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2014/09/14 16:46:02
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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 Asherian Command wrote:How does that make it a better game though?
I keep asking you this but you keep saying it adds a female character.
All your logic can be summed up as.
If I add a playable Female Character the game is instantly a better, more entertaining game.
What? How? How does that do that? That sounds like magic. It doesn't work like that.
You are not trying to understand, you are just trying to prove to us that we are wrong. Is that not true?
I am pretty sure I will know when you actually start trying to understand. That will be when you change from “Why would this make the game better” to “Why would you enjoy the game more”. Then I will consider that maybe, maybe you are trying to understand.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/14 16:49:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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 Melissia wrote:You have spent this entire thread arguing against the inclusion of women, and arguing FOR the assumption of men as the default and women only being included if there's some special reason for the character to not be male. That's all you've been doing.
That's all you're STILL doing.
Your experiences as a writer are irrelevant to what you've been arguing for in this thread-- which is that the only reason women should be included is if there's a compelling narrative reason-- otherwise, have a man in the role instead, there's no reason, according to your argument, to justify including a man in the story, because men are default.
That is not what I am saying.
Adding a female character or a male character in a certain role in a previous role owned by another gender. Does not add anything to the game. Other than an appearance.
It is good to add a female character to a role as main character, but making it so you can choose aesthetically whether to be female doesn't add anything.
But putting a female character into a role as main character, giving them character, giving them more than just a blank slate is better than just changing their appearance. Because all you have said is adding it and making them a female character is better and adds more. No it doesn't.
Adding a female character. A character, and fleshing them out, and giving them personalities unique to them and make it so that they are more than just a different appearance is different than adding being able to play as a female character. If the box art shows only a female character.
And the female character is more than a blank slate. That has my support. But it does not mean adding a new appearance look for aesthetics makes it a better game.
None of you have said that. That I would agree with. That is a valid statement and something I've said.
And yes my experiences as a writer are relevant, because I will be changing the industry to include more women as central characters, but I will make it more than aesthetic choice. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Asherian Command wrote:How does that make it a better game though?
I keep asking you this but you keep saying it adds a female character.
All your logic can be summed up as.
If I add a playable Female Character the game is instantly a better, more entertaining game.
What? How? How does that do that? That sounds like magic. It doesn't work like that.
You are not trying to understand, you are just trying to prove to us that we are wrong. Is that not true?
I am pretty sure I will know when you actually start trying to understand. That will be when you change from “Why would this make the game better” to “Why would you enjoy the game more”. Then I will consider that maybe, maybe you are trying to understand.
Oh I fully understand but you aren't talking about it, you have all said that making a female character makes a game more enjoyable. You haven't delved into the detail INTO WHY.
I've asked you for pages upon pages. AS TO WHY. And you keep repeating statements.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 16:51:02
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/14 16:53:39
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Yes it is. Your argument starts with the assumption of a male character, never questioning why that character HAS to be male, and then asks women characters to justify their existence. This is the argument of someone who wants to exclude female characters. And that's the argument you've been making.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 16:56:07
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/14 16:55:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Melissia wrote:Yes it is.
Your argument starts with the assumption of a male character, never questioning why that character HAS to be male, and then asks women characters to justify their existence.
This is the argument of someone who wants to exclude female characters.
Read my entire statement before you cherry pick.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/14 17:01:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Read your own goddamned posts first.
Because this argument I mentioned? That IS the argument you've been making this entire thread. Hell, you're still making it in the post above, claiming that men should be default and women should only be added if you think they are justified-- that we shouldn't add the option to choose differently than the normal "blank slate" male character because you think it "adds nothing" (ignoring the numerous people whom have said they enjoy the addition for its own sake, even). That men don't have to have character to justify inclusion, but women do.
If you believe that your previous arguments are wrong, then go ahead, admit that.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/14 17:01:05
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Asherian Command wrote:Oh I fully understand but you aren't talking about it, you have all said that making a female character makes a game more enjoyable. You haven't delved into the detail INTO WHY.
I've asked you for pages upon pages. AS TO WHY. And you keep repeating statements.
No, you have never asked. What you have asked is “How would this make the game better”, which basically means “How would this make me enjoy the game more”. But you have never asked “Why would this make the game more enjoyable to you”. All the while, you have tried to develop arguments to prove this would not make the game better, have you not? And why would you want to prove to us that we do not know what would make a game enjoyable to us?
