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I also remember that Arkham got some controversy about how gendered and sexualized the enemies taunts against her were. I know they are thugs, but it was a level of icky that you never got while playing as batman.

It's like the developer's did not notice it during play testing.

Yeah, that really struck me as tasteless.

Seriously I'm playing a superhero game for the cathartic beat-the-gak-out-of-people feeling, I don't want to get rape threats directed at the character I'm playing as :/

 Asherian Command wrote:
But it might be about the character coming out and displaying her sexuality for the world to see.

I am doing a burglary. I want to display my sexuality for the world to see. At the same time. Also known as “too stupid to live”.
If you are committing a burglary, you do not want anyone to see you, let alone your sexuality.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
But it might be about the character coming out and displaying her sexuality for the world to see.

I am doing a burglary. I want to display my sexuality for the world to see. At the same time. Also known as “too stupid to live”.
If you are committing a burglary, you do not want anyone to see you, let alone your sexuality.

Hahaha true. But lets face it that is a universal problem currently.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't think I would blame Arkham Asylum for the sexualization of catwoman, I'd blame DC

That kind of feels like passing the buck. I mean if they really cared the studio leadership could have taken a position anywhere from "Well, we'll change the design" to "We'll not include to Catwoman" to "If DC won't let us do those things, we'll not make a batman game. In the grand scheme things one character design is kind of minor problem. I'm just trying to point out that the game's creators are responsible for the content as the original IP owners

 AdeptSister wrote:
I also remember that Arkham got some controversy about how gendered and sexualized the enemies taunts against her were. I know they are thugs, but it was a level of icky that you never got while playing as batman.

It's like the developer's did not notice it during play testing.

It's not that the developer's didn't notice, the developers put it in their game intentionally. You don't "oops" your way into recording the voice clips and setting the triggers for them. Multiple members of the team went "Yes. This is a good idea, we should be doing this. Let's do this, we're doing this. We did this, it works".

It's possible that nobody in testing was bothered by it, didn't speak up or nobody upstairs listened we can't say.

At minimum (checking the credits), women were included in the QA process and woman was even a QA lead. So at least the problem isn't stemming from exclusion. The cynic in me would be at least one of them probably was bothered by it but didn't speak up because that's kind of bad for your career but like I said, we can't know.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
But it might be about the character coming out and displaying her sexuality for the world to see.

I am doing a burglary. I want to display my sexuality for the world to see. At the same time. Also known as “too stupid to live”.
If you are committing a burglary, you do not want anyone to see you, let alone your sexuality.

It helped in batman returns, when she does get's seen, the guards are way to distracted by her sexuality, so she clobbers them and escapes.

It's also how she got batman to feel for her and it affected his judgement as well.

It's like the old joke, a woman robs a bank naked and gets away with it because no one can describe her face.

Julie Newmar was also the best catwoman btw.

sirlynchmob wrote:
It helped in batman returns, when she does get's seen, the guards are way to distracted by her sexuality, so she clobbers them and escapes.

That is possibly the most stupid trope/excuse for skimpy design I have ever read and I hope it dies forever.
(Just to clarify, I am not saying that you are stupid, I am saying the game is stupid for using it)
I remember reading it in a Warmachine official fiction, and it quite cheapened my views of the setting.

sirlynchmob wrote:
It's also how she got batman to feel for her and it affected his judgement as well.

I do not think that is how it works. I am pretty sure it is not how it would work with me. Raising sexual arousal and raising affection are really not the same.

 Chongara wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I don't think I would blame Arkham Asylum for the sexualization of catwoman, I'd blame DC

That kind of feels like passing the buck. I mean if they really cared the studio leadership could have taken a position anywhere from "Well, we'll change the design" to "We'll not include to Catwoman" to "If DC won't let us do those things, we'll not make a batman game.: In the grand scheme things one character design is kind of minor problem. I'm just trying to point out that the game's creators are responsible for the content as the original IP owners.

I agree. Remember that they changed Tim Drake's design so that he has a shaved head and did MMA as a hobby. They also hyped up the sexualization of Harliquin. They made these choices.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I remember reading it in a Warmachine official fiction, and it quite cheapened my views of

Ugh. On the upside, I'm willing to be that wasn't something Seacat had input on. I hope not anyway. I really like liking that guy.

I like the Iron Kingdoms as a setting particularly as Seacat envisions it, but there are definitely some folks at the company that are anywhere from in denial (looking at you Simon) to just downright unapologetic about the sexist aspects of their design choices.

It is apparently from Edward Bolme.

Every female warcaster from Cryx seem to share that mentality from the models.
And it is almost the same for the other draconic faction. Notice that fantastic escher-girl b&b pose:

Do draconic corruption allow your torso to twist that much?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
But it might be about the character coming out and displaying her sexuality for the world to see.

I am doing a burglary. I want to display my sexuality for the world to see. At the same time. Also known as “too stupid to live”.
If you are committing a burglary, you do not want anyone to see you, let alone your sexuality.

