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2014/09/11 23:56:21
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I personally find it more interesting how selective people are with that silly little line of discussion. Chun Li kicks Ken into the ground and everyone says "Awesome!" Cause in a fighting game, no one cares if a woman is one of the strongest characters in the game.
Then someone says "why are women always dex/int when men are always str/con" and they say "sexual dimorphism!" as if that old cliche is somehow worth justifying let alone justified by that phrase in the first place. Immediately followed by "women aren't as strong as men" and I just look back at Chun Li and think she's about to drop kick murphy someone.
On interwebs, you so silly
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 23:59:31
LordofHats wrote: I personally find it more interesting how selective people are with that silly little line of discussion. Chun Li kicks Ken into the ground and everyone says "Awesome!" Cause in a fighting game, no one cares if a woman is one of the strongest characters in the game.
Then someone says "why are women always dex/int when men are always str/con" and they say "sexual dimorphism!" as if that old cliche is somehow worth justifying let alone justified by that phrase in the first place. Immediately followed by "women aren't as strong as men" and I just look back and Chun Li and think she's about to drop kick murphy someone.
On interwebs, you so silly
Its funny because Dex and intell are usually the strongest stats. Str/con just means they can take more hits.
Critical damage and being able to hit is determined usually by dex and intel.
Dex also determines dodge.
Intel usually about magical knowledge or knowledge in general.
That means that the women are smarter and faster. While the men are beat sticks.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/11 23:59:56
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Mind you, usually the only fighting games I like are the ones with create-a-character modes (such as certain Soul Calibur games, though some of the series more than the rest), or the more simplistic ones like the DBZ series of fighting games. I hate memorizing a huge list of awkward-to-do combos, like many games make you do :/
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 00:00:44
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/12 00:02:26
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Mind you, usually the only fighting games I like are the ones with create-a-character modes (such as certain Soul Calibur games, though some of the series more than the rest), or the more simplistic ones like the DBZ series of fighting games. I hate memorizing a huge list of awkward-to-do combos, like many games make you do :/
I personally do not like fighting games because of the very competitive scene they promote. Loot droppers are my fancy.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/12 00:06:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
(Cause when can a thread have too much Team Four Star? The answer is NEVER).
Sure, fighting games more than many others practically sell themselves on women in really skimpy outfits (oh Christie...). Is Nina Williams pretty much sold with sex appeal? Yeah, but at least she kicks ass while she does it
I love the original Soul Calibur. Competitive scene? I was playing with my brother and my friends!
Back then Ivy's alt costume was awesome. From what I got, she never got it back :(.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/12 00:20:17
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I love the original Soul Calibur. Competitive scene? I was playing with my brother and my friends!
Back then Ivy's alt costume was awesome. From what I got, she never got it back :(.
IT is very competitive, The tournaments that is. Its not something I enjoy playing or consider very leisure.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/12 00:29:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Tournaments can be really unpleasant places, and unfortunately, some people get offended by the idea that they could be less unpleasant.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/12 02:20:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Manchu wrote: Aside from the fact that you have never seen it before, what makes it weird? More to the point, can you give an objection to my definition other than posting pictures of men you find erotic?
Yes. Language is made to communicate, and if you do use a definition that is different from the definition everybody else uses, it is not going to help communication.
You seem to be making an assumption about the definition of sexualization instead of offering a definition or even an argument against mine. Anyway, I don't see how my definition -- emphasizing sexual characteristics -- is different from the usual meaning of the term.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: If your pinup is an image of a car, an apple, or any inanimate object rather than a character, you are doing it wrong.
Needs a source, because I actually do know quite a lot about biologically and that makes no sense. Men have stronger upper bodies thanks to evolutionary biology, being the only gender that can have children doesn't automatically mean women can take more pain though. I mean, the parts of the body that deal with the pain perhaps, but they evolve to deal with it. The idea that "men couldnt take the pain" is an old wives tale.
gak, my mate lives next to a woman with 11 kids, if it hurt that fething much wouldn't she have quit after the first one?
Basically I reckon its down to the individual, so the world is full of tough men, and weak men, and tough women, and weak women, and they all sit around and discuss why none of them are as tough as me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 04:25:50
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2014/09/12 04:34:44
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Needs a source, because I actually do know quite a lot about biologically and that makes no sense. Men have stronger upper bodies thanks to evolutionary biology, being the only gender that can have children doesn't automatically mean women can take more pain though. I mean, the parts of the body that deal with the pain perhaps, but they evolve to deal with it. The idea that "men couldnt take the pain" is an old wives tale.
gak, my mate lives next to a woman with 11 kids, if it hurt that fething much wouldn't she have quit after the first one?
Basically I reckon its down to the individual, so the world is full of tough men, and weak men, and tough women, and weak women, and they all sit around and discuss why none of them are as tough as me.
