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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeh, I remember really liking the end cinematic of the Human Campaign, where Arthas goes undead and murders his father.
It was chilling.

one of my fav clips from that game as well as final one in FT

FF6 is by far one of my favorite games. I frankly think it was the best of the series.

I never got into FF7. It's probably a mixture of my annoyance at the character Barret, the mandatory mini games, and the I was playing it on the extremely buggy pc version (the 'crucial' Aeris scene randomly inverted itself so it lost all impact).

 Melissia wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I liked FF7. But in terms of personal effect of an RPG series on me, the Lufia and Chrono series' were much more important.

Sure, I am trying to point out that FF7 was not just a personally important game to me and many others but an important moment is video game history. For good and for ill:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Except there was a reason for that.

The fact there was a reason did not make it any less annoying. He became okay later, but at this stage I pretty much hated him.

 AdeptSister wrote:
(the 'crucial' Aeris scene randomly inverted itself so it lost all impact)

That is a tragedy. You were robbed of a very significant experience there.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
... I'm an older player than you, apparently

I'm surprised you would say that, I thought you knew how old I am. In any case, the "immersion moment" is different for each person. Some people my age hate FF7 because they feel it gets way too much credit compared to FF6. I think that also has to do with a reaction against 32-bit graphics at the time and the fact that 16-bit graphics are very much in style at the moment. It may not seem like much now but FF7's opening cinematic was a jaw-dropper in 1997, especially given the rich sound of Uematsu's score on the PS1. Looking back now, I can agree that FF6 is a better game. But being honest with myself, FF7 made a bigger impact because it was clearly more than "just a video game." I think playing FF7 in 1997 must have been something like what it felt to see Star Wars in 1977. People can say, Darth Vader is so boring. But it's only because Darth Vader has significantly influenced how we think of villains since. And Sephiroth has played the same role for JRPGs.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I liked FF7. But in terms of personal effect of an RPG series on me, the Lufia and Chrono series' were much more important.

Lufia II is one of those games I think is way overlooked. Lufia 2 was the only game to actually get me tear up. Granted I wasn't even 12 years old, but still. Even though I knew what the ending was going in it just seemed so awesome but profoundly unfair when I actually played through it. It really hit me in a way relatively few things have. I still kinda get chills when I hear that music from the last scene under the Island of Doom.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I liked FF7. But in terms of personal effect of an RPG series on me, the Lufia and Chrono series' were much more important.

Sure, I am trying to point out that FF7 was not just a personally important game to me and many others but an important moment is video game history.

It was really only important in that everyone and their mother (plus squenix) seemed to try to emulate it afterwards, often to the detriment of their games and the industry as a whole. An "important thing" that really only hurts the industry isn't something I want to celebrate (see also: starcraft).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chongara wrote:
Lufia II is one of those games I think is way overlooked. Lufia 2 was the only game to actually get me tear up. Granted I wasn't even 12 years old, but still. Even though I knew what the ending was going in it just seemed so awesome but profoundly unfair when I actually played through it. It really hit me in a way relatively few things have. I still kinda get chills when I hear that music from the last scene under the Island of Doom.

Oh, definitely. It is onbe of the best games of its era. Lufia 1, as well-- that moment when you find out that Lufia is really Eris, one of the Sinistrals, trying to redeem herself after losing her memory... I don't know. I felt such a huge amount of empathy for her.

 Melissia wrote:
An "important thing" that really only hurts the industry isn't something I want to celebrate (see also: starcraft).

Oh, yeah, you made me listen back to Total Annihilation soundtrack again, so thank you .

It is way OTT to claim that FF7 "only hurt the industry" I know this is the internet but come on ...

 Melissia wrote:
It was really only important in that everyone and their mother (plus squenix) seemed to try to emulate it afterwards, often to the detriment of their games and the industry as a whole. An "important thing" that really only hurts the industry isn't something I want to celebrate (see also: starcraft).

