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2014/09/09 13:50:06
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Manchu wrote: How did you manage to think you were the only one who hated FF13? Whenever the game is mentioned (as here) people come out of the woodwork just to mention how much they hate it.
I don't know. Probably because among a few of my friends it was popular, and among my colleagues they said it was a fantastic game.
So maybe thats why?
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/09 14:23:23
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Anyway kind of notice we're getting really off topic here, for like six pages... maybe this needs a lock or a redirect back to the topic somehow? Id on't know...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/09 14:43:43
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Probably because among a few of my friends it was popular, and among my colleagues they said it was a fantastic game.
Strange that you have apparently never seen the game discussed online. Here on Dakka (but by no means only here) it is a go-to example of a terrible game, the words "hallway" and "corridor" being used almost every single time the game is mentioned. It is a pity the game gets such a bad rap because Lightning is an awesome character, although she does fall back on punching people way too often. Maybe it's because she kind of personifies a certain amount of fan frustration with the FF series to date.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/09 15:34:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Anyway kind of notice we're getting really off topic here, for like six pages... maybe this needs a lock or a redirect back to the topic somehow? Id on't know...
Well, the mods seem pretty okay with the off-topic. Since Machu has been greatly contributing to it, I mean .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/09 15:36:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I liked Lightning, Just wish she had punched Hope in the face as well as Snow.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/09 15:48:46
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Shhh. Don't say that. People might think you got the mod that lets you kill the children in Skyrim just so you could pile their corpses in the middle of Whiterun alongside all the Sweet Rolls you stole
Asherian Command wrote: Well are talking about misrepresentation of female characters in games, and final fantasy 13 is a great example of what not to do.
Great. Now if us non-JRPG players could have any information about what this is about, we would be able to take part on the conversation, maybe .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/09 15:59:11
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Well are talking about misrepresentation of female characters in games, and final fantasy 13 is a great example of what not to do.
Great. Now if us non-JRPG players could have any information about what this is about, we would be able to take part on the conversation, maybe .
Oversexualized characters that were extremely degrading to the entire female species.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/09 16:00:09
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/09 16:01:52
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Discussing the FF series is far from OT as it has contributed many interesting female characters. What makes characters, male or female, interesting is also not OT. I'll thank the lot of you to leave the moderation up to the moderators.
Asherian Command wrote: Well are talking about misrepresentation of female characters in games, and final fantasy 13 is a great example of what not to do.
Manchu wrote: Discussing the FF series is far from OT as it has contributed many interesting female characters. What makes characters, male or female, interesting is also not OT. I'll thank the lot of you to leave the moderation up to the moderators.
Asherian Command wrote: Well are talking about misrepresentation of female characters in games, and final fantasy 13 is a great example of what not to do.
What makes you say that?
Compare final fantasy 1-6 with all the female characters, and compare them to final 13.
Final 13 most of the characters mostly female all wear interesting clothing styles. Its more revealing and less useful to combat.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/09 16:05:34
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Oversexualized characters that were extremely degrading to the entire female species.
Which FF13 characters were oversexualized? What do you mean by "oversexualized"? What is the "female species"? What is your actual argument? (Please don't simply post a couple of pictures and assume your POV is obvious or that doing so proves your point.)
Asherian Command wrote: Oversexualized characters that were extremely degrading to the entire female species.
Which FF13 characters were oversexualized? What do you mean by "oversexualized"? What is the "female species"? What is your actual argument? (Please don't simply post a couple of pictures and assume your POV is obvious or that doing so proves your point.)
More of that the guys have more clothing than the girls do.
That is my argument. Basically I think they don't really condone what happens.
Their characteristics may be strong, but is there a reason for them to be cladded such?
Is there any reason for them to be dressed like that?
I mean if it makes sense.
IF they actually have a reason for it then, I will back off my argument.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 16:10:00
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/09 16:11:52
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Look at that pic of the cast from Final Fantasy XII. Now look at the one for XIII. Now back at XII. Back to XIII. XII again. Now look at me. Now look at Vaan and how whoever designed her character didn't put a bra on her
The character designs for 13 are pretty damn swell. Looking them over again, it's a wonderful little set of designs, not just because they look cool but because they look like things real human beings might actually wear. WTF is with Ashe's outfit up there, seriously XD It's like someone just drew up Fran and Ashe to show as much skin as possible and feth how ridiculous they look.
Asherian Command wrote: Final 13 most of the characters mostly female all wear interesting clothing styles. Its more revealing and less useful to combat.
FF-style clothing across the decades has never been ... realistically suited to combat. Or doing anything, for that matter. Like their hair, the clothing FF characters (male and female) wear is 100% about style. As to whether the FF13 ladies wear more revealing clothing -- do you mean because you can see more of the skin on their shoulders and arms? I guess I don't equate bare arms with sexualization.
I will say, however, that the female characters in FF13 tend to be more emotionally strong and confident than the male characters, who are more repressed and convoluted. Perhaps the visual design reflects this.
LordofHats wrote: Look at that pic of the cast from Final Fantasy XII. Now look at the one for XIII. Now back at XII. Back to XIII. XII again. Now look at me. Now look at Vaan and how whoever designed her character didn't put a bra on her
The character designs for 13 are pretty damn swell. Looking them over again, it's a wonderful little set of designs, not just because they look cool but because they look like things real human beings might actually wear. WTF is with Ashe's outfit up there, seriously XD It's like someone just drew up Fran and Ashe to show as much skin as possible and feth how ridiculous they look.