This is Catwoman we are talking about. She is cocky and extroverted enough to try to prove you wrong...
And she's right

Trying to apply logic to a comic setting is like trying to apply logic to Warhammer 40k...it's bad for your health.

What about trying to apply logic to why characters in a fictional setting were designed the way they are by some real-world persons and what message these designs carry over to other real-world persons reading about the character ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
What about trying to apply logic to why characters in a fictional setting were designed the way they are by some real-world persons and what message these designs carry over to other real-world persons reading about the character ?

Hmm. Interesting, but I don't think it demeans the character at all. I mean here look is not as bad as 'certain' characters in comics are. Catwoman is not as bad as harley's design in the Arkham Games or the designs of certain women in comic books.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is apparently from Edward Bolme.

Every female warcaster from Cryx seem to share that mentality from the models.
And it is almost the same for the other draconic faction. Notice that fantastic escher-girl b&b pose:
Do draconic corruption allow your torso to twist that much?

Preachin' to the choir here. PP is really good when it comes to their world building and including women in the world, but almost all of their art & character design have issues of varying degrees. It frustrates me so. *sigh*. That's just how things be I suppose.

 Chongara wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is apparently from Edward Bolme.

Every female warcaster from Cryx seem to share that mentality from the models.
And it is almost the same for the other draconic faction. Notice that fantastic escher-girl b&b pose:
Do draconic corruption allow your torso to twist that much?

Preachin' to the choir here. PP is really good when it comes to their world building and including women in the world, but almost all of their art & character design have issues of varying degrees. It frustrates me so. *sigh*. That's just how things be I suppose.

Baby steps mate. Baby steps

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
What about trying to apply logic to why characters in a fictional setting were designed the way they are by some real-world persons and what message these designs carry over to other real-world persons reading about the character ?

It's also entirely possible there is no message to carry over. It's a fictional story, often times with no real world implications or messages.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Interesting, but I don't think it demeans the character at all.

It is a burglar, that wants to display her sexuality to the whole world while doing a burglary. I am pretty sure just by this pitch, anyone and their dog could guess the gender of the burglar and the gender of the intended audience .

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean here look is not as bad as 'certain' characters in comics are.

If we are going to base our judgments on the worst examples from an industry that is already pretty bad with their average, it is not going to be very conclusive, is it?

sirlynchmob wrote:
It's also entirely possible there is no message to carry over.

No intended messages, yes, I can imagine.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Interesting, but I don't think it demeans the character at all.

It is a burglar, that wants to display her sexuality to the whole world while doing a burglary. I am pretty sure just by this pitch, anyone and their dog could guess the gender of the burglar and the gender of the intended audience .

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean here look is not as bad as 'certain' characters in comics are.

If we are going to base our judgments on the worst examples from an industry that is already pretty bad with their average, it is not going to be very conclusive, is it?

sirlynchmob wrote:
It's also entirely possible there is no message to carry over.

No intended messages, yes, I can imagine.

She's a comic book hero. She is a power fantasy for women. She kicks ass. I know tons of girls that say catwoman is one of their favorite villains. In fact I could get all of them to confirm that.

Just because you have a problem with the character, does not mean everyone else does.

She is not as scandalist as you make her out to be.

sirlynchmob wrote:
It's a fictional story, often times with no real world implications or messages.

And Helter Skelter is just a song.

But there are some people out there who will look for a message or implication in anything. Probably shouldn't make it easier for them than it has to be

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
It's a fictional story, often times with no real world implications or messages.

And Helter Skelter is just a song.

But there are some people out there who will look for a message or implication in anything. Probably shouldn't make it easier for them than it has to be

Sometimes people see metaphors. Sometimes there is not.

Like I remember having a discussion with a teacher about this color a color on a wine glass in one of the stories I was reading. It was silver. The teacher exclaimed that it meant something more than just it was silver, and represented the fame and fortune and whatever she was talking about. I just raised my hand and said, "Silver just means they are rich, because I mean, its silver, it doesn't mean there is an implication that it means more than its a wine glass." I then pointed to the fact that there are other symbols, that she down right ignored.

There are certain symbols that happen in the game, but it does not imply that all mechanics are metaphor, that not all things are a metaphor.

Sexy distraction is a trope I don't know if I have seen done right. It's another one of the sexy outfit excuses. If you were really trying to dress in a way to distract people, what would you do? My idea tassels, bright colors. There are weapons that were made to be distracting and what they did was put brightly colored strings and tassels on them to distract the eye by movement.

Another thought is maybe catwoman has a fetish. Like she gets exhibitionist thrill from sneaking around in sexy clothes. It's just a thought though. If it was an aspect of her character, you would want it to be addressed and talked about.

Which makes it late by what, 60 years or so if it was an aspect of her character?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Sometimes people see metaphors. Sometimes there is not.

