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So while reading the fluff and BL novels I realized SM aren't even human after all the psycho-indoctrination and augmenting. There anatomy is already completely inhuman and it seems their training has suppressed or outright removed certain basic human emotions and a lot of their instincts. Just wondering what people think of this.

Genetically they are still human. The only thing that qualifies as a "true" posthuman are techpriests.

It depends on your definition of human.
If you give a human some extra organs and indoctrinate him, is he not a human anymore?

their genetics are different, their organs are different, their physical capabilities are different, and they are unable to have children.

They are modified humans that have things and can do things that no normal human can.

so no they really aren't human.

I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
their genetics are different, their organs are different, their physical capabilities are different, and they are unable to have children.

They are modified humans that have things and can do things that no normal human can.

so no they really aren't human.

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They are modified humans being the key term. You have to be human to be a modified human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Anyone can train themselves to ignore their fear or survival instincts. Most special forces and even regular soldiers are trained to ignore the fear to do the job.
Emotions? Anyone can supress emotions or just lack them from birth. What emotions? Love? They love the Emperor and their brothers. Happiness? The galaxy is at war, you can be happy when its free.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
their genetics are different, their organs are different, their physical capabilities are different, and they are unable to have children.

They are modified humans that have things and can do things that no normal human can.

so no they really aren't human.

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They are modified humans being the key term. You have to be human to be a modified human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Anyone can train themselves to ignore their fear or survival instincts. Most special forces and even regular soldiers are trained to ignore the fear to do the job.
Emotions? Anyone can supress emotions or just lack them from birth. What emotions? Love? They love the Emperor and their brothers. Happiness? The galaxy is at war, you can be happy when its free.

yes they are genetically different look at this

"Gene-seed is the colloquial term used amongst the Adeptus Astartes for the genetic material that allows for the creation of the super human Space Marines. The gene-seed is actually those germ cells and viral machines that have been genetically-engineered to develop into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human adolescent male to transform him into a Space Marine." taken from here.

these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup. For example the human genome is made up of many viruses, in fact they are very important to our genetic code for example genetic diseases are inherited by most if not all humans.

Viruses are instrumental in evolution and a single virus led to the creation of us.

the addition of these viruses and the vast difference in capabilities compared to normal humans means that it is safe to assume that the genetic makeup is significantly different enough that they are no longer human. There is further evidence of this in that space marines have never had a single child, (even with all the space wolf whoring). A species must be able to reproduce with itself, so if space marines are unable to have children, then their genetic makeup is much too different to accommodate a child. Since their genetic makeup is too different to allow for reproduction with a normal human, they by definition cannot be human.

They still have their own genetics, can't change that. They have additional organs, not different ones. The heart, stomach, lungs, intestines, liver and kidneys are all their own, born with them. The third point? What, you saying a professional strongman who can lift cars is not human? Finally, it has never been proven they are incapable, just lack desire.

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with. They can spit acid, and they can devour parts of a sentient being's body and gain memories and genetic comprehension of it. That's just two of them.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.VAds_VduXbY

And, yes, you *can* change genetics. That's the whole point behind geneseed implantation and the primogen glands.

Yes they are human. The are a subspecies of human at best.

They're classified as Homo Astartes, a distinct subspecies. They're super humans. So human, but also not.

Not really. They're superhuman. Bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, etc. Think Captain America, humans are Steve Rogers before the serum and Marines are Rogers after the serum, and instead of a fancy shield (well, sometimes a shield, too) you get a full suit of armour. Or the Spartan program from the Halo franchise... you get the idea. So they're "sort of" humans but they exist alongside "normal" humans and are therefore superhuman.

Their DNA is not altered. Gene-seed is used to create several organs that are implanted into the Marine, not grown within their own body. Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants that are created from an STC, because it's quite similar. What turns a Marine into a Marine is the processes of those implanted organs, which mostly create engineered hormones.

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup. For example the human genome is made up of many viruses, in fact they are very important to our genetic code for example genetic diseases are inherited by most if not all humans.

Viruses are instrumental in evolution and a single virus led to the creation of us.