Women are actually stronger than men pound for pound of muscle, just men have more pounds of muscle and better muscle distribution for balance for moving and shifting stuff. Womens' muscle fibre is actually more dense. Interesting fact. I forgot where I heard it.
Women take pain in a childbearing sense due to afterbirth chemicals released that cause them to remember the birthing pain as being of a lower intensity than it actually was. In the case of my grandmother she didn't seem to get these chemicals and refused to have another one due to the pain.
I'd actually say that womens physiology having deeper blood flow may mean the nerves are slightly lower maybe meaning that yes they are more resistant to pain. That's pure conjecture though.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
2014/09/12 04:37:20
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Needs a source, because I actually do know quite a lot about biologically and that makes no sense. Men have stronger upper bodies thanks to evolutionary biology, being the only gender that can have children doesn't automatically mean women can take more pain though. I mean, the parts of the body that deal with the pain perhaps, but they evolve to deal with it. The idea that "men couldnt take the pain" is an old wives tale.
gak, my mate lives next to a woman with 11 kids, if it hurt that fething much wouldn't she have quit after the first one?
Basically I reckon its down to the individual, so the world is full of tough men, and weak men, and tough women, and weak women, and they all sit around and discuss why none of them are as tough as me.
Yeah, I'd like to see a really good, conclusive study that shows that women take pain "better" than men, and what that means.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 04:42:14
2014/09/12 04:43:22
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Needs a source, because I actually do know quite a lot about biologically and that makes no sense. Men have stronger upper bodies thanks to evolutionary biology, being the only gender that can have children doesn't automatically mean women can take more pain though. I mean, the parts of the body that deal with the pain perhaps, but they evolve to deal with it. The idea that "men couldnt take the pain" is an old wives tale.
gak, my mate lives next to a woman with 11 kids, if it hurt that fething much wouldn't she have quit after the first one?
Basically I reckon its down to the individual, so the world is full of tough men, and weak men, and tough women, and weak women, and they all sit around and discuss why none of them are as tough as me.
She doesn't have enough tattoos for my tastes, but any woman that can kick my ass in Starcraft and look that good in a bikini will get my vote.
And I dunno about pain (or how you'd even go about measuring that), but women definitely do have an edge over men in handling high g environments.
2014/09/12 04:45:43
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Women are actually stronger than men pound for pound of muscle, just men have more pounds of muscle and better muscle distribution for balance for moving and shifting stuff. Womens' muscle fibre is actually more dense. Interesting fact. I forgot where I heard it.
Maybe from a bloke in the pub?
Seriously if men and women are the same height and weight, the bloke is literally always stronger. Its a proven fact. Sexual dimorphism is a complex subject and many animals have stronger and more powerful females, for example gak loads of insects, birds, and the occasional mammal, but humans ain't one of them.
Its why the military has different standards for men and women. If what you were saying was true they would be identical, or made easier for men!
I suppose I'm a genuine feminist in that regard, In that I think they should do away with that outdated concept, and allow women to join the SEALs and SFODD too. I know for a fact that some women would be able to pass it, but they would earn their place and the respect of their peers. I definitely prefer it to the current system where you have plenty of female soldiers that are weak as piss because they lowered the bar so much. I mean, the USMC standards for men are fething easy, but for women they are laughable, my missus would eat the mans one for breakfast, let alone hanging off a bar and not actually going anywhere!
She doesn't have enough tattoos for my tastes, but any woman that can kick my ass in Starcraft and look that good in a bikini will get my vote.
Yeah I dunno, I just don't really care about "sexy" youtubers making videos like that, it seems almost infantile. Like, I long grew out of wanting girls to do everything I do. I don't feel the need to play warhammer with my wife, that's what my mates are for, same as I don't want to go shopping with her, I like to keep things separate and I think the whole "lusting after a partner that likes all my stuff" thing is just a hallmark to my teenage years.
If I want to see games, I want to see games, If I want to see women, Ill watch pornography. Its sort of like FHM in that regard, its like a gak happy medium in that its way worse than an actual book to read, and way worse than a jazz mag for lusting over.
Id rather read the back of a shampoo bottle.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 04:51:32
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2014/09/12 04:53:51
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Are far as pain tolerance goes men have it higher than women except during pregnancy as pregnant women build up chemicals that help them cope with the pain of childbirth.
2014/09/12 05:04:54
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
mattyrm wrote: Yeah I dunno, I just don't really care about "sexy" youtubers making videos like that, it seems almost infantile. Like, I long grew out of wanting girls to do everything I do. I don't feel the need to play warhammer with my wife, that's what my mates are for, same as I don't want to go shopping with her, I like to keep things separate and I think the whole "lusting after a partner that likes all my stuff" thing is just a hallmark to my teenage years.
