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2014/09/05 23:17:56
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: Yeah. That game looks like a barrel of laughs, but $25 is a bit steep for a visual novel (there's a reason I haven't been buying them even though the genre has finally started hitting the Steam store).
I do recommend this game. Not really a visual novel, even though it is based on Renpy, a visual novel engine. Do not let the visual fool you, this is more like Games of Throne than cute princesses. Just give a look at the list of achievements ! There are many way to build up your character, and some of them include turning Elodie into a damn killing machine capable of bludgeoning to death anyone in a duel. But, spoiler, that might not help you much if you do not have other skills at your disposal .
Also, if we are into indie game with female character, http://store.steampowered.com/app/241320/ . That little brute Ittle Dew and her sidekick Tippsie are female character done right in my book.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/05 23:18:44
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: Yeah. That game looks like a barrel of laughs, but $25 is a bit steep for a visual novel (there's a reason I haven't been buying them even though the genre has finally started hitting the Steam store).
I do recommend this game. Not really a visual novel, even though it is based on Renpy, a visual novel engine. Do not let the visual fool you, this is more like Games of Throne than cute princesses. Just give a look at the list of achievements ! There are many way to build up your character, and some of them include turning Elodie into a damn killing machine capable of bludgeoning to death anyone in a duel. But, spoiler, that might not help you much if you do not have other skills at your disposal .
Also, if we are into indie game with female character, http://store.steampowered.com/app/241320/ . That little brute Ittle Dew and her sidekick Tippsie are female character done right in my book.
Long Live The Queen is an amazing game
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/09/05 23:20:13
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It gave different options that (in my opinion) were realistic for each gender. As a women, you didnt have to sell your body, but just like in real life, the option was there.
Stats are universal, some perks and options arent. Gender was more than a skin, but didnt change the way you played the game unless you chose to use your gender to gain perks (sometimes degrading yourself in the process).
Best RPG games made in my opinion. Especially some of the scenes you find in the desert (talking cows, doctor who, aliens, killer rabbit from the holy grail etc). Great fun.
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa
Fallout 2 has doctor who and montey python stuff in it?
Ok now I'll go check out that game.
Fallout one has the tardis thingy in the desert. Gotta have good luck I noticed to find it.
Fallout 2, my friend showed me how to add in this "locked encounter" (its on google somewhere) and you find the rabbit haha.
Definitely get it from GOG. It works on my windows 8 really well. If you get it from steam you need to do some notepad coding to get it working.
2014/09/05 23:23:24
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Yes it is. I still need to take one afternoon with pen and paper to really go deep into the game though .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/05 23:51:35
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Second, this reminds me of that old French classic, obviously inspired by the same video, too bad you are all going to miss on the lyrics!
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/06 01:25:49
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Two weeks ago I didn't even consider the question, or look into feminism in video games at all. I spend at least an hour of every day perusing the news and reading the papers, but I'm always more interested in World Affairs, Economics, and anything and everything to do with the war on terror and all of the myriad Islamic terror groups that are operating on almost every continent. After two weeks of frantic research, I am already sick and tired of the question, especially after reading all about most of the known women who critique the industry, most of them are attacking people for nothing, needlessly taking offense at absolutely everything, or just being angry because of some non-insult like "you have nice teeth."
Furthermore, it cheapens the suffering of all the women around the world who have to deal with actual misogyny on a daily basis. There appear to be tens of thousands of women who talk sense on this issue, but none of them are "names" and perhaps that is the problem, we are in love with sensationalism, because all of the "names" discussing this have repulsed me with their lack of honesty and integrity. Anyway, regarding the topic, I am presuming that women do not like playing as big muscular men, totally understandable, I am a straight man and I like playing as a straight man. However, because men are the target market because they are easily the largest demographic, (I mean, pick one of the best selling games of last year, surely 80% of sales were to guys right?) then surely the issue exists because the one causes the other?
If the games sell well and make money, why would the devs change them? I think that it is only fair to make games more like ME and allow the player to choose the sex, but if the big companies are still making money, they have no incentive to bother and ultimately I don't think it is the end of the world. I would have still enjoyed ME3 if I had to play as fem-Shep, and I absolutely loved playing as Alexandra Roivas in Eternal Darkness. Id have preferred to be called Alan Roivas, but ultimately it is a minor issue, the playablity is far more important that what is between the legs of the primary character.