You greatly misunderstand what a virus is.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the addition of these viruses and the vast difference in capabilities compared to normal humans means that it is safe to assume that the genetic makeup is significantly different enough that they are no longer human. There is further evidence of this in that space marines have never had a single child, (even with all the space wolf whoring). A species must be able to reproduce with itself, so if space marines are unable to have children, then their genetic makeup is much too different to accommodate a child. Since their genetic makeup is too different to allow for reproduction with a normal human, they by definition cannot be human.

That is not the definition of a species. Even if it was, your logic is flawed. You're saying that their DNA is altered (which would make them their own species) and that a species must be able to reproduce, but Space Marines can't. Are you suggesting that Space Marines aren't even organisms? Also, them not being able to have children has nothing to do with their "genetic makeup being too different" (as would be the case with, say, dogs and cats), but due to a probable lack of reproductive organs.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

If cloning technology was so simple in 40K, which it isn't. Though Fabius Bile seems to have it down pretty well.

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

This is the Imperium. There's all kinds of things that can make a certain class of people "not human".

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Their DNA is not altered. Gene-seed is used to create several organs that are implanted into the Marine, not grown within their own body. Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants that are created from an STC, because it's quite similar. What turns a Marine into a Marine is the processes of those implanted organs, which mostly create engineered hormones.

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup. For example the human genome is made up of many viruses, in fact they are very important to our genetic code for example genetic diseases are inherited by most if not all humans.

Viruses are instrumental in evolution and a single virus led to the creation of us.

You greatly misunderstand what a virus is.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

the addition of these viruses and the vast difference in capabilities compared to normal humans means that it is safe to assume that the genetic makeup is significantly different enough that they are no longer human. There is further evidence of this in that space marines have never had a single child, (even with all the space wolf whoring). A species must be able to reproduce with itself, so if space marines are unable to have children, then their genetic makeup is much too different to accommodate a child. Since their genetic makeup is too different to allow for reproduction with a normal human, they by definition cannot be human.

That is not the definition of a species. Even if it was, your logic is flawed. You're saying that their DNA is altered (which would make them their own species) and that a species must be able to reproduce, but Space Marines can't. Are you suggesting that Space Marines aren't even organisms? Also, them not being able to have children has nothing to do with their "genetic makeup being too different" (as would be the case with, say, dogs and cats), but due to a probable lack of reproductive organs.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

I tend to think of the space marines more like mules in this case. Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia page on mules.

"Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile.

There are no recorded cases of fertile mule stallions. A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.[13] Herodotus gives an account of such an event as an ill omen of Xerxes' conquest of Greece in 480 BC: "There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at Sardis,—a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule" (Herodotus The Histories 7:"

im not saying that space marines are not organisms, only that they cannot reproduce.

oh yes and viruses are essentially little capsules full of dna that invade cells and utilize the cells organs to replicate.

Would homo sapiens even exist by then? or would it be some sort of other species. assuming you believe in evolution... or is that heresy?

Joking aside, they would still be humans. just incredibly indoctrinated battle monks.

It be like saying people with transplants and prosthetic aren't human anymore.

We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

The thing that is particularly notable about Fabius is that he seems to have figured out how to clone Astartes with their artificial organs already present. So basically he's created what people are suggesting in this thread that Space Marines already are. Either that or he's just learned to manipulate gene-seed, which is a feat in of itself.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

EDIT: @Desubot - Exactly. Also, there's no reason to believe that the modern humans of 40k aren't homo sapiens. Besides, look at dogs. A lot can vary within a species before they start pushing the boundaries of "species".

@Sledgehammer - You miss the point. Space Marines can't reproduce because they don't have reproductive organs. If it was because their DNA was different, Space Marines would be inseminating and failing to produce offspring. This is not the case. Your definition of "species" was that they had to be able to reproduce with each other. Space Marines cannot reproduce with each other. By your logic this means that, even if their DNA was unique, they would not be a species.

We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

All definitions of "human" are insane. What separates us from the other primates? Are those things not simply insane?

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

Citation needed.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

Servitors are what happens to you if you make the AdMech angry. There are many, many people who qualify for that.

At best, they may vat-grow certain organs for implantation into various things and people, but that's more stem-cell tech than full-body cloning.