If I want to see games, I want to see games, If I want to see women, Ill watch pornography. Its sort of like FHM in that regard, its like a gak happy medium in that its way worse than an actual book to read, and way worse than a jazz mag for lusting over.
Id rather read the back of a shampoo bottle.
Oh, she's a YouTuber?
And I think you're selling it a bit short, man. My wife games, and it can be a good time. She's not into nearly everything I am - no shooters, no strategy games, etc. - but she'll play the gak out of some MMOs, far more so than me. Shared interests can be good.
I don't really get the whole "Let's Play" phenomenon to begin with, but I suppose if I was going to watch one, I'd be more inclined to watch a cute, witty chick than anything else.
2014/09/12 06:41:30
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Women are actually stronger than men pound for pound of muscle, just men have more pounds of muscle and better muscle distribution for balance for moving and shifting stuff. Womens' muscle fibre is actually more dense. Interesting fact. I forgot where I heard it.
Maybe from a bloke in the pub?
Seriously if men and women are the same height and weight, the bloke is literally always stronger. Its a proven fact. Sexual dimorphism is a complex subject and many animals have stronger and more powerful females, for example gak loads of insects, birds, and the occasional mammal, but humans ain't one of them.
Its why the military has different standards for men and women. If what you were saying was true they would be identical, or made easier for men!
I suppose I'm a genuine feminist in that regard, In that I think they should do away with that outdated concept, and allow women to join the SEALs and SFODD too. I know for a fact that some women would be able to pass it, but they would earn their place and the respect of their peers. I definitely prefer it to the current system where you have plenty of female soldiers that are weak as piss because they lowered the bar so much. I mean, the USMC standards for men are fething easy, but for women they are laughable, my missus would eat the mans one for breakfast, let alone hanging off a bar and not actually going anywhere!
you kinda missed the 2nd part of the important line but that's ok as your probably on your 5th pint. Women are actually stronger than men pound for pound of muscle, just men have more pounds of muscle and better muscle distribution for balance for moving and shifting stuff. Womens' muscle fibre is actually more dense
I'm a feminist in that i think sport should consist of a first and second division and everyone competes on a similar footing. A good side effect of this is transgender people can compete with no problematic rules, and the pay for female athletes would be higher as they get a share of the advertising revenue, which less face it due to viewer numbers is woeful in female sport.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
2014/09/12 07:52:15
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Manchu wrote: You seem to be making an assumption about the definition of sexualization instead of offering a definition or even an argument against mine. Anyway, I don't see how my definition -- emphasizing sexual characteristics -- is different from the usual meaning of the term.
Images of sexualised children are becoming increasingly common in advertising and marketing material. Children who appear aged 12 years and under are dressed, posed and made up in the same way as sexy adult models. "Corporate paedophilia" is a metaphor used to describe advertising and marketing that sexualises children in these ways.
I am pretty sure those children are not given fake beard and fake body hair .
The American Psychological Association (APA) in its 2007 Report looked at the cognitive and emotional consequences of sexualization and the consequences for mental and physical health, and impact on development of a healthy sexual self-image.[5] The report considers that a person is sexualized in the following situations:
a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;
a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or
sexuality is inappropriately imposed upon a person.
Nothing about secondary sexual characteristics, it is all about sexual attractiveness or sexual acts. Like in every definition and every use outside of yours, ever.
Basically, you have given a ridiculous definition that no-one else uses, but you also shifted on me the burden of proof to show that your definition is not the right one. Great.
Manchu wrote: Non sequitur. Characters are not images.
No, but an image of a character pretty much imply the existence of a character. Let me give you an example. I just did an image search with the pin-up keyword. I found that :
Spoiler:
This is an image of a character “who exists solely for the sake of being sexualized.” And do you know what is funny? It is the case for every damn one of the other results too!
My solution was to never go at a tournament. Well, that is not true: actually I did not even knew tournaments existed. I just played the game as a game…
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 07:59:23
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/12 12:25:30
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Needs a source, because I actually do know quite a lot about biologically and that makes no sense. Men have stronger upper bodies thanks to evolutionary biology, being the only gender that can have children doesn't automatically mean women can take more pain though. I mean, the parts of the body that deal with the pain perhaps, but they evolve to deal with it. The idea that "men couldnt take the pain" is an old wives tale.
gak, my mate lives next to a woman with 11 kids, if it hurt that fething much wouldn't she have quit after the first one?
Basically I reckon its down to the individual, so the world is full of tough men, and weak men, and tough women, and weak women, and they all sit around and discuss why none of them are as tough as me.
Yeah, I'd like to see a really good, conclusive study that shows that women take pain "better" than men, and what that means.
Ahem.... What do women have every month compared to men?