I don't for a second believe that not having more sex options causes women not to play though. My wife and all of her friends give less than a gak about video games, and it isn't because of sex issues, its because they don't give a gak. They probably aren't even aware that this discussion is taking place, or that some games do indeed allow you to choose.
Anyway yeah so that's my two cents, I'm relatively disinterested. Would the world be a tiny bit better if more women played more games and video games were a bit less sexist? Sure, but I think the problem is not really anywhere near as large a problem as militant feminists pretend it is, and I have very little respect for the likes of Anita Sarkesian because I have been asking girls like her for a decade why they are always so silent about their sisters across Africa and the Middle East and I never got a good answer.
It turns out they are silent because they are too busy getting outraged about polite Irish blokes nicely asking them for a coffee, or worrying about the amount of cock in video games.
I'll just be over here worrying about FGM and Sharia courts thanks girls.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 01:30:09
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2014/09/06 01:34:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
mattyrm wrote: Two weeks ago I didn't even consider the question, or look into feminism in video games at all. I spend at least an hour of every day perusing the news and reading the papers, but I'm always more interested in World Affairs, Economics, and anything and everything to do with the war on terror and all of the myriad Islamic terror groups that are operating on almost every continent.
After two weeks of frantic research, I am already sick and tired of the question.
Especially after reading all about most of the known women who critique the industry, most of them are attacking people for nothing, needlessly taking offense at absolutely everything, or just being fething childish.
Furthermore, it cheapens the suffering of all the women around the world who have to deal with actual misogyny on daily basis.
There appear to be tens of thousands of women who talk sense on this issue, but none of them are "names" perhaps that is the problem, we are in love with sensationalism, because all of the names have repulsed me with their lack of honesty and integrity.
Anyway, regarding the topic, I am presuming that women do not like playing as big muscular men, totally understandable, I am a straight man and I like playing as a straight man.
However, because men are the target market because they are easily the largest demographic, (I mean, pick one of the best selling games of last year, surely 80% of sales were to guys right?) then surely the issue exists because the one causes the other?
If the games sell well and make money, why would they change them? I think that it is only fair to make games more like ME and allow the player to choose the sex, but if the big companies are still making money, they have no incentive to bother.
I don't for a second believe that not having more sex options causes women not to play though. My wife and all of her friends give less than a gak about video games, and it isn't because of sex issues, its because they don't give a gak. They probably aren't even aware that this discussion is taking place, or that some games do indeed allow you to choose.
Anyway yeah so that's my two cents, I'm relatively disinterested. Would the world be a tiny bit better if more women played more games and video games were a bit less sexist? Sure. But the biggest buyers are men, so what do you expect is going to happen?
I think the problem is not really anywhere near as large a problem as militant feminists pretend it is, and I have very little respect for the likes of Anita Sarkesian because I have been asking girls like her for a decade why they are always so silent about their sisters across Africa and the Middle East and I never got a good answer.
It turns out they are silent because they are too busy getting outraged about polite Irish blokes nicely asking them for a coffee, or worrying about the amount of cock in video games.
I'll just be over here worrying about FGM and Sharia courts thanks girls.
Millitant really? You thing figures like Sarkensian are militant? mattyrm, sweetie pie you really must have no idea what's out there. On the grand scale of things she hardly even registers as insistant let alone militant.
Secondly if you're going to hide behind the ol' "Well theres bigger problems in the world", line well then you better not ever complain or get upset by a single that happens in your life, to your hobbies, or that other people do around you because trust me: There is somebody else out the world right now making the worst day of your life look like absolute heaven on earth. It's a nonsense argument that borders on self-parody. It's your mom's "There are starving children in Africa who would love your broccoli" argument, it doesn't even come close to holding water and frankly you should be embarrassed you're trying to pass it off as a legitimate point in a discussion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 01:38:10
2014/09/06 01:36:30
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Secondly if you're going to hide behind the ol' "Well theres bigger problems in the world", line well then you better not ever complain or get upset by a single that happens in your life, to your hobbies, or that other people do around you because trust me: There is somebody else out the world right now making the worst day of your life look like absolute heaven on earth. It's a nonsense argument that borders on self-parody. It's your mom's "There are starving children in Africa who would love your broccoli" argument, it doesn't even come close to holding water and frankly you should be embarrassed you're trying to pass it off as a legitimate point in a discussion.
