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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

To be fair, there are dogs that are brown, hairless and shorter than my knee, and dogs that are big enough for me to ride, very haired and black, yet they are both dogs.

What exactly defines a new species?

I am not sure if the reproduction argument holds given the synthetic nature of the Marine ascension.

Dogs are kind of a bad comparison as they are the species with the most genetic variation to our knowledge.

Anyway according to wikipedia "A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring."

Since GW has skirted around the subject we do not know why space marines don't have kids. It might be that radiation makes them infertile. They are celibate (not space wolves lol), or they are genetically incompitable. if they are genetically incompatible then they are no longer of the same species.

Assuming genetic incompatibility I will go back the mule comparison with space marines. Mules cannot have off spring with either horses, or donkeys (ok female mules can but its super super rare), and they are essentially genetically incompatible with both of their parent's races. Space marines cannot have offspring with the human race due to their genetic incompatibility.

neither reproduce and are genetically different from their parents. in that case i would call them a different species.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

Actually we do, only instead of acid for dissolving food in our mouths, we secrete a base. Our stomach however does secrete acid, and damn potent stuff at that.

you know what i meant

As said, a female marine is theoretically possible. Maybe she would not be sterile. If so, the reproduction argument does not hold.

(:

I am really playing devil's advocate now, ain't I?

That's not the scientific definition. It's a good general way of describing a species, but it's not concrete. Wikipedia isn't a good place to get exact information, either, but even it says "often defined as".

EDIT: Ashiraya, there's not really any reason why it wouldn't be totally possible. I'm pretty sure The Emperor created his "bulwark against the terror" to be male-only, rather than it just coincidentally being incompatible. Maybe it wasn't even for sexist reasons - maybe he just wanted them to resemble him as much as possible.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

this.

People can't produce acid and we can't magically implant someone with a snake's poison sack and expect it to work.
You need to genetically change or alter the body in order to allow for continued sustaining of a formerly foreign organ that it did not know how to operate.

Hell, most people reject organs from humans. this is why so many initiates die, because their genetics either can't take the geneseed or their bodies reject the implants.

Actually we do, only instead of acid for dissolving food in our mouths, we secrete a base. Our stomach however does secrete acid, and damn potent stuff at that.

Hydrochloric acid out of your stomach will not permit you to dissolve handcuffs in seconds. Sorry, it's not *that* potent. Also, you only cause yourself comparatively mild discomfort when you regurgitate said acid into your mouth, rather than dissolving your entire face. So not only are Space Marines modified to secrete this acid, they are also given something that prevents them from eating through their own mouths with it.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your assertion that space marines are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't necessarily bear out.

And if Space Marine organs didn't alter their DNA, the organs wouldn't function. The body operates based off of its genetic structure. This is not a problem for ACTUAL transplants in real life because they add no additional features; but it IS a problem for the organs that allow a person to do something that they genetically cannot do.

To be fair, there are dogs that are brown, hairless and shorter than my knee, and dogs that are big enough for me to ride, very haired and black, yet they are both dogs.

What exactly defines a new species?

I am not sure if the reproduction argument holds given the synthetic nature of the Marine ascension.

Dogs are kind of a bad comparison as they are the species with the most genetic variation to our knowledge.

Anyway according to wikipedia "A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring."

Since GW has skirted around the subject we do not know why space marines don't have kids. It might be that radiation makes them infertile. They are celebrate (not space wolves lol), or they are genetically incompitable. if they are genetically incompatible then they are no longer of the same species.

Assuming genetic incompatibility I will go back the mule comparison with space marines. Mules cannot have off spring with either horses, or donkeys (ok female mules can but its super super rare), and they are essentially genetically incompatible with both of their parent's races. Space marines cannot have offspring with the human race due to their genetic incompatibility.

neither reproduce and are genetically different from their parents. in that case i would call them a different species.

You do realize the much more likely option is that 1) due to indoctrination and hypnotherapy, they're probably about as sexually active as a corpse? And that 2) if they did have sex with somebody, they're liable to kill the lover with their strength, and only artificial fertlization like with livestock breeding would work?

AND GOD DAMMIT DAKKA, WE WENT A MONTH! A WHOLE MONTH WITHOUT DISCUSSING SPACE MARINE DICKS! DAMMIT!

-resets Days Without Astartes Dicks Being Mentioned back to zero-

You were the one that mentioned their Little Heavy Bolters. We were talking about the science of human (and otherwise) reproduction.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's not the scientific definition. It's a good general way of describing a species, but it's not concrete. Wikipedia isn't a good place to get exact information, either, but even it says "often defined as".

According to that definition Mules, and Space Marines are not a species because they always die out in the first generation, but for the purposes of argumentation i will say that their inability to produce offspring is evidence of a drastic change in genetics to the point of being a species even though they technically don't meet the specification.

