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2014/09/14 18:47:00
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I don't know. your'e the one that said you doubted my honesty. Why don't you tell me why you insinuate that I'm a liar.
Asherian Command wrote: Why would you get light hearted pleasure out of playing a female character?
I never said "light-hearted pleasure". I said "fun". Which I have defined in this thread as "amusing, entertaining, or enjoyable".
I unashamedly find games more enjoyable wehen I can play as a female protagonist. Thus, more fun.
If you want to ask why, the simple answer is "immersion", as I have said dozens of times before-- including to you. While immersing myself in a game with a male protagonist is not impossible, I am able to immerse myself in a character easier when the character is female. As a result, those games are superior to me than other games. Other aspects of a game may make up for this lack of a female protagonist, such as in the case of Half Life*. But given two games of equal quality, one of which offers a female protagonist or a protagonist I can customize, one of which offers a male protagonist?
I will skip the later for the former every time.
*(which still would have been better if I hadn't been reminded of Freeman's gender every five minutes by the NPCs talking about him)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/14 18:47:45
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
thenoobbomb wrote: So, if every game should have the option to play as a female character, should there be an option to be, say, Lary Croft instead of Lara Croft? A male Bayonetta? Man-Faith? And so forth..?
You know I am going to take this and say it depends, but it doesn't depend on the story or on the what the dev wants. It depends on what the game is and how it wants to engage the player. If a game wants to suck the player into the world, then I say a customizable character or neutral character is called for. If the game wants to entertain the player with someone else story, then I say a more defined character is called for. I'll also add that if that defined character is boring, plain or uninteresting it's a problem that makes the game less entertaining. Kind of look at it as who is the star of the show.
So you think Lord of the Rings is boring then?
Or you know God of War.
Defined characters are good characters. Captain Walker and Far Cry 3's main characters are defined characters. And they sold really well and are a lot of fun to play. I like defined characters, I hate customizable character. Thats just me trying to live in a world outside of my own reality that is true escapism and I don't like that.
I don't think games should be where we escape to. I think its where we learn about ourselves and other people and have them teach us something.
I said if they are boring, then it's a problem. If they are inserting characters with interesting arcs, then it's a good thing.
I would actually single out the new lara croft as kind of a dull character. It's kind crazy when you think about it, but she has no development in the game in spite of all that happens. There is a line midway were one of the characters tells her she doesn't know what sacrifice is and by the end of the game that is still true. She is the same person at the start of the game as she is at the end of it.
Actually far cry 3 is kind of neat when you think about it. Most games in FP use a neutral character, but far cry 3 dose have a character and they do get a neat arc. The fun part is how that arc mirrors the players. When you play a game like a sand box, you tend to start out really focused on the story and not a bastard who runs people over at random, but after awhile you get more use to being a bastard and less into the story. This mirrors brody's arc were he becomes less worried about saving his friends and more into the killing
(except for the ending) but
And yes I agree. Lara Croft is so under developed its hilarious.
But still the industry as a whole doesn't write that well.
I admittedly can say, that even my writing is not that grand. But most designers are focused on making this childhood fantasy character, instead of telling a story, and using different colors other than white.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 18:49:49
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/14 19:06:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: Ash (if you don't mind me calling you that), I think we are not that far apart. For some games, character is central to the story. And for those games, the character`s sex sometimes matters for the story the designer wants to tell.
But, some games has the sex of the character not matter. Why does it default to "white male?" Right now, a sizeable number of games tell a story from a single groups pov. Some people (enough to make a fuss) like getting a different pov than the "default."
I think its mainly because the industry thinks the main buyers want to represent the industry standard character.
Once they change that ideal then games will start having different POVs.
And we get locked into vicious circle: Industry makes games for a certain group, yet doesn't understand why it can't expand outside that group. Its a matter of getting out of one‘s comfort zone (a thing that is mandatory for a lot of minorities and women to interact with society.)
The Telltale Walking Dead games did something different. Why not others? The market exists.
2014/09/14 19:22:50
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
A skin is the outside of a model, it is easier to make new skins, than new models. That requires programming and artist ability.
Skins only require an artist. It is fairly easy to make a skin.
Such as in minecraft. I made my own skin in five minutes.
Actually, it is a new model, not a new texture. But still does not change the fact you have to be pretty blind not to notice that this may be nothing to you, but it is something your customer (you know, the people that pay their money so you can have stuff) do care.
Sigvatr wrote: In RDR, it would not make sense to have a female protagonist as cowgirls break with the Western scenario and the character's main motivation would be weaker as the DiD thingy works differently with men and women.
It would evolve the western scenario, yes. Is that a bad thing? Also, can you develop why the DiD works differently with men and women, and if this is a good thing?
Asherian Command wrote: There may be sometimes when it is harder but I can tell an average woman apart from a man, even if they are wearing full armor. Its how they move and how they walk.
Feminist/SJW: WE DON'T KNOW! Wasn't it because it's sexist? I thought men were scum? I need to go, big bang is starting.
This is interesting, please tell me more about it!