It's not really fair to blame a commercial success for spawning imitators, that's what commercial successes do. It popularized the JRPG in the west in a big way it hadn't before and kind pioneered pushing big production values even if the tech wasn't really up to it. It wasn't my favorite game either, but it's really not something to dismissed.

The effects were pretty far-reaching. In the long view if not for FF7 we probably wouldn't have gotten things like Persona 3/4, Front Mission 3/4 or even stuff like the latter Dragon Quest games over here.

*shrug*

I dislike blatant imitations and copies enough that it materially effects my opinion of the original at times. May not be rational, but it does feel like it devalues the entire subject.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I liked FF7. But in terms of personal effect of an RPG series on me, the Lufia and Chrono series' were much more important.

Sure, I am trying to point out that FF7 was not just a personally important game to me and many others but an important moment is video game history. For good and for ill:

Spoiler:

What does it mean that one of the most famous, shocking, emotionally impactful scenes in all video games is a woman being stabbed to death?

Probably because most of the other games did as well.

Manchu,

Thanks. FFIV and FFVI were so critical to me when I grew up. My experience with FF7 turned me away from the series. Not jus the tech issues, but the gameplay. The stupid mini games that If you were bad would punish you in game; the active party shrinking to three; the jerk protagonist (versus Cecil and Terra); and the character abilities felt less distinct. I'd watched my friends play later ones, but I could never get into them again after seven. It felt like a step down.

Melissa,

While Total Annihilation was good, why did you not like Starcraft? My major issue was that in the craft series attacks never missed. That is one of the reasons why I liked Command & Conquer better.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Manchu,

Thanks. FFIV and FFVI were so critical to me when I grew up. My experience with FF7 turned me away from the series. Not jus the tech issues, but the gameplay. The stupid mini games that If you were bad would punish you in game; the active party shrinking to three; the jerk protagonist (versus Cecil and Terra); and the character abilities felt less distinct. I'd watched my friends play later ones, but I could never get into them again after seven. It felt like a step down.

Melissa,

While Total Annihilation was good, why did you not like Starcraft? My major issue was that in the craft series attacks never missed. That is one of the reasons why I liked Command & Conquer better.

Warcraft 3 they had a miss system. You could avoid spells etc. Evasion was a thing.

Oh. Barret and Yuffie still anger me. That ninja needed to die after stealing my stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warcraft 3 was later than Command and Conquer.

I know what you mean. I was super excited to get FF8 but it totally disappointed me. In comparison to the cosmo-psychic epic of FF7, FF8 felt like a teenage soap opera. I did not play FF again until 12.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Oh. Barret and Yuffie still anger me. That ninja needed to die after stealing my stuff.

Well it is possible to go through the game without recruiting Yuffie. Or going to Wutai. Though you miss out some good stuff if you don't visit.

And at least FF7 had a black person. Even if he was one of only around 4 or 5 in the whole FF7 world and was basically Mr T with a machine gun arm

Lets be honest. There's only 1 person in FFVII who really matters;

Back on topic, Terra and Celes were awesome female characters. I loved them both.

So were Tifa and Aeris in their own way, although it is a shame that they are often marginalized because they don't meet the current standard of 'empowered female character.' I fear that standard could eventually become as generic as the current White Male Protagonist as soon as publishers figure out the marketing dynamics.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
Oh. Barret and Yuffie still anger me. That ninja needed to die after stealing my stuff.

Well it is possible to go through the game without recruiting Yuffie. Or going to Wutai. Though you miss out some good stuff if you don't visit.

And at least FF7 had a black person. Even if he was one of only around 4 or 5 in the whole FF7 world and was basically Mr T with a machine gun arm

I don't remember Mr. T constantly pounding on is chest like a Gorilla. If that is what the designer thought black people were like it would be have been better not to attempt it.

 Manchu wrote:
So were Tifa and Aeris in their own way, although it is a shame that they are often marginalized because they don't meet the current standard of 'empowered female character.' I fear that standard could eventually become as generic as the current White Male Protagonist as soon as publishers figure out the marketing dynamics.

