a good mix between fluffy and usefulness. The AD on that staff is so useful when going up against a fellow psyker, especially if they are lower than the Librarian. With the staff it is a regular 4+ to Deny the Witch, combine that with the possibility of being a high Mastery Level and it goes to a 3+ Deny for 12" around that Libby. That is the best psychic defense besides a Rune Priest which is only second to a Culexus so unless you are packing one of those, I am keeping the Warding Staff on the Librarian. It is a great defensive item mixed with being a decent offensive item.

Yeah I certainly wasn't thinking the Staff was bad by any means. I just personally feel like having him be ML3 and having the Aegis gives any unit he's with a decent bump in psychic defence, and WS5 on a hidden Daemonhammer is pretty nasty.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I still like the Warding staff on the Librarian and if I have an extra 5 points, I throw him a Storm Bolter to make himself useful during the shooting phase with the rest of his squad. I see the Warding Staff on the Librarian as a good mix between fluffy and usefulness. The AD on that staff is so useful when going up against a fellow psyker, especially if they are lower than the Librarian. With the staff it is a regular 4+ to Deny the Witch, combine that with the possibility of being a high Mastery Level and it goes to a 3+ Deny for 12" around that Libby. That is the best psychic defense besides a Rune Priest which is only second to a Culexus so unless you are packing one of those, I am keeping the Warding Staff on the Librarian. It is a great defensive item mixed with being a decent offensive item.

Yeah I certainly wasn't thinking the Staff was bad by any means. I just personally feel like having him be ML3 and having the Aegis gives any unit he's with a decent bump in psychic defence, and WS5 on a hidden Daemonhammer is pretty nasty.

The staff can be on a model in the unit he is attached to and due to its wording he still benefits from that. So you can have both!

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I still like the Warding staff on the Librarian and if I have an extra 5 points, I throw him a Storm Bolter to make himself useful during the shooting phase with the rest of his squad. I see the Warding Staff on the Librarian as a good mix between fluffy and usefulness. The AD on that staff is so useful when going up against a fellow psyker, especially if they are lower than the Librarian. With the staff it is a regular 4+ to Deny the Witch, combine that with the possibility of being a high Mastery Level and it goes to a 3+ Deny for 12" around that Libby. That is the best psychic defense besides a Rune Priest which is only second to a Culexus so unless you are packing one of those, I am keeping the Warding Staff on the Librarian. It is a great defensive item mixed with being a decent offensive item.

Yeah I certainly wasn't thinking the Staff was bad by any means. I just personally feel like having him be ML3 and having the Aegis gives any unit he's with a decent bump in psychic defence, and WS5 on a hidden Daemonhammer is pretty nasty.

How is it a hidden Daemon Hammer when he will be brandishing his croquet mallet for all to see? These are Grey Knights, man! Not some would-be assassin.

Sergeant gloriously intervenes on the librarian ' behalf that he may strike down greater foes?

 Elmir wrote:
Why not both?

I don't think strike squads are ever going to be a better choice than terminators. Sword terminators with psycannon clock in at 185... that's a pretty decent deal.

Decent... not: "lol I'll just spam this 6 times and faceroll my opponent" like the waveserpent (also obj secured).

This is something that shouldn't be overlooked.

I definitely think that GK Terminators will be the most used Terminators in game even from non-GK players with how many people I heard that they now want to get into GK to have them as a surgical strike ally to drop a Librarian and a squad of Terminators in their back to wreck havoc.

The question is then, are Terminators better when equipped with things like Halberds and Hammers like the past Codex or can we get away with just force swords on Terminators?

 Envihon wrote:
I definitely think that GK Terminators will be the most used Terminators in game even from non-GK players with how many people I heard that they now want to get into GK to have them as a surgical strike ally to drop a Librarian and a squad of Terminators in their back to wreck havoc.

The question is then, are Terminators better when equipped with things like Halberds and Hammers like the past Codex or can we get away with just force swords on Terminators?

I think each squad needs at least 1 hammer. For 10 man squads I am thinking 2. The halberd thing has been bugging me. The +1 str seems nice and all for 2 points, but with hammerhand is str 7 really that much better than str 6? I am not sure. I am thinking of magnetizing my swords and halberds so I have options. I would love to be 'sold' on one vs the other though.

 Rezyn wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I definitely think that GK Terminators will be the most used Terminators in game even from non-GK players with how many people I heard that they now want to get into GK to have them as a surgical strike ally to drop a Librarian and a squad of Terminators in their back to wreck havoc.

The question is then, are Terminators better when equipped with things like Halberds and Hammers like the past Codex or can we get away with just force swords on Terminators?

I think each squad needs at least 1 hammer. For 10 man squads I am thinking 2. The halberd thing has been bugging me. The +1 str seems nice and all for 2 points, but with hammerhand is str 7 really that much better than str 6? I am not sure. I am thinking of magnetizing my swords and halberds so I have options. I would love to be 'sold' on one vs the other though.

That is not how I look at it though, mine is more of a back up plan on the off chance that hammerhand doesn't go off and even being one warp charge, there is a chance that it won't go off and I see it as a 2 point insurance plan. There is a difference between S4 and S5 as those who lament about psybolts being gone will tell you. To throw more dice at hammerhand takes away from powers that needs and unnecessarily gives the possibility of rolling Perils on a low priority power. If I need to slim down on points, I will cut the Halberds though but they are a nice item to have on squads. I know a lot of people have been saying now Falchions are the new thing especially on GKSS, and Interceptors though, giving everyone more attacks and there might be something to that but they are also double the cost of Halberds. Plus, I am a traditionalist and I still like to see GK go into battle with Halberds. I do agree on the hammers though, at least on Terminator squads.

