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2014/09/08 15:31:39
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/08 15:37:12
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: I got it for SNES and later on PS1, myself...
Yeah I only played it on the gameboy advanced. And I still consider it to be among the greatest of the final fantasy titles. Everyone always have this love for final fantasy 6. Which I did not like. It started running into that whole. Anime look.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/08 15:39:05
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
IMO, FF6 had a better setting, but FF5 had the best system for gameplay.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/08 15:41:19
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: IMO, FF6 had a better setting, but FF5 had the best system for gameplay.
I liked the setting, But the villain was sort of cut in dry bad guy. And sort of looked like a girl.
He was an INTERESTING bad guy at least. Much better than the whiny little douche in FF9 anyway. Or the whiny little douche in FF7 for that matter.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/08 15:52:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: He was an INTERESTING bad guy at least. Much better than the whiny little douche in FF9 anyway. Or the whiny little douche in FF7 for that matter.
I think that's a bit unfair on Kuja. He's actually one of my favourites as it is possible to relate to and understand his motives.
Basically his entire purpose for existing was taken away from him. He was made to kill but also had a limited lifespan whilst his replacement was made to be more powerful, longer lived and had a soul to boot. And it adds the whole older child basically being replaced in the eyes of the parents by new baby kind of aspect to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:10:59
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/09/08 15:57:14
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: I got it for SNES and later on PS1, myself...
Yeah I only played it on the gameboy advanced. And I still consider it to be among the greatest of the final fantasy titles. Everyone always have this love for final fantasy 6. Which I did not like. It started running into that whole. Anime look.
I found FF5 to be immensely forgettable. I could probably name the characters by their sprites, and that's probably about it. One of them was a pirate, a dragon got involved at some point. My mind is entirely blanking on any of the antagonists, except for the fact I know Gilgamesh first appeared there.
I think it may have been that it just didn't introduce any new ideas. Same general formula as 1, 3, and 4. The character driven stuff from 2/4, plus and a minor update of the class-based approach from 1/3. Every other game in the series has always departed from the others more than 5 has. I think that's probably part of the reason why they didn't release outside JP even after 4 did pretty well.
6 was very, very different from the previous games in the series and a lot of what we'd seen come out in general, which is a lot of why it's so fondly remembered. I'm still amazed and how much was left intact given how aggressive the Nintendo censors were in that era.
EDIT: Though I'll agree FF6 and Chrono Trigger probably get a bit too much attention in my mind as well. Not because they weren't excellent, it's just a lot of other great titles from the era get overlooked.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:03:15
2014/09/08 16:08:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Manchu wrote: Did you just call Sephiroth a whiny, little douche?
He spends the game being a white-haired prettboy playing about with a phallic object piercing a lot of people, shouting "mother" a lot.
He was an interesting villain until I learned more details about him, at which point I just couldn't take him seriously :/
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/08 16:09:31
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: I got it for SNES and later on PS1, myself...
Yeah I only played it on the gameboy advanced. And I still consider it to be among the greatest of the final fantasy titles. Everyone always have this love for final fantasy 6. Which I did not like. It started running into that whole. Anime look.
I found FF5 to be immensely forgettable. I could probably name the characters by their sprites, and that's probably about it. One of them was a pirate, a dragon got involved at some point. My mind is entirely blanking on any of the antagonists, except for the fact I know Gilgamesh first appeared there.
I think it may have been that it just didn't introduce any new ideas. Same general formula as 1, 3, and 4. The character driven stuff from 2/4, plus and a minor update of the class-based approach from 1/3. Every other game in the series has always departed from the others more than 5 has. I think that's probably part of the reason why they didn't release outside JP even after 4 did pretty well.
6 was very, very different from the previous games in the series and a lot of what we'd seen come out in general, which is a lot of why it's so fondly remembered. I'm still amazed and how much was left intact given how aggressive the Nintendo censors were in that era.
EDIT: Though I'll agree FF6 and Chrono Trigger probably get a bit too much attention in my mind as well. Not because they weren't excellent, it's just a lot of other great titles from the era get overlooked.
Yeah FF5 isn't the best of the series, but it is still a reasonable game.
I mean there are quite a few things in the game that were fantastic.
lolno
Spehiroth is the central enigma for most of FFVII.
Still not interesting at all.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/08 16:16:27
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: He was an interesting villain until I learned more details about him, at which point I just couldn't take him seriously :/
Maybe it's a generational thing.
FFVII is the first video game I ever played that really pulled me 'out of reality' into the setting and a big part of that was the strength of the characters.
Spoiler:
When Sephiroth stabbed Aeris, it was like he had just stabbed me.