Are... are you saying that starving children in Africa WOULDN'T love his broccoli?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 01:41:50
Secondly if you're going to hide behind the ol' "Well theres bigger problems in the world", line well then you better not ever complain or get upset by a single that happens in your life, to your hobbies, or that other people do around you because trust me: There is somebody else out the world right now making the worst day of your life look like absolute heaven on earth. It's a nonsense argument that borders on self-parody. It's your mom's "There are starving children in Africa who would love your broccoli" argument, it doesn't even come close to holding water and frankly you should be embarrassed you're trying to pass it off as a legitimate point in a discussion.
Are... are you saying that starving children in Africa WOULDN'T love his broccoli?
It would prove wether or not the idea of "If you were really hungry you would actually eat it" is true or false.....
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/06 01:51:10
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
You know, it's really screwed up, but I actually LIKED broccoli as a child.
This explains everything wrong about you...
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2014/09/06 02:09:19
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Millitant really? You thing figures like Sarkensian are militant? mattyrm, sweetie pie you really must have no idea what's out there. On the grand scale of things she hardly even registers as insistant let alone militant.
Secondly if you're going to hide behind the ol' "Well theres bigger problems in the world", line well then you better not ever complain or get upset by a single that happens in your life, to your hobbies, or that other people do around you because trust me: There is somebody else out the world right now making the worst day of your life look like absolute heaven on earth. It's a nonsense argument that borders on self-parody. It's your mom's "There are starving children in Africa who would love your broccoli" argument, it doesn't even come close to holding water and frankly you should be embarrassed you're trying to pass it off as a legitimate point in a discussion.
Fair do's. As I said, I'm blissfully ignorant about militant as feth feminists because I was born and raised in England and have never actually met a super-militant feminist in person. I know maybe two that are pretty interested in the movement, but they are nowhere near some of those gals, certainly they would not get offended if a bloke politely asked them out, and as for men drooling over scantily clad women, they (rightly in my view) point out it is more damning of mens stupidity than real world harmful to women.
Regarding the second point, why would I be embarrassed? I didn't say that womens rights weren't an issue, I am a feminist, my wife is better than me at almost everything, I think I'm actually very progressive on this issue. I simply said said most of the issues I have read this last fortnight were not a genuine womens rights issue (misogyny in video games) because we are not talking about the right to vote, or not get groped by strangers, or only having your word worth half of a mans in a court. We appear to be talking about manufactured offense to get publicity and at worst what... the fact that more men play games so the devs pander to a silly stereotype? That is just offensive to me as a man that doesn't think with his testicles as it is to a woman.. its like everyone thinks that people that play games are sex-starved weirdos who need to drool over women 10 hours a day!
The fact that most video games have large male protagonists is not offensive to the vast majority of women, so the ladies of the West agree with me, not you.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2014/09/06 02:45:28
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
nomotog wrote: You know. We aren't really talking about Sarkensian or feminist in this thread. This isn't about what they think. It's about what you/we think.
Oh yeah well I covered that. I think they overdo the baps and the muscles because it makes everyone who doesn't play games that everyone who plays games is a bit weird, and that's silly because its 2014 and half of the fething world are "gamers" but yeah... I don't think its a huge deal or anything, I suppose teenage boys are a large part of the market, and they do so love them some tits and violence.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2014/09/06 03:23:21
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
mattyrm wrote: After two weeks of frantic research, I am already sick and tired of the question
Then stop reading about it.