I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

 Psienesis wrote:
You were the one that mentioned their Little Heavy Bolters. We were talking about the science of human (and otherwise) reproduction.

It was a horrible chess move by the enemy. You mention sterility and the topic will immediately come up. Maybe someday GW will just answer the question.

Maybe it's just me, having written several 15-page essays on them, but I think we can discuss reproductive systems in a mature and civil manner.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Maybe it's just me, having written several 15-page essays on them, but I think we can discuss reproductive systems in a mature and civil manner.

The civility doesn't matter, it's just that we're discussing the reproductive systems of a fictional entity and their sexuality. As a Warsie as well, I don't remember that coming up when discussing Jedi. Or Mandalorians.

Hey guys, is the Marine yaoi starting now?

 Melissia wrote:
No. Space Marines are mutants biologically, and inhuman psychologically.

I guess it ranges from chapter to chapter.

Hey guys, is the Marine yaoi starting now?

That was the thread about Custodes and French maid outfits.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

If sterility is the fault of environmental change in the host due to the process of becoming a space marine, then we could simply take sperm from initiates before they are space marines (or those that got too old before they were found to be have been included) and expose them to the viruses that make up the gene seed. This goes back to the article i posted earlier about viruses traveling from one generation to the next via infiltration of the reproductive cells.

Ehm, the Space Marine Initiate is, most commonly, a pre-pubescent boy.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

Simply take the sample from a guardsmen who could have been an initiate, but somehow slipped through the cracks and become too old to be an initate.

Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Maybe it's just me, having written several 15-page essays on them, but I think we can discuss reproductive systems in a mature and civil manner.

The civility doesn't matter, it's just that we're discussing the reproductive systems of a fictional entity and their sexuality. As a Warsie as well, I don't remember that coming up when discussing Jedi. Or Mandalorians.

Why is that a problem? It doesn't matter with Jedi or Mandalorians because they are not in a similar situation. Space Marine reproductive systems, on the other hand, are quite relevant.

Ashiraya wrote:Hey guys, is the Marine yaoi starting now?

It began with Rogue Trader. Where's the cover art for that book, which features two Ultramarines wrestling while others watch?

Sledgehammer wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

If sterility is the fault of environmental change in the host due to the process of becoming a space marine, then we could simply take sperm from initiates before they are space marines (or those that got too old before they were found to be have been included) and expose them to the viruses that make up the gene seed. This goes back to the article i posted earlier about viruses traveling from one generation to the next via infiltration of the reproductive cells.

Please read everyone's responses to you previously in this thread.

EDIT:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

Choir boys sound like that because of a lack of hormones (mostly testosterone) in their development. A hormone deficiency is the last thing a Space Marine will have.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

That's... not what castration is.

Sledgehammer wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

If sterility is the fault of environmental change in the host due to the process of becoming a space marine, then we could simply take sperm from initiates before they are space marines (or those that got too old before they were found to be have been included) and expose them to the viruses that make up the gene seed. This goes back to the article i posted earlier about viruses traveling from one generation to the next via infiltration of the reproductive cells.

frozenocean wrote:
Please read everyone's responses to you previously in this thread.

i couldn't find a response to that.

i really want to know why changing the dna of a reproductive cell with the geneseed before it undergoes radiation would not work.

you could then artificially inseminate women with it and have space marine babies.
if those babies can reproduce then they are human if they cannot then the mule comparison is very apt.

if the artificial insemination does not result in babies then Astarte are not human.

 Psienesis wrote:

Growing organs is more difficult than cloning people. If they can do something as complex as that, then it would be easy. Cloning is "stem-cell tech".

Then why are we capable of doing one but not the other in the modern era?

We can grow organs via stem-cells. We have not yet successfully cloned someone.

We could totally clone a person right now, if it wasn't an incredibly taboo thing to do artificially. Plus it would be unethical given the health problems the clone will experience due to genetic degradation.

Identical twins are effectively natural clones as well. So it is not only possible, it happens naturally(but doing it artificially has ethical problems)

Cloning something is relatively easy. Its not nearly as hard as trying to artificially regulate the growth of a new organ. One simply requires swapping out DNA, the other requires stem cell cultures, artificial hormone regulation, etc...

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

That's... not what castration is.

Woops, I meant Castrato voices.

I think the natural occurrence of identical twins is off the mark for this discussion, especially considering that Space Marines definitely don't happen naturally (in-universe or otherwise).

Furthermore, identical twins are not (necessarily) clones of either of their parents (they should, in fact, be roughly 50/50), so I would hesitate to say that one twin is the clone of the other. It's... not quite the same "photocopying" mechanic in play.