You are not interested in understanding, you are only interested in proving your point.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/14 17:01:06
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings
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I honestly couldn't care about wether I play a man or a woman, as long as it fits the setting.
Is it a game in medieval Europe, where you're a knight? Man. Female knights don't exist.
Game set in a matriarchal society? Yeah, I'll be a woman.
You get the idea.
I'm a female in Destiny, since I didn't wqnt to be a robot, and giving my character blonde hair meant giving my character massive yellow eyebrows, which isn't really cool. No boob armor, by the way (as far as I, as a Titan, have seen anyway).
I generally pick my character for what I think is the coolest, and/or the most fitting.
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2014/09/14 17:02:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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 thenoobbomb wrote:Is it a game in medieval Europe, where you're a knight? Man. Female knights don't exist.
Yes they did.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/14 17:06:38
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Melissia wrote:Hell, you're still making it in the post above, claiming that men should be default and women should only be added if you think they are justified-- that we shouldn't add the option to choose differently than the normal "blank slate" male character because you think it "adds nothing" (ignoring the numerous people whom have said they enjoy the addition for its own sake, even).
Let me ask this question. Asherian Command, suppose that there is a old-school generic shooter being made. Demons are attacking in a near or far future, or there is a tournament, or whatever. This game includes no character development whatsoever. The main character will just blow up everything in his/her path while shooting one-liners at most. Should the character be male, female, or should you be given the choice?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 17:08:31
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2015/01/08 17:30:47
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings
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So, how commonplace were they, then? And how well were they treated?
If you'd make a game set in feudal England about an average knight, it most certainly would not be a woman.
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2014/09/14 17:09:43
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Using that same argument, we shouldn't have Knights at all in a medieval warfare game, instead we should have you play as a peasant with a dinky spear and maybe a shortsword, shield, and leather jacket if you're lucky.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 17:09:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/14 17:10:18
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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If you do not know, do not use history as an argument  .
thenoobbomb wrote:If you'd make a game set in feudal England about an average knight, it most certainly would not be a woman.
Why would you make your main character average? Makes no sense to me.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/14 17:11:05
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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I have laid the trail for you to follow. Be it vague or little of understanding. But I have laid it. I have said my piece and I will walk away from this, till the two posters here have learned what I was saying.
I have said exactly what I have meant to, and neither took the time to look at the argument that I have created and have only frothed at their mouths and ran their lips without thinking and responding correctly.
1. I have said I do support it.
2. Asethically or character or wise.
3. neither of you have been specific. I have repeated the question several times. I will not repeat again.
4. There are times when it makes sense, and when it doesn't.
5. How does it improve gameplay.
6. What does it add? Other than being female.
I personally think. That adding a female just because is the worst way you can approach this issue.
You can say the following. Which is a repeat of what I have already said. Several times.....
"But putting a female character into a role as main character, giving them character, giving them more than just a blank slate is better than just changing their appearance. Because all you have said is adding it and making them a female character is better and adds more. No it doesn't. Adding a female character. A character, and fleshing them out, and giving them personalities unique to them and make it so that they are more than just a different appearance is different than adding and being able to play as a female character. If the box art shows only a female character. And the female character is more than a blank slate. That has my support. But it does not mean adding a new appearance look for aesthetics makes it a better game. "
I have said that on this very page. And neither of you acknowledged that.
No, you have never asked. What you have asked is “How would this make the game better”, which basically means “How would this make me enjoy the game more”. But you have never asked “Why would this make the game more enjoyable to you”. All the while, you have tried to develop arguments to prove this would not make the game better, have you not? And why would you want to prove to us that we do not know what would make a game enjoyable to us?
You are not interested in understanding, you are only interested in proving your point.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/613557.page#7201635
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/613557.page#7201572
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/613557.page#7201548
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/613557.page#7201528
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/613557.page#7201508
I think I have.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/14 17:11:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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How many of them were fighting though? I could not find information about knightly women who fought in battle. That's not to say there can't be a game wherein you play as a female knight in medieval Europe. As long as the game points out that it's an unusual circumstance there should be no inconsistency.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 17:14:20
What I have
 ~4100
 ~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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2014/09/14 17:14:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If you do not know, do not use history as an argument .
thenoobbomb wrote:If you'd make a game set in feudal England about an average knight, it most certainly would not be a woman.