There's nothing obligating you to click those links when you google. Or to participate in this discussion. If you're really tired of it, tune it out. Let the people who actually care have the discussion. No one is threatening your safety here. Unlike what is happening to quite a few female journalists.
mattyrm wrote: especially after reading all about most of the known women who critique the industry, most of them are attacking people for nothing
Are they only known to you because the misogynists who started and shout loudest about "Gamergate" as an excuse to send violent, hateful comments, threats, and other such harassment to female game journalists are taking up a big gak over them? Because I know plenty of women whom have criticized the industry WITHOUT doing this. (including Sarkesian, whom doesn't do this)
mattyrm wrote: Furthermore, it cheapens the suffering of all the women around the world
If you're going to dismiss the entire subject by claiming "oh first world problems", well, frankly... screw you. Just because things are worse elsewhere doesn't mean that they can't be made better here. Nor does it stop people from also worrying about things over there at the same time.
I'm not going to give up fighting for something that personally effects me just because some random people on the internet shout "ermagerd forst wurld problamz."
mattyrm wrote: and perhaps that is the problem, we are in love with sensationalism
I've been talking about this for far longer than people have been talking about Sarkeesian and Quinn, and yet you claim I'm in love with sensationalism? Just because you've only been paying attention to sensationalist news doesn't mean everyone has.
mattyrm wrote: However, because men are the target market because they are easily the largest demographic, (I mean, pick one of the best selling games of last year, surely 80% of sales were to guys right?)
According to the industry's own statistics, the largest single demographic in the gaming industry are 20- and 30-something women, not teenaged boys, or adult men. And that demographic is getting larger by the year.
mattyrm wrote: If the games sell well and make money, why would the devs change them?
For one, because it's the right thing to do and a good segment of their potential buyers want it. But since you're apparently not concerned about that, the efficiency argument is simple: because they could be making MORE money by thinking in the long term and growing their playerbase instead of just being satisfied with cheap short-term thrills.
mattyrm wrote: ultimately it is a minor issue, the playablity is far more important that what is between the legs of the primary character.
It is a minor issue to you. Most games cater to you as a white man, so it's far less noticeable to you.
mattyrm wrote: My wife and all of her friends give less than a gak about video games, and it isn't because of sex issues, its because they don't give a gak.
So what? I know plenty of men who don't play either, and in fact plenty who HATE video games and think they're tools of the devil. More men who would argue that (such as both of my brother-in-laws and a quarter of the men in my extended family...), in fact, than women who aren't interested in playing video games in some form. Even my 60-something mother is interested in video games and plays games on the Wii.
edited to try to stick to more on topic stuff.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2014/09/06 04:37:15
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/06 04:38:27
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
See Mel, I've defended you on here plenty of times because you have never crossed the line for me into "militant" merely active feminism, and that is a good thing. But you don't get to call me a misogynist, a 34 year old married man with no evidence suggesting I have ever been one, just because I fully agree with almost every tenet of feminism, and fully disagree with any and all acts of threats, intimidation, and violence.. but also happen to disagree with the loudest and most obnoxious feminists who in my eyes, have an agenda to pursue. There is also the obvious fact that they do not represent most women.
Who decides what makes someone a feminist? You? I treat women with dignity and respect, I always have, that is why women adore me, its not because of my baby blue eyes and winning personality....
All I'm saying is, you don't get to label me just because you feel very strongly about something. I am definitely not a misogynist and I don't think any woman I have ever met would label me as one.
I laid my position out in the last thread that was needlessly locked, but you read it. I was very clear, I think women should have more representation and I am all for it, but I do not think that the current glut of women and some of their champions in the press actually want that. They don't actually want equality, they want attention. Some even prevented a women dev competition because it didn't have their name on it. Its perfectly sound, perfectly logical, and has absolutely nothing to do with misogyny. Its actually pretty offensive you just throwing that at me, I have never called you an illogical man hating misandrist and I think you have typed some pretty aggressive stuff compared to me. In my book, these people want money, not equality, and if they are not benefiting from something they see it as a bad thing. That is all I am saying, I think they are making things seem much worse than they are, so they can profit.
I can not arrive at any other conclusion than that, because of the evidence. I think it is clear that many of them are using the political ideals of equality to pursue their own cash driven agenda, so I reckon I am more of a feminist than them too. I wouldn't chase the dollars, I would do the right thing for women.