What separates us from other primates is our DNA. That's kind of how species classification works. We don't classify species based on their psychology or how they feel about things.

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

I'm pretty sure they "vat-grow" Servitors if they need to. I looked it up, and Lexicanum's article begins with:

Lexicanum, Servitor wrote:While many are vat-grown, often a criminal, particularly one who has offended the Cult Mechanicus, will be sentenced to "Servitude Imperpituis" and will be handed over to the Tech-priests to be mind-wiped, reprogrammed, and cybernetically-enhanced to serve some specific, rudimentary function.

A search for "vat-grow" on Lexicanum also brings up:

Lexicanum, Culexus Temple wrote:The Culexus temple is known to hunt down and recruit these Pariahs but also to vat-grow them.

Lexicanum, Praetorian Servitors wrote:
Praetorians are created from vat-grown giants or mind-scrubbed Ogryns.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

The thing that is particularly notable about Fabius is that he seems to have figured out how to clone Astartes with their artificial organs already present. So basically he's created what people are suggesting in this thread that Space Marines already are. Either that or he's just learned to manipulate gene-seed, which is a feat in of itself.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

EDIT: @Desubot - Exactly. Also, there's no reason to believe that the modern humans of 40k aren't homo sapiens. Besides, look at dogs. A lot can vary within a species before they start pushing the boundaries of "species".

@Sledgehammer - You miss the point. Space Marines can't reproduce because they don't have reproductive organs. If it was because their DNA was different, Space Marines would be inseminating and failing to produce offspring. This is not the case. Your definition of "species" was that they had to be able to reproduce with each other. Space Marines cannot reproduce with each other. By your logic this means that, even if their DNA was unique, they would not be a species.

there is no fluff stating one or the other as games workshop avoids the topic, there is no supporting evidence either way, all we know is that they don't have any kids with human female women. Whether it is because of a difference in chromosomes, or a lack of reproductive organs is pure speculation. I lean on the side of genetic incompatibility because it seems more probable to me that the geneseed would change their chromosome number to make them infertile with normal human females.

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
We're not talking about Imperial definitions of human, we're talking about actual, not-insane, definitions.

Cloning is easy, especially if we consider that the process would have been there from the beginning (they didn't lose the ability to clone and become forced to do the implantation method, and if Space Marines could just be cloned, The Emperor would have done it).

The thing that is particularly notable about Fabius is that he seems to have figured out how to clone Astartes with their artificial organs already present. So basically he's created what people are suggesting in this thread that Space Marines already are. Either that or he's just learned to manipulate gene-seed, which is a feat in of itself.

Speaking of Imperial cloning, don't they sometimes do that to make Servitors and other Tech-Thralls?

EDIT: @Desubot - Exactly. Also, there's no reason to believe that the modern humans of 40k aren't homo sapiens. Besides, look at dogs. A lot can vary within a species before they start pushing the boundaries of "species".

@Sledgehammer - You miss the point. Space Marines can't reproduce because they don't have reproductive organs. If it was because their DNA was different, Space Marines would be inseminating and failing to produce offspring. This is not the case. Your definition of "species" was that they had to be able to reproduce with each other. Space Marines cannot reproduce with each other. By your logic this means that, even if their DNA was unique, they would not be a species.

there is no fluff stating one or the other as games workshop avoids the topic, there is no supporting evidence either way, all we know is that they don't have any kids with human female women. Whether it is because of a difference in chromosomes, or a lack of reproductive organs is pure speculation. I lean on the side of genetic incompatibility because it seems more probable to me that the geneseed would change their chromosome number to make them infertile with normal human females.

It would all be speculation for sure.

I think it would probably have to do with some flavor of hormones or something destroying or preventing the use of there special equipment Or just a straight up neutering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

we did clone sheep though IIRC

Edit: NVM apparently we have cloned a BUNCH of animals. (but not really vat grown)

@Sledgehammer - The problem with that explanation is that it requires the existence of "Space Marine DNA" which, as I have said previously, makes the entire situation with gene-seed and organ implantation completely pointless. It would mean that Space Marines could just be cloned, which they evidently can't.