Needs a source, because I actually do know quite a lot about biologically and that makes no sense. Men have stronger upper bodies thanks to evolutionary biology, being the only gender that can have children doesn't automatically mean women can take more pain though. I mean, the parts of the body that deal with the pain perhaps, but they evolve to deal with it. The idea that "men couldnt take the pain" is an old wives tale.
gak, my mate lives next to a woman with 11 kids, if it hurt that fething much wouldn't she have quit after the first one?
Basically I reckon its down to the individual, so the world is full of tough men, and weak men, and tough women, and weak women, and they all sit around and discuss why none of them are as tough as me.
I would agree with that logic,
Considering there have been supporting facts for both men and women have higher tolerance for pain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 12:31:56
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/12 13:04:43
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
mattyrm wrote: Its why the military has different standards for men and women. If what you were saying was true they would be identical, or made easier for men!
Not really no. I don't entirely approve of the military's differing standards, myself, but you have to admit, someone whom has been sedentary their entire lives is going to have a harder time adapting to military lifestyle than someone whom has been fairly active their entire lives, with sports and fights and etc.
Basically, society ENCOURAGES women to stay physically out of shape while doing their best to somehow still manage to stay thin in spite of this. A woman whom has been active her whole life doesn't usually have a problem meeting the military's standards.
I disagree with how they are going about trying to fix this problem, mind you.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:17:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/12 13:23:55
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
mattyrm wrote: Its why the military has different standards for men and women. If what you were saying was true they would be identical, or made easier for men!
Not really no. I don't entirely approve of the military's differing standards, myself, but you have to admit, someone whom has been sedentary their entire lives is going to have a harder time adapting to military lifestyle than someone whom has been fairly active their entire lives, with sports and fights and etc.
Basically, society ENCOURAGES women to stay physically out of shape while doing their best to somehow still manage to stay thin in spite of this.
more of that nonsense eh?
So why don't you take the Navy's physical test and let us know how you do.
You have 2 mins to do as many push ups as you can. Take a 2 min rest, then you have 2 mins to do as many sit ups as you can. Then go run a 1.5 mile course.
mattyrm wrote: Its why the military has different standards for men and women. If what you were saying was true they would be identical, or made easier for men!
Not really no. I don't entirely approve of the military's differing standards, myself, but you have to admit, someone whom has been sedentary their entire lives is going to have a harder time adapting to military lifestyle than someone whom has been fairly active their entire lives, with sports and fights and etc.
Basically, society ENCOURAGES women to stay physically out of shape while doing their best to somehow still manage to stay thin in spite of this.
more of that nonsense eh?
So why don't you take the Navy's physical test and let us know how you do.
You have 2 mins to do as many push ups as you can. Take a 2 min rest, then you have 2 mins to do as many sit ups as you can. Then go run a 1.5 mile course.
I remember when I got do 100 push ups. On my finger tips. Ah. Good times. Doubt I could do ten now But if you need a box lifted, I can lift that mother fething box!
LordofHats wrote: I remember when I got do 100 push ups. On my finger tips. Ah. Good times. Doubt I could do ten now But if you need a box lifted, I can lift that mother fething box!
I'm out of shape compared to ten years ago, but I just did twenty of those as part of my daily exercise.
Could probably do more if I was trying to build up to something or pass a physical test, though.
Still... I could do so much more back when I was trying to lose babyfat and get in shape in my teen years. Then again, I was a lot more motivated to exercise back then, now I just do it out of habit.
(I'm assuming you mean fingers as in all five, mind you, I find the idea of doing it on one fingertip to be stupid)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:34:12
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/12 13:41:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I used to do Karate 5 days a week in High School I was assistant instructor for 3 years so I needed to be there early and I basically had nothing to do but work out and wax on wax off the mats And yeah, all 5 fingers. That whole 1 finger thing is terrible for you (yes it's possible) but the finger was not designed to be used that way. I started doing it after knuckle pushups became too easy I used to be damn ripped.
Of course, being assistant instructor, if I did 100 push ups, everyone else did 100 push ups (my last day I made them do 200, because I'm evil like that), and the girls didn't seem to struggle with that anymore than the boys did. If anything the girls almost consistent did a better push up than the boys. I had to keep an eye on all of them make sure they were doing the full motion (chest should be about a fist's height from the floor) and the girls as I remember almost never needed to be reminded.
The entire bit about men have more muscle is completely off the point. Fiction is almost always about exceptional people. Whatever the average for humans might be is wholly irrelevant to a work of fiction (i.e. it's an argument that falls in the pit of pointless before it even starts).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:43:25
Melissia wrote: Basically, society ENCOURAGES women to stay physically out of shape while doing their best to somehow still manage to stay thin in spite of this. A woman whom has been active her whole life doesn't usually have a problem meeting the military's standards.
The Marines seem to keep recruiting inactive women, I guess.
2014/09/12 13:56:47
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
.