Regardless, I hauled it back on topic and said I would like to see more clothes and less muscles because I'm not a young thruster and those things are far less relevant than the main crux of the issue, a fething good game, such as my favorite ever, Eternal Darkness (with a female protagonist) so lets just leave it there. If you think of me as a penis wielding oppressor simply because my common sense demands that I have little time for people that appear to profess a passion for feminism but seem far more interested in cash and press, then so be it, but I definitely don't think I deserve such condemnation.
Edit - You actually did call me a misogynist in the first bloody place!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 04:39:14
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2014/09/06 04:50:55
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
... editing the quotes so this doesn't take up five pages...
mattyrm wrote: But you don't get to call me a misogynist [...] All I'm saying is, you don't get to label me [...] Its actually pretty offensive you just throwing that at me [...] If you think of me as a penis wielding oppressor [...] Edit - You actually did call me a misogynist in the first bloody place!
I didn't call you that, I haven't labeled you, I'm not, I never said that, and no, I did not.
mattyrm wrote: I think you have typed some pretty aggressive stuff compared to me.
I know I have. I'm an aggressive person.
mattyrm wrote: but I do not think that the current glut of women and some of their champions in the press actually want that [...] In my book, these people want money, not equality [...] I think they are making things seem much worse than they are, so they can profit. [...] I can not arrive at any other conclusion than that, because of the evidence. [...] simply because my common sense demands that I have little time for people that appear to profess a passion for feminism but seem far more interested in cash and press
Clearly, I disagree with this assertion. I find that you are jumping to conclusions based off of you having only paid much attention to a single "side" of the story.
Perhaps we should take this to PMs.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/06 04:52:14
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/06 04:56:05
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Yes PM me, as I said I stand by my point, that I think the militant people I am detracting are making the vast majority of this gak up for press/their own benefit. However If you can convince me that Princess Toadstool has actually negatively impacted real life womens issues than I will come in here and publicly concede defeat.
Now back to the thread... I think there are indeed a few too many baps in video games and a bit more diversity would be a good and easy to implement thing, but I don't think its anything to massively kick off about.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2014/09/06 05:07:44
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
There's nothing obligating you to click those links when you google. Or to participate in this discussion. If you're really tired of it, tune it out. Let the people who actually care have the discussion. No one is threatening your safety here. Unlike what is happening to quite a few female journalists.
Why do you think these poor, defenseless women getting doxxed and threatened led to such breathless and widespread coverage, while a thirteen year-old getting doxxed and threatened (by some people that some of your pure-as-the-driven-snow victims follow) never did?
There are bullies and threatening scum on all sides of this issue. I have a feeling that you're not quite as outraged over Milo Yiannopoulos getting death threats for his writing on the subject. Is it because he's not on your side of the issue?
I'm also curious why you continue to believe it's a misogynistic movement given the widespread adoption of the #notyourshield hashtag by women and minorities.
I'm not going to give up fighting for something that personally effects me just because some random people on the internet shout "ermagerd forst wurld problamz."
I'd be pretty careful about calling this sort of stuff "fighting for something." All of this strikes me as the most base form of slacktivism. People are tweeting stuff or writing blog posts and expecting it to change the world, and getting angry when it doesn't. It's not exactly Martin Luther King, Jr. marching in Selma.
According to the industry's own statistics, the largest single demographic in the gaming industry are 20- and 30-something women, not teenaged boys, or adult men. And that demographic is getting larger by the year.
And we've been over this countless times. Pretending that distribution holds true across all platforms and genres is farcical. You see plenty of female-friendly features in the areas where female interest is high. If you're not seeing them elsewhere? Well, that's because there aren't a lot of women playing shooters or simulations or wargames.
For one, because it's the right thing to do and a good segment of their potential buyers want it. But since you're apparently not concerned about that, the efficiency argument is simple: because they could be making MORE money by thinking in the long term and growing their playerbase instead of just being satisfied with cheap short-term thrills.
Well, no, it's not the right thing to do, and the "could" in the "could be making more money" is the insidious part. You'll have to prove it. Either to me, because I like such assertions backed up with facts, or to them. Because they're not going to buy that Call of Duty will sell even better if it's tuned to female tastes instead of the tastes of the males who make up, overwhelmingly, its market.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mattyrm wrote: Now back to the thread... I think there are indeed a few too many baps in video games and a bit more diversity would be a good and easy to implement thing, but I don't think its anything to massively kick off about.