@Psiensis - We can't, not really. We haven't cloned a human because of the ethical implications, not because we can't do it.

EDIT: However, what we really should be asking is "Are Space Marines human... or are they dancer"?

I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

Neither, they are Devo!

On the aspect of vat-grown servitors...

Many Servitors are more machine than flesh (while others are the opposite). Are we sure that Lexi is not suggesting that the more-machine ones simply vat-grow the brainmatter required to act as the CPU, installing it into a pre-fabricated machine body after installing the required engrammatic programs for its function directly into the brain?

The reason I bring that up is because the Lexi article on Servitors is taking some serious liberties with its sources, and is missing rather a lot of information about the miscellaneous servitors appearing in other sources.

Like that line from Star Wars "He's more machine than man now." as in they lack a lot of what makes humanity redeemable (Most Space Marines are olympic level jerks barring a few.)

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

But that's basically what monks do today, though not as extreme. complete control through insane meditation and faith in the empara.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
@Sledgehammer - The problem with that explanation is that it requires the existence of "Space Marine DNA" which, as I have said previously, makes the entire situation with gene-seed and organ implantation completely pointless. It would mean that Space Marines could just be cloned, which they evidently can't.

@Psiensis - We can't, not really. We haven't cloned a human because of the ethical implications, not because we can't do it.

EDIT: However, what we really should be asking is "Are Space Marines human... or are they dancer"?

what i am saying is that the implantation of the geneseed makes them a completely new species.

there is no real world equivalent to such a rapid and sudden change in genome in a single individual in a single generation. Is it a new species, or is it a large insane mutation that results in infertility with other members of its (former) species.

I will use an analogy. lets say i have a Volks Wagon Bug and i keep putting more and more modifications on it. these modifications are internal, external, performance increasing, and aesthetic. at what point does the bug no longer become a bug? The base of the car is a bug, but it has a new engine, a new look, and a new profile. whether it is a bug or not is up to the individuals discretion.

what is ultimately true is that you first need a bug in order to make the modifications as you wouldn't be able to put the modifications on the base of any other car.

the geneseed is the modification that in my opinion makes the bug essentially a new car.

 Desubot wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I was talking in a more spiritual sense, like they lack what tends to define humans the most i.e. empathy, fear, sympathy, etc.

But that's basically what monks do today, though not as extreme. complete control through insane meditation and faith in the empara.

I don't really mean controlled as much as gone. They just took out the parts of the SM's head that don't work. If you can take away a man's instincts and his empathy is he still a man?

OH THE PHILOSOPHY IS GLORIOUS!

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants...

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

So wait, you're saying that a human with a pacemaker is... what, exactly? Still a human?

Anyway.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup.

You know if you read the article and were interested in knowing anything, you might be saying the complete opposite thing to what you are saying.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

...

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Think of the implants as no different to cybernetic implants...

By the way, a Tech-Priest who has removed their entire body and replaced most of their brain with computer parts is still one hundred percent human. "Transhuman" is not a species, either is "superhuman". Both just refer to a human being whose body is beyond the capabilities of normal humans.

So wait, you're saying that a human with a pacemaker is... what, exactly? Still a human?

Anyway.

 Sledgehammer wrote:


these viruses change destroy mutate and inject their own dna into the dna of the space marines thereby changing their genetic makeup.

You know if you read the article and were interested in knowing anything, you might be saying the complete opposite thing to what you are saying.

 Psienesis wrote:

They have a whole lot of extra organs that no human being is born with.

They aren't born with them. The whole process of gene-seed harvesting and organ implantation would be entirely moot if you could just take a DNA sample from any Marine and clone them from scratch. Literally the only effort required would be to supply the growing Astartes with nutrients and some sort of embryonic growth chamber. They could be manufactured en masse with great ease.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I also mean in the sense that psychologically a lot of the instincts and emotions that makes us human have been removed or suppressed. So not really human in body or mind.

...

Nothing "makes us human" other than our genetics. Every single one of the various forms of Mechanicus pseudo-robot are human. Servitors, Thallax, even Servo-Skulls. All are human. You suggest that people who do not have the expected measure of human psychology are actually not human; braindead people, insane people, and so on.