A metaphor and an unintended message are two very different things!

nomotog wrote:
Another thought is maybe catwoman has a fetish. Like she gets exhibitionist thrill from sneaking around in sexy clothes.

Not exhibitionist if her thrill is not being seen, I guess.

The Male Marines (see my sig) are master of the use of sexy costume to distract their opponent. I am sure they have whole training courses on stretching their torso so that their nipples ends up just above their asses too!

 Slarg232 wrote:
Which makes it late by what, 60 years or so if it was an aspect of her character?

Yep. It's not a part of her character. She isn't sexy for herself. She is mostly sexy for the reader.

nomotog wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Which makes it late by what, 60 years or so if it was an aspect of her character?

Yep. It's not a part of her character. She isn't sexy for herself. She is mostly sexy for the reader.

Basically.

I mean its not a metaphor for her or a combination of something else. Its just to catch readers eye.

Its why they have it on characters to be scantly clad or near perfect, its because its a fantasy character, its who we want to be.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Its why they have it on characters to be scantly clad or near perfect, its because its a fantasy character, its who we want to be.

Really, here it is who we (are supposed to) want to gaze at, rather than who we want to be, mostly.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Its why they have it on characters to be scantly clad or near perfect, its because its a fantasy character, its who we want to be.

Really, here it is who we (are supposed to) want to gaze at, rather than who we want to be, mostly.

I disagree. See they are perfect in every sense in physical form. I mean why do people read about Conan the barbarian or Superman? Because at some level we want to be them

We want to be those people, because they have abilities beyond us. At some primal level we want to be like them, So we compare ourselves to them and draw our conclusions.

Most readers do not pull out and spank to catwoman. Most read her as a character, and secretly want to live her life and have her body. In essence to be her.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Its why they have it on characters to be scantly clad or near perfect, its because its a fantasy character, its who we want to be.

Really, here it is who we (are supposed to) want to gaze at, rather than who we want to be, mostly.

I disagree. See they are perfect in every sense in physical form. I mean why do people read about Conan the barbarian or Superman? Because at some level we want to be them

We want to be those people, because they have abilities beyond us. At some primal level we want to be like them, So we compare ourselves to them and draw our conclusions.

Most readers do not pull out and spank to catwoman. Most read her as a character, and secretly want to live her life and have her body. In essence to be her.

Yes No Maybe. There is no way you can predict how someone will take a bit of media and people have different outlooks. (I once read a manga that I regarded as a trashy guilty pleasure only to find a lot of people took it as a inspiring story.) It seems clear that catwoman was made to be ogled (It's a tricky thing to define I'll admit too.)... On the other hand, ya I might like to be catwoman. That would be fun.

nomotog wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Its why they have it on characters to be scantly clad or near perfect, its because its a fantasy character, its who we want to be.

Really, here it is who we (are supposed to) want to gaze at, rather than who we want to be, mostly.

I disagree. See they are perfect in every sense in physical form. I mean why do people read about Conan the barbarian or Superman? Because at some level we want to be them

We want to be those people, because they have abilities beyond us. At some primal level we want to be like them, So we compare ourselves to them and draw our conclusions.

Most readers do not pull out and spank to catwoman. Most read her as a character, and secretly want to live her life and have her body. In essence to be her.

Yes No Maybe. There is no way you can predict how someone will take a bit of media and people have different outlooks. (I once read a manga that I regarded as a trashy guilty pleasure only to find a lot of people took it as a inspiring story.) It seems clear that catwoman was made to be ogled (It's a tricky thing to define I'll admit too.)... On the other hand, ya I might like to be catwoman. That would be fun.

That often happens.

People take different experiences. And see something else.

I don't really see clothing as something that determines the experience. A character is determined by what they do, and how they act, If they wear badass armor that is great, but, it only tells me somethings about their personality not the whole story.

Emotion and actions create a character. Not the armor or clothing of someone make the character. Otherwise they are just background.

 Asherian Command wrote:


That often happens.

People take different experiences. And see something else.

I don't really see clothing as something that determines the experience. A character is determined by what they do, and how they act, If they wear badass armor that is great, but, it only tells me somethings about their personality not the whole story.

Emotion and actions create a character. Not the armor or clothing of someone make the character. Otherwise they are just background.

I think you are undervaluing aesthetics as they relate to defining a character. What a character wears isn't background. It's more like foreground you know because it's one of the first things people notice. It is a little like a inverse of the classic lesions. Judge a book by their cover because that is where the name is. The style of a character isn't the only thing about a character, but it's the first thing people see and tells you a lot about them.

This actually relates back to games. Saints row 2 is a good example. That game has crazy customization, but it's all visual. The game doesn't let you change the actions or emotions of your character, but you can make some radically different characters by just changing the visual aesthetics. It's something I wish more games would copy. Games have a really easy time changing aesthetics. Changing story or actions is really hard comparatively.