Aeris was pretty empowered. So was Tifa in her own way. I mean Aeris goes off on her own to beat Sephiroth in her own way (and succeeds in what she was attempting to do) and Tifa takes control of the party during a section of disc 2 and is instrumental in Cloud bringing Cloud back to himself in the Lifestream.

Also Tifa breaks the whole "female characters are ranged/spellcasters" trope by being a straight up fist fighter, which is good.

The last few pages make me really glad I don't play JRPGs.

 Manchu wrote:
FF8 felt like a teenage soap opera. I did not play FF again until 12.

I did but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. They seemed to do a good job of capturing the sense of alienation, problems with identity and irrational thought patterns teenagers have. Though maybe it was just because I was a teenager at the time.

It's kind of a shame to skip 9. 9 was probably one of the better entries in the series. Heck I think it was probably the best the series has even been in terms of visual style, tone and music. It competes with FF12 for the best world-building.

Gah. Now that you bring FF12. It frustrates me so. It did so much so very very well, and just a few things horribly that kind of held the whole thing back. Like (back to the original subject of thread), Fran is kind of a cool character with awesome voice, why-oh-why did she have to be a Lingerie-bunny girl with those weird feet built only to fit in heels? They're actually doing kind of this cool thing where Ashe is the main thrust of the story and the character we control is just kind of this 3rd-party observer of the whole thing, but again with the character designs grah.


We're gonna build this cool world, but leave parts of it really under explored. Why was there not more information on Venat and Cid, even in side-quests or supplemental material? Why do we just get this tiny taste of the infighting and politics with the judges and the empire and the would've been so arghhh!!!!!!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So were Tifa and Aeris in their own way, although it is a shame that they are often marginalized because they don't meet the current standard of 'empowered female character.' I fear that standard could eventually become as generic as the current White Male Protagonist as soon as publishers figure out the marketing dynamics.

Aeris was pretty empowered. So was Tifa in her own way. I mean Aeris goes off on her own to beat Sephiroth in her own way (and succeeds in what she was attempting to do) and Tifa takes control of the party during a section of disc 2 and is instrumental in Cloud bringing Cloud back to himself in the Lifestream.

Also Tifa breaks the whole "female characters are ranged/spellcasters" trope by being a straight up fist fighter, which is good.

Really?



I thought Faris did.

So how on the whole do we think FF has done with their Female characters? And what could other games learn from them?

 AdeptSister wrote:
So how on the whole do we think FF has done with their Female characters? And what could other games learn from them?

Well for one thing you can have deep and interesting characters that can be both genders. Two you can have nonsexualized heroes.

But then later on in the series that becomes untrue with things like....

Final fantasy 13 and onwards.

And sad to say, Tifa's fight in Advent Children was the best one in the movie. I like overthetopness, but that movie had way too much Dynasty Warriors in it for its own good.

Granted, I'm not really sure I'd call Tifa the ideal of empowered. She spends a lot of that game with her story revolving around a man (cloud). Granted the predevelopment material for her was even worse (remember my complaints about secretaries?). I kind of see Tifa in the same terms as Lara Croft at this point. Important because she was appealing and cool in a time where female characters were even more limited than now, but she's not really the end goal I think anyone was looking for. Aries/Aerith (whatever the 'real' name is) I think set a more interesting standard. She was strong, her story wasn't strictly revolving around a man's in the same way as Tifa's, and unlike tomboy Tifa, Aries was very feminine. Tomboy Action girls are fairly common, but they always end up with a sort of 'less feminine' nature about them. Aries managed to be in the action, even at its heart, while not being a tomboy action girl.

I think Lightning from FF13 is a great character. [Full stop.]

I don't think Tifa really fits into a tomboy action girl trope. Yuffie fits more into that, what with her loud character, short hair etc.

Tifa is a compassionate, caring character. I'd argue that whilst her story is centred around Cloud, for a lot of that story she is actually protecting him, maybe not physically but mentally. She's the only person who actually knew Cloud before the start of the game and when it comes down to it, she'd the only one who could save him when he was in the Lifestream, at a time when he himself was helpless.