Why would you make your main character average? Makes no sense to me.
Average is something we can relate to, and more people would identify with the character than a rich noble men.
Let me ask this question. Asherian Command, suppose that there is a old-school generic shooter being made. Demons are attacking in a near or far future, or there is a tournament, or whatever. This game includes no character development whatsoever. The main character will just blow up everything in his/her path while shooting one-liners at most. Should the character be male, female, or should you be given the choice?
It doesn't matter then. Its just a skin and appearance then. But that is still the worst way to approach it.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/14 17:14:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Asherian Command wrote: Melissia wrote:Then the idea of playing a cowgirl in RDR shouldn't bother you. But it does.
Heres a thing, does it make the experience greater for you.
Does it make better for you?
What about other people
Does adding a cowgirl make the experience more entertaining?
No. It doesn't. Its a gender. Who cares. This is a character, with its unique setting.
That was the designers decision. They decided for a genre, and that genre rarely has strong females with guns. It just doesn't.
Its not that type of genre.
You know one of the funny stats I have learned about gender and gameing is that men play as women more then women play as men. (When given a choice.) In that sense, you whould better please the most people by using female characters. Just one of my nutty thoughts.
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2014/09/14 17:14:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings
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Melissia wrote:Using that same argument, we shouldn't have Knights at all in a medieval warfare game, instead we should have you play as a peasant with a dinky spear and maybe a shortsword, shield, and leather jacket if you're lucky.
But then it wouldn't be about knights now, wouldn't it?
Yes, I know there have (despite the wording of my previous posts) been a couple of female knights (not too sure on them actually being knights as the King'd have to bestow that on them), but I think you'd be hard pressed to name more than ten.
Also, a counter question. How about games where you can only be a woman? Is that fine, or should there be an option to play a massive man filled with steroids, too?
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2014/09/14 17:15:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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All those links go to the same page, at the top. So, uh not really convincing.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/14 17:16:15
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I'm guessing at roughly 1%-30% of the armed forces were women in the medieval period, depending on a few things-- which war, which nation, which time period within the era, etc. In spite of the traditional biases of historians, there's records of women fighting in the infantry for Britain and France, as well as women knights marching with the army and even leading armies.
The lack of documentation of women in history is not really a new thing. Historians have, historically, ignored or downplayed the contributions of women in all but the most exceptional of cases.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/14 17:16:18
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Asherian Command wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If you do not know, do not use history as an argument .
thenoobbomb wrote:If you'd make a game set in feudal England about an average knight, it most certainly would not be a woman.
Why would you make your main character average? Makes no sense to me.
Average is something we can relate to, and more people would identify with the character than a rich noble men.
All knights were rich and noble. You didn't get a steel sword and plate armour if you weren't rich.
So, bit of a fail there.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
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2014/09/14 17:17:12
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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nomotog wrote: Asherian Command wrote: Melissia wrote:Then the idea of playing a cowgirl in RDR shouldn't bother you. But it does.
Heres a thing, does it make the experience greater for you.
Does it make better for you?
What about other people
Does adding a cowgirl make the experience more entertaining?
No. It doesn't. Its a gender. Who cares. This is a character, with its unique setting.
That was the designers decision. They decided for a genre, and that genre rarely has strong females with guns. It just doesn't.
Its not that type of genre.
You know one of the funny stats I have learned about gender and gameing is that men play as women more then women play as men. (When given a choice.) In that sense, you whould better please the most people by using female characters. Just one of my nutty thoughts.
I always play as a female character, I don't know why I just gravitate towards it.
Its more interesting to do so. I don't think though it really adds anything to the community or the genre for aesthetically to add that choice. But if you made it more meaningful, sort of like ME where there are subtle differences between the male and female shepherds. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Click fliter thread, and you will find everything. Type it in.
And you will see it. 
Personally I have asked you those questions. I just didn't add you.
I have made a lot of arguments on that matter though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 17:18:16
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/14 17:18:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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So you would agree to making this character female, right?
I like old-school shooters and I do not care for your disapproval .