Perhaps these characters are less compelling to younger players but I would argue it is because they have ascended to archetypal status. Younger players take them and their influence for granted. In a way, saying Sephiroth is not interesting is kind of like saying Achilles is not interesting.
I could definitely agree that figuring out the enigma of Sephiroth is fun, and when you don't quite understand what drives him he's interesting, but then you figure it out and all the interest goes down the drain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:16:49
I personally always preferred his theme that played throughout the game, rather than One Winged Angel which was just his final boss battle theme.
Spoiler:
When you're in Cloud's past and you go down to meet him in the bottom of the Shinra Mansion. Walking through it with the drum heartbeat thumping and the bell tolling. Then Sephiroth says his speech and at the end, just after he says he's going to see his Mother, the choir kicks in. An amazing use of music.
from 2:24 onwards
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:26:12
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/09/08 16:23:23
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: He was an interesting villain until I learned more details about him, at which point I just couldn't take him seriously :/
Maybe it's a generational thing.
FFVII is the first video game I ever played that really pulled me 'out of reality' into the setting and a big part of that was the strength of the characters.
Spoiler:
When Sephiroth stabbed Aeris, it was like he had just stabbed me.
Perhaps these characters are less compelling to younger players but I would argue it is because they have ascended to archetypal status. Younger players take them and their influence for granted. In a way, saying Sephiroth is not interesting is kind of like saying Achilles is not interesting.
... if it's a generational thing, that would mean I'm tge older player, apparently, because I had been gaming for years when it was released, it wasn't really the first one to move me like that. That would be Lufia and the Fortress of Doom on SNES probably, but I don't even think that would be the fist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:24:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/08 16:23:41
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
His theme is pretty definitive of his character. The track musically expresses the overwhelming chaos of his personality. Remember, this was before voice acting. The score was even more important back then because it played a huge role in characterizing the cast.
This is why the theme's of Terra and Aeris are also so powerful. Speaking of Aeris, it is kind of weird that she is the real star of FF7 rather than Cloud. It would interesting to see a feminist analysis of her character.
Melissia wrote: He was an interesting villain until I learned more details about him, at which point I just couldn't take him seriously :/
Maybe it's a generational thing.
FFVII is the first video game I ever played that really pulled me 'out of reality' into the setting and a big part of that was the strength of the characters.
Spoiler:
When Sephiroth stabbed Aeris, it was like he had just stabbed me.
Perhaps these characters are less compelling to younger players but I would argue it is because they have ascended to archetypal status. Younger players take them and their influence for granted. In a way, saying Sephiroth is not interesting is kind of like saying Achilles is not interesting.
The facts are not on your side. We are still talking about him seventeen years later.
I still don't enjoy him. What is his reason for killing everyone? What is his end goal? Is the end goal a good thing or a bad thing?
I love the heroes journey and everything about it. But the villain is sort of required to have more reasoning than just being a badguy which most games seem to think.
In one of my stories, the main villain is annihalting humanity because he thinks its evil. And no that is not a spoiler
I didn't enjoy saphy. He felt sort of a 2d dimensional character. He wasn't rounded. He wasn't interesting.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/08 16:28:14
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: He was an interesting villain until I learned more details about him, at which point I just couldn't take him seriously :/
Maybe it's a generational thing.
FFVII is the first video game I ever played that really pulled me 'out of reality' into the setting and a big part of that was the strength of the characters.
Spoiler:
When Sephiroth stabbed Aeris, it was like he had just stabbed me.
Perhaps these characters are less compelling to younger players but I would argue it is because they have ascended to archetypal status. Younger players take them and their influence for granted. In a way, saying Sephiroth is not interesting is kind of like saying Achilles is not interesting.
The facts are not on your side. We are still talking about him seventeen years later.
I didn't find Sephiroth particularly compelling, even when the game first came out. Though I'll admit it wasn't the most compelling entry in the series for me generally. Unless you count 13 (which got all of 5 minutes of play from me), it's the only game in the series I played but didn't bother to finish.
I kind of liked Red's storyline at the time and Cid is more compelling in hindsight or maybe now just that I'm older. Some of the world was cool, but the cast in general just didn't catch for me.
One of the big problems is that the 3d-models and even cut-scenes of the time were just far too wooden for what they were trying to do. Despite shallow writing and a poor translation, I got more out of the death scene from Phantasy Star IV (on the Genesis/Megadrive!) because they respected their technological limits and set up more evocative shots and the characters faces could emote.
Spoiler warning for a... 21 year old game I guess?