I consider your crusade against breasts misogynistic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 05:08:48
2014/09/06 05:14:00
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
mattyrm wrote: Yes PM me, as I said I stand by my point, that I think the militant people I am detracting are making the vast majority of this gak up for press/their own benefit. However If you can convince me that Princess Toadstool has actually negatively impacted real life womens issues than I will come in here and publicly concede defeat.
Now back to the thread... I think there are indeed a few too many baps in video games and a bit more diversity would be a good and easy to implement thing, but I don't think its anything to massively kick off about.
Nope, I need more baps in my vidya gamez!!! Men and women though, so it's okay
White-dude characters are not "Bad"
A preponderance of white-dude characters so as to be the clear default is a problem. Cheesecake and jiggly bits are not "Bad"
A preponderance of male-fantasy character designs so as to be the clear default is a problem. Characters falling into gender stereotypes is not always bad, but usually is unless done with care.
Video games do not stand alone, they are part of and representative of a broader cultural problem.
Gender representation in video games is not a women's rights issue nor a human rights issue. It is however a media problem and it is sexism. Video games are not a rights issue of any sort.
Our cultural context (of which video games are some part), does affect women's and everyone's rights.
The degree to which video games play a role in shaping our cultural context is unquantifiable and by no means a dominate factor, but that's no reason to ignore it entirely. There are both men and women generally dissatisfied with the overall representation of women in video games.
This is not a problem with any one character specifically, princess toadstool or otherwise. It is an issue with broad industry-wide trends.
Given the broad trends any one character might be useful as illustrative example, and often are problematic when viewed in that context.
Our culture has a long history of marginalizing women and this influences all media including video games.
Being able to "not care" about the gender or race of character is a luxury largely afforded by already having a great number and wide variety of characters that share your race and gender.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/06 05:46:25
2014/09/06 05:58:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Seaward wrote: Why do you think these poor, defenseless women getting doxxed and threatened led to such breathless and widespread coverage, while a thirteen year-old getting doxxed and threatened (by some people that some of your pure-as-the-driven-snow victims follow) never did?
The women really haven't gotten "widespread coverage" outside of feminist circles. A lot of my fellow gamers apppear to want to sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen so that they can feel better about the fake "gamergate" movement. Similarly, the thirteen year old has gotten a ton of attention for it from the "opposite" crowd-- however, they were mostly just being used as ammunition by 4channers and redditers such as in the link you gave, rather than people actually caring about it.
I'm not sure if it was here or somewhere else, but I've said before that I find doxxing to be morally repugnant in almost all cases (the exceptions being quite narrow in scope, and do not apply here). Viciously attacking someone by posting their personally identifiable information, especially their location, online is not a defensible thing in an online debate. I'm increasingly pissed off that this is being used as a weapon by ANYONE.
Seaward wrote: There are bullies and threatening scum on all sides of this issue.
Centrism for centrism's sake is not the same as wisdom.
Seaward wrote: I have a feeling that you're not quite as outraged over Milo Yiannopoulos getting death threats for his writing on the subject. Is it because he's not on your side of the issue?
I disapprove of those death threats. But I freely and unashamedly admit that I am far more concerned with the attempts to use threats to silence women who speak up due to the history of misogynists using violence against women whom say things they do not like, just like people have used violence to silence other minority groups as well.
Quoting Margaret Atwood here: "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." In general, this is still a true statement. And it's not just feminists, sometimes something as simple as posting opinions on local politics can trigger verbal abuse such as "I hope you get raped with a gorsebush".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 06:16:48
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/06 06:35:00
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
If... if that is what I think it is... what a strange thing to wish someone is raped by. Like, really pretty incomprehensible. But then again, people are very hard to figure out and they make me wonder if it's one of those other vectors that proves where humanity is not fit to be among. At the same time, I imagine there is a vast and sprawling majority of humanity that are blissfully unaware of all the strange and horrifying things that people are saying on the internet.
! There are many way to build up your character, and some of them include turning Elodie into a damn killing machine capable of bludgeoning to death anyone in a duel. But, spoiler, that might not help you much if you do not have other skills at your disposal 
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