FF-style clothing across the decades has never been ... realistically suited to combat. Or doing anything, for that matter. Like their hair, the clothing FF characters (male and female) wear is 100% about style. As to whether the FF13 ladies wear more revealing clothing -- do you mean because you can see more of the skin on their shoulders and arms? I guess I don't equate bare arms with sexualization.
I will say, however, that the female characters in FF13 tend to be more emotionally strong and confident than the male characters, who are more repressed and convoluted. Perhaps the visual design reflects this.
I agree with all these statements. I will back off the argument though. I was just raising this argument.
I don't actually believe in that argument at all. (So no one else will EVER Can use that argument)
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/09 16:19:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: Look at that pic of the cast from Final Fantasy XII. Now look at the one for XIII. Now back at XII. Back to XIII. XII again. Now look at me. Now look at Vaan and how whoever designed her character didn't put a bra on her
Vaan is a dude...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 16:21:59
What I have
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~1660
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Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/09/09 16:20:07
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
With the FF series, we can actually talk about what characters think, say, and do rather than just how they dress.
Lightning for example built a new identity when her parents died, naming herself Lightning. She is more complex than just her sisters guardian. She recognizes that lightning cannot protect but can only destroy. She also says that lightning burns bright but fades fast. I mean, just in those few lines of thoughtful, reflective monologue we get a lot of complex characterization.
Manchu wrote: With the FF series, we can actually talk about what characters think, say, and do rather than just how they dress.
Lightning for example built a new identity when her parents died, naming herself Lightning. She is more complex than just her sisters guardian. She recognizes that lightning cannot protect but can only destroy. She also says that lightning burns bright but fades fast. I mean, just in those few lines of thoughtful, reflective monologue we get a lot of complex characterization.
Well the main bit I think is that a character can still be complex. No matter what they are wearing. They can be scantly cl added, but that does not destroy the message for the character or make the character worse.
Its just clothing.
See I believe that you can dress anyone. Any bloody way,and you could still pull of a fantastic character. Because clothing does not make the character.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/09 16:27:30
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Clothing is a big part of character design, especially in games where the character's appearance does not change very much throughout (as in the FF series, where getting new kinds of armor doesn't affect what the character looks like). But it is not solely determinative and I think it matters less to the extent that there is more characterization in terms of story and dialogue.
LordofHats wrote: Look at that pic of the cast from Final Fantasy XII. Now look at the one for XIII. Now back at XII. Back to XIII. XII again. Now look at me. Now look at Vaan and how whoever designed her character didn't put a bra on her
Vaan is a dude...
If you say so
I'm joking obviously. I remember when that game was coming out and I saw Vaan, Ashe, and Fran and was just like "omg they look so ridiculous." I've liked the art work for the final fantasy series a lot (I had one of the old art books). X had some wonderfully amazing character designs, but XII was just wtf. Only character I really liked the look of in XII is Penelo.
With the FF series, we can actually talk about what characters think, say, and do rather than just how they dress.
Asherian Command wrote: [Well the main bit I think is that a character can still be complex. No matter what they are wearing. They can be scantly cl added, but that does not destroy the message for the character or make the character worse.
Its just clothing.
See I believe that you can dress anyone. Any bloody way,and you could still pull of a fantastic character. Because clothing does not make the character.
So, are you saying that these characters do not choose the way they are dressing, or that their choice of clothing is not giving ideas about their personality? For instance, representing a tender and compassionate character in some nazi-like uniform would not shock you as a bad design decision (unless it is actually a plot device)?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/09 16:31:51
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Manchu wrote: Clothing is a big part of character design, especially in games where the character's appearance does not change very much throughout (as in the FF series, where getting new kinds of armor doesn't affect what the character looks like). But it is not solely determinative and I think it matters less to the extent that there is more characterization in terms of story and dialogue.
Well I think actions, make the character.
Not the clothing.
A simple reaction or emotion determine and make the character.
In animation we learned that the design really doesn't matter, you can make it a freaking lamp
That is a character. That has personality and emotion.
Asherian Command wrote: [Well the main bit I think is that a character can still be complex. No matter what they are wearing. They can be scantly cl added, but that does not destroy the message for the character or make the character worse.
Its just clothing.
See I believe that you can dress anyone. Any bloody way,and you could still pull of a fantastic character. Because clothing does not make the character.
So, are you saying that these characters do not choose the way they are dressing, or that their choice of clothing is not giving ideas about their personality? For instance, representing a tender and compassionate character in some nazi-like uniform would not shock you as a bad design decision (unless it is actually a plot device)?
Sometimes it could be, but sometimes it could be the time and place, it shows us what the world is like.
It could show it, but very few games ever go that route. Some do, but they are usually done for very good reasons.
As an example Spec Ops: The Line. It tells us a story. It gives us insight into the character, and possibly a look at the character himself. See how he degrades?
Throughout the game his choice of clothing and how his gear slowly degrades and become more damaged, might be an insight into his degrading personality and mind.
That he is one step closer to the brink of destruction.
It is the goal of the designer to use all the tools available to them to tell a story.
That is the first thing we learn in animation, and in Story-line structuring.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 16:40:12
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/09 16:39:17
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It sounds like you are arguing against yourself. I wonder if you believe either line of reasoning or if you are just baiting the thread as you were about clothing in FF13.
.
~4100
~1660