Swords: Good all around and yes S6 is just as good as S7 in most instances.

Falchions: used too boost attacks on small squads or squads where the sword guys will whether the fire, also used to get an additional attack on a justicar

Halberds: Another option for a Justicar or for some squads that won't be casting hammerhand regularly, purgators, strikers, interceptors Also good for the last 2 pts

Stave: Great for boosting to S6/Hammerhand 8 and more psychic defense for an important unit (Makes Hammers less necessary)

Hammer: By the gods take 1 per 5 guys Getting standard S8 AP2 is huge and knocking out T5 on S10 is great (though you could force weapon up too) Take for LandRaider insurance.

Well, my 5 Termie squad has psycannon, daemon hammer, and 3 halberds.
Halberds are really cheap and useful just in case you missed or failed to cast hammer hand.

 Envihon wrote:

 Rezyn wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I definitely think that GK Terminators will be the most used Terminators in game even from non-GK players with how many people I heard that they now want to get into GK to have them as a surgical strike ally to drop a Librarian and a squad of Terminators in their back to wreck havoc.

The question is then, are Terminators better when equipped with things like Halberds and Hammers like the past Codex or can we get away with just force swords on Terminators?

I think each squad needs at least 1 hammer. For 10 man squads I am thinking 2. The halberd thing has been bugging me. The +1 str seems nice and all for 2 points, but with hammerhand is str 7 really that much better than str 6? I am not sure. I am thinking of magnetizing my swords and halberds so I have options. I would love to be 'sold' on one vs the other though.

That is not how I look at it though, mine is more of a back up plan on the off chance that hammerhand doesn't go off and even being one warp charge, there is a chance that it won't go off and I see it as a 2 point insurance plan. There is a difference between S4 and S5 as those who lament about psybolts being gone will tell you. To throw more dice at hammerhand takes away from powers that needs and unnecessarily gives the possibility of rolling Perils on a low priority power. If I need to slim down on points, I will cut the Halberds though but they are a nice item to have on squads. I know a lot of people have been saying now Falchions are the new thing especially on GKSS, and Interceptors though, giving everyone more attacks and there might be something to that but they are also double the cost of Halberds. Plus, I am a traditionalist and I still like to see GK go into battle with Halberds. I do agree on the hammers though, at least on Terminator squads.

Yeah the str5 boost is a big selling point for me. Definitely worth 2 points in my opinion. I think my main hesitation is modeling all of my termies that way and then being like 2-4 points over on a list and not being able to adjust them accordingly. Thats what keeps me leaning towards magnetizing(at least a couple of them)

On a side note the loss of the str5 psybolt storm bolters was a low blow. I haven't played a game yet with the new dex but I imagine that having an impact on my shooting performance. Its a shame really, as I still dont believe it was OP since we paid 20 points for it.

 Rezyn wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Rezyn wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I definitely think that GK Terminators will be the most used Terminators in game even from non-GK players with how many people I heard that they now want to get into GK to have them as a surgical strike ally to drop a Librarian and a squad of Terminators in their back to wreck havoc.

The question is then, are Terminators better when equipped with things like Halberds and Hammers like the past Codex or can we get away with just force swords on Terminators?

I think each squad needs at least 1 hammer. For 10 man squads I am thinking 2. The halberd thing has been bugging me. The +1 str seems nice and all for 2 points, but with hammerhand is str 7 really that much better than str 6? I am not sure. I am thinking of magnetizing my swords and halberds so I have options. I would love to be 'sold' on one vs the other though.

That is not how I look at it though, mine is more of a back up plan on the off chance that hammerhand doesn't go off and even being one warp charge, there is a chance that it won't go off and I see it as a 2 point insurance plan. There is a difference between S4 and S5 as those who lament about psybolts being gone will tell you. To throw more dice at hammerhand takes away from powers that needs and unnecessarily gives the possibility of rolling Perils on a low priority power. If I need to slim down on points, I will cut the Halberds though but they are a nice item to have on squads. I know a lot of people have been saying now Falchions are the new thing especially on GKSS, and Interceptors though, giving everyone more attacks and there might be something to that but they are also double the cost of Halberds. Plus, I am a traditionalist and I still like to see GK go into battle with Halberds. I do agree on the hammers though, at least on Terminator squads.

Yeah the str5 boost is a big selling point for me. Definitely worth 2 points in my opinion. I think my main hesitation is modeling all of my termies that way and then being like 2-4 points over on a list and not being able to adjust them accordingly. Thats what keeps me leaning towards magnetizing(at least a couple of them)

On a side note the loss of the str5 psybolt storm bolters was a low blow. I haven't played a game yet with the new dex but I imagine that having an impact on my shooting performance. Its a shame really, as I still dont believe it was OP since we paid 20 points for it.

Honestly, I have been theory crafting lists lately, and there are not a lot of instances where I can't take the Halberds. They are so cheap that they don't really make big impacts or where I am over where eliminating will free up points. Luckily I have an understanding gaming group that let's me not have to run what-you-see-is-what-you-get but we try as much as possible. I will be slowly converting everything though to reflect my decisions because last edition I put nothing but swords on my GKSS and Interceptors where now everything is Halberds.

I do hate that psybolt ammo is gone but it freed up some points to do other things with and honestly for the most part instead of rolling threes, it's now fours like every other normal marine. I haven't see a huge difference quite yet because a lot of people make their saves so it is what it is. Psycannons and Incinerators do the bulk of the killing like they did last edition and this encourages you to get your GKs into CC. So it sucks but not the end of the world and you have to modify your tactics slightly. The Psycannon going salvo hasn't hurt me at all because my Interceptors are alway within 12" anyway.