As far as the ethical concerns go... the bans on various kinds of cloning technologies is very patchwork across the world. It is, perhaps, most notable that no Federal law in the US bans human cloning.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think the natural occurrence of identical twins is off the mark for this discussion, especially considering that Space Marines definitely don't happen naturally (in-universe or otherwise).

Furthermore, identical twins are not (necessarily) clones of either of their parents (they should, in fact, be roughly 50/50), so I would hesitate to say that one twin is the clone of the other. It's... not quite the same "photocopying" mechanic in play.

As far as the ethical concerns go... the bans on various kinds of cloning technologies is very patchwork across the world. It is, perhaps, most notable that no Federal law in the US bans human cloning.

They're not clones of their parents, they're actually a clone of each other.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I hold the belief that Astartes Dicks (TM) are surgically removed as part of the process of implantation. There's no reason for them to have a family of organs that will only hinder them.

Besides, even if they weren't removed, spermatogenesis is a delicate process and can be greatly hurt by even slight hormonal, chemical, or thermal imbalances. I imagine that what would be left of the reproductive system of a Space Marine after the body-altering organs are done would be completely inoperable.

Considering they sound like Clint Eastwood, and not choir boys, they most certainly are not castrated.

That's... not what castration is.

Woops, I meant Castrato voices.

That's still not what castration is. For the effect you're talking about, that's losing the berries before puberty. Losing the twig is... optional, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I think the natural occurrence of identical twins is off the mark for this discussion, especially considering that Space Marines definitely don't happen naturally (in-universe or otherwise).

Furthermore, identical twins are not (necessarily) clones of either of their parents (they should, in fact, be roughly 50/50), so I would hesitate to say that one twin is the clone of the other. It's... not quite the same "photocopying" mechanic in play.

As far as the ethical concerns go... the bans on various kinds of cloning technologies is very patchwork across the world. It is, perhaps, most notable that no Federal law in the US bans human cloning.

They're not clones of their parents, they're actually a clone of each other.

Still not quite in the same ballpark of what is being discussed here. This is more whether or not the Space Marine, following the genetic manipulation that makes them a Space Marine, including the implantation of the progenoid glands, makes them something other than humans.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:


It is a case of artificial genetic chimerism. Tell me which part of "space marines are genetic chimerae" means they don't have the same genes anymore.

then that would mean that the gene seed is/are the organs being implanted.
Gene seed from my knowledge is the modification (whether by adding, destroying, modifying etc) of genetic material that allows a space marine to accept these implants and allow them to function properly without drugs.

the whole purpose of the gene seed is to accommodate for the implants. if anyone could receive them then there would be a lot more space marines, and a lot less dead initiates.

Look, the first thing you have to amend is that the quote you keep using appears only on the 40k wiki. It is a fabrication.

Secondly, yes, gene seed is the organs that are culturesd from the Primarchs. They do not re


Look, nobody on the other side of this appears to know what animals are.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It doesn't matter with Jedi or Mandalorians because they are not in a similar situation. Space Marine reproductive systems, on the other hand, are quite relevant.

Or irrelevant. A marine is "only" a human with biological implants and modifications. Even if he had working equipment he can't pass on the new traits, just as a top-level athlete (years of training, medication and steroids) won't magically produce children with improved physical characteristics.

As for why it was made so complicated, well, maybe that is what the Emperor wanted? Having to find compatible implantation candidates means even the haughtiest looking-down-on base humans Chapter has to protect the people in their recruiting area. All of them, if possible. Every marine will intellectually know he was first born of a human woman before he was made special. Superhumans that could just breed and replenish their ranks would soon have no use for baseline humanity except as slaves.

If you read the older books (Realm of Chaos) then the Emperor did not specifically set out to create Space Marines, they were a necessity after losing the Primarchs. His original intention was to create a new race of super-humans with the Primarchs being the first of many.

After the Primarchs were lost the Emperor didn't have the time or ability to recreate them and so, using what scraps of genetic material were left created the implants that would turn a regular human into something more Primarch-like.

Things may well be a little different now with the HH series (although I can't think of anything off the top of my head the specifically contradicts that earlier background) but the Space Marines were something the Emperor created to make the best of a bad job; The Emperor didn't want modified humans, He'd already made those (Thunder Warriors) and they had a built in redundancy so that they would die out after the Emperor no-longer required them which, considering they conquered the Sol System for Him seems pretty damn harsh. Is it any wonder that Space Marine, for whatever reason, just don't father children? Maybe the natural biological imperative to breed does not exist in Space Marines because that is what the Emperor wanted, loyal little minions to fight His wars for Him and then afterwards just go away and die.

That kind of bottles the mind. How exactly would the all-male primarchs be a new race if they can't reproduce though?

If you replaced humanity with the primarchs, humanity would vanish in a generation. Sure that generation would be longer than a normal generation, but they'd still die off eventually.