Spoiler:
This was better in 8, and basically entirely fixed in 9.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:34:32
2014/09/08 16:28:36
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: He was an interesting villain until I learned more details about him, at which point I just couldn't take him seriously :/
Maybe it's a generational thing.
FFVII is the first video game I ever played that really pulled me 'out of reality' into the setting and a big part of that was the strength of the characters.
Spoiler:
When Sephiroth stabbed Aeris, it was like he had just stabbed me.
Perhaps these characters are less compelling to younger players but I would argue it is because they have ascended to archetypal status. Younger players take them and their influence for granted. In a way, saying Sephiroth is not interesting is kind of like saying Achilles is not interesting.
... if it's a generational thing, that would mean I'm tge older player, apparently, because I had been gaming for years when it was released, it wasn't really the first one to move me like that. That would be Lufia and the Fortress of Doom on SNES probably, but I don't even think that would be the fist.
I do not remember having been moved by video game ever, personally. Maybe I have, but it left me no memory. The only think I remember is Alien versus Predator 99 being the only game that actually scared me (when playing marine) and being extremely annoyed when finding out I would still play that damn stupid Arthas for a whole campaign and that he was back to a useless level 1 character in Warcraft III. Then again I never cared for Japanese RPG.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 16:28:58
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/08 16:30:53
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: He was an interesting villain until I learned more details about him, at which point I just couldn't take him seriously :/
Maybe it's a generational thing.
FFVII is the first video game I ever played that really pulled me 'out of reality' into the setting and a big part of that was the strength of the characters.
Spoiler:
When Sephiroth stabbed Aeris, it was like he had just stabbed me.
Perhaps these characters are less compelling to younger players but I would argue it is because they have ascended to archetypal status. Younger players take them and their influence for granted. In a way, saying Sephiroth is not interesting is kind of like saying Achilles is not interesting.
... if it's a generational thing, that would mean I'm tge older player, apparently, because I had been gaming for years when it was released, it wasn't really the first one to move me like that. That would be Lufia and the Fortress of Doom on SNES probably, but I don't even think that would be the fist.
I do not remember having been moved by video game ever, personally. Maybe I have, but it left me no memory. The only think I remember is Alien versus Predator 99 being the only game that actually scared me (when playing marine) and being extremely annoyed when finding out I would still play that damn stupid Arthas for a whole campaign and that he was back to a useless level 1 character in Warcraft III.
Then again I never cared for Japanese RPG.
Except there was a reason for that. He is a death knight and learning new ways.
Though it would of been better to give him so boost like chaos damage.
And I love arthas. He is a great villain.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/08 16:34:48
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: ... I'm an older player than you, apparently
I'm surprised you would say that, I thought you knew how old I am. In any case, the "immersion moment" is different for each person. Some people my age hate FF7 because they feel it gets way too much credit compared to FF6. I think that also has to do with a reaction against 32-bit graphics at the time and the fact that 16-bit graphics are very much in style at the moment. It may not seem like much now but FF7's opening cinematic was a jaw-dropper in 1997, especially given the rich sound of Uematsu's score on the PS1. Looking back now, I can agree that FF6 is a better game. But being honest with myself, FF7 made a bigger impact because it was clearly more than "just a video game." I think playing FF7 in 1997 must have been something like what it felt to see Star Wars in 1977. People can say, Darth Vader is so boring. But it's only because Darth Vader has significantly influenced how we think of villains since. And Sephiroth has played the same role for JRPGs.
Asherian Command wrote: What is his reason for killing everyone? What is his end goal? Is the end goal a good thing or a bad thing?
There are answers to those questions. They are some of the reasons Sephiroth is so interesting. Sephiroth was not just a villain because the game needed a villain. If you think so, you need to review the plot.
Melissia wrote: ... I'm an older player than you, apparently
I'm surprised you would say that, I thought you knew how old I am. In any case, the "immersion moment" is different for each person. Some people my age hate FF7 because they feel it gets way too much credit compared to FF6. I think that also has to do with a reaction against 32-bit graphics at the time and the fact that 16-bit graphics are very much in style at the moment. It may not seem like much now but FF7's opening cinematic was a jaw-dropper in 1997, especially given the rich sound of Uematsu's score on the PS1. Looking back now, I can agree that FF6 is a better game. But being honest with myself, FF7 made a bigger impact because it was clearly more than "just a video game." I think playing FF7 in 1997 must have been something like what it felt to see Star Wars in 1977. People can say, Darth Vader is so boring. But it's only because Darth Vader has significantly influenced how we think of villains since. And Sephiroth has played the same role for JRPGs.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I liked FF7. But in terms of personal effect of an RPG series on me, the Lufia and Chrono series' were much more important.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
~4100
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