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/14 17:19:22
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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 A Town Called Malus wrote: Asherian Command wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If you do not know, do not use history as an argument .
thenoobbomb wrote:If you'd make a game set in feudal England about an average knight, it most certainly would not be a woman.
Why would you make your main character average? Makes no sense to me.
Average is something we can relate to, and more people would identify with the character than a rich noble men.
All knights were rich and noble. You didn't get a steel sword and plate armour if you weren't rich.
So, bit of a fail there.
Not all Knights were rich.
Contray to popular belief. Hedge Knights, Traveling swords are more common place than noble knights. Automatically Appended Next Post: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So you would agree to making this character female, right?
I like old-school shooters and I do not care for your disapproval .
Thats just aesthetically I don't care then. You can do it, but it doesn't add representation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 17:19:55
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/14 17:20:19
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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A Town Called Malus wrote: Asherian Command wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If you do not know, do not use history as an argument .
thenoobbomb wrote:If you'd make a game set in feudal England about an average knight, it most certainly would not be a woman.
Why would you make your main character average? Makes no sense to me.
Average is something we can relate to, and more people would identify with the character than a rich noble men.
All knights were rich and noble. You didn't get a steel sword and plate armour if you weren't rich.
So, bit of a fail there.
Not to mention you need someone to teach you how to use that sharp piece of metal, as well as a couple of people to help you put that armor on.
War is expensive. Which is why the average infantry man back then was given a spear.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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2014/09/14 17:21:26
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Your links still do not work.
I explained why the “you” matter, though.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/14 17:22:18
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Not to mention you need someone to teach you how to use that sharp piece of metal, as well as a couple of people to help you put that armor on.
War is expensive. Which is why the average infantry man back then was given a spear.
True, but not all of them were rich. It really matters where you were from, But average in the sense of not middle class but an average everyday knight in that community from that time and place.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2014/09/14 17:22:20
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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And then argued against it. Claiming you support something and arguing against it doesn't make the claim very believable.
Unless we're dealing with issues of fatherhood and motherhood, the "when it makes sense" is "all hte time", and "when it doesn't" is "never".
It makes me enjoy the game more.
My enjoyment.
Asherian Command wrote:I personally think. That adding a female just because is the worst way you can approach this issue.
And I disagree.
Asherian Command wrote:But putting a female character into a role as main character, giving them character, giving them more than just a blank slate is better than just changing their appearance.
Which you've never said about a male character, ever. You've never asked anyone to justify the existence of a male character-- it's only women which you demand a justification for the inclusion of.
Asherian Command wrote:Because all you have said is adding it and making them a female character is better and adds more.
Because it makes the game more enjoyable for me.
And yet I enjoy the game more, therefor this is wrong.
I acknowledged what you said several times. You just don't like the fact that I'm pointing out the unfortunate implications of what you've said.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2014/09/14 17:23:12
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Asherian Command wrote: Contray to popular belief. Hedge Knights, Traveling swords are more common place than noble knights.
Sounding a bit less like the traditional knight (shiny armour and sword, chivalry and all that) and more like a sellsword. In which case it could be male or female. No reason a woman couldn't be trained to swing a sword.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 17:24:39
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
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2014/09/14 17:23:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Asherian Command wrote:Thats just aesthetically I don't care then. You can do it, but it doesn't add representation.
Good. Because you kept telling Melissia and me that “We should not do that because it adds nothing”.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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2014/09/14 17:27:09
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Use Filter thread. :/ And I disagree.
Why Because I don't think asethically adding something to the game says anything, it doesn't add anything. I am arguing that adding it asethically IT doesn't add anything. So why have it. it's only women which you demand a justification for the inclusion of.
No, I think certain roles do not make sense for a woman to be in, such as that of a father or of a son, or of a war hero in the united states military who is in delta force and has a wife and kids and is a son at war. Why would you want to make someone like Captain Walker a woman? Because it adds to your enjoyment? Really? I find that hard to believe. I still think its useless and it doesn't add representation so why have it. But adding it to ALL games is a stupid idea. Making a certain character female does not add anything into the game. You can add it, I just think it sends the wrong idea If want to have a female character that is fine. but when I play a game I want them to know what gender they are, and to prove gender stereotypes as wrong.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 17:29:00
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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