Asherian Command wrote: OR else it is just a fill in your own character. I don't like that, that is just an RPG game, which is fine, but I don't want all games to be like that.
That is how basically every good old FPS game worked, and it was very good. You keep saying that only gameplay matters, so why do you care about character development?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/14 19:24:37
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
That is how basically every good old FPS game worked, and it was very good. You keep saying that only gameplay matters, so why do you care about character development?
Because character development adds more, you need a combination of all things related to a game in order to have a good game. You can have the best gameplay in the world, but if you don't have a story or good characters. I will not call you a good game.
ctually, it is a new model, not a new texture. But still does not change the fact you have to be pretty blind not to notice that this may be nothing to you, but it is something your customer (you know, the people that pay their money so you can have stuff) do care.
Its a new skin texture. In heroes of the storm, its not a new model. Its a new skin texture. Do not say it isn't. Because it is a skin texture. I can tell a skin texture from a model pretty easily. Some are new models but not all of them are new models. Most of them are textures.
Also those videos, I can tell from their legs and forearms they are women
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/14 19:26:34
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/14 19:27:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
But it adds nothing to gameplay, it does not improve gameplay in any way, story do not matters, it is not going to make the game more fun! Who cares about character development? Adding character development is wasting resources that should be spent somewhere else.
Asherian Command wrote: you need a combination of all things related to a game in order to have a good game.
Yes, you need gameplay and aesthetic. Painkiller has both and that is why it is so awesome. But nobody cares about story, it adds nothing to gameplay, and it will not make the game better, right? Who cares about story?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/14 19:30:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
But it adds nothing to gameplay, it does not improve gameplay in any way, story do not matters, it is not going to make the game more fun! Who cares about character development? Adding character development is wasting resources that should be spent somewhere else.
Asherian Command wrote: you need a combination of all things related to a game in order to have a good game.
Yes, you need gameplay and aesthetic. Painkiller has both and that is why it is so awesome. But nobody cares about story, it adds nothing to gameplay, and it will not make the game better, right? Who cares about story?
I personally perfer story and character development, because it shows you tried in that department.
You can say its not needed, but at the same time it gives meaning to the game. It gives this idea that there is more than fun to be had in a game. Story gives subistence and gives a deeper idea other than to have fun.
You are using my argument against me. And you will fail spectacularly
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/14 19:30:43
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Its a new skin texture. In heroes of the storm, its not a new model. Its a new skin texture. Do not say it isn't. Because it is a skin texture. I can tell a skin texture from a model pretty easily. Some are new models but not all of them are new models. Most of them are textures.
Spoiler:
Only Raynor is only a skin.
Otherwise known as: you failed.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/14 19:32:49
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: The message would of not sold as well if it was a female walker. The character wouldn't of been as relatable.
People don't like characters solely for relatability, the characters you admire in enjoy in video games are most likely nothing like you. I doubt you have much in common with a female power armoured warrior shooting down aliens, a pudgy plumber traveling a psychedelic world to save a
princess, etc.
2014/09/14 19:34:01
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Goddamned MLP gets in everything. It's like sand, except more filthy.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/14 19:35:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Its a new skin texture. In heroes of the storm, its not a new model. Its a new skin texture. Do not say it isn't. Because it is a skin texture. I can tell a skin texture from a model pretty easily. Some are new models but not all of them are new models. Most of them are textures.
Spoiler:
Only Raynor is only a skin.
Otherwise known as: you failed.
Those are skins XD
Not new models.
Oh my goodness they are not completely new models. They added an attachment to the skin. Hahahaha. Oh dear you have not taken animation classes.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/14 19:35:44
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I personally perfer story and character development, because it shows you tried in that department.
Yeah, you personally prefer it. But who cares about it? Noone! It adds nothing to the game. Will it improve my gameplay? Will it make the game look better? No, therefore it is useless!
Asherian Command wrote: You can say its not needed, but at the same time it gives meaning to the game.
But horror games have story that are not light-earthed enjoyment, so stories do no bring fun to game. They are boring and we should never have game with stories!
Asherian Command wrote: Story gives subistence and gives a deeper idea other than to have fun.
Oh my goodness they are not completely new models. They added an attachment to the skin. Hahahaha. Oh dear you have not taken animation classes.
Those four mounts are not different models?
.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 19:36:45
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/14 19:39:47
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
A change of skin texture (a "reskin") does not add new shapes to the 3d model.
I would hope someone that mocks other people claiming that they haven't gone to an animation class would themselves know this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 19:42:16
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/14 19:43:37
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
If you aren't getting amusement, entertainment, or enjoyment out of it, why are you playing to begin with?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: I like games with light hearted fun and enjoyment, there are many other ways to have fun.
You need to figure out how you're defining "fun" and "enjoyment", because you're contradicting yourself constantly.
Asherian Command wrote: You can if you edit the model but it is not a new model its an attachment which is apart of a new skin texture.
If you change the model, it's not just a new skin. It's a new model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 19:47:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/14 19:49:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Which changes the model, and therefor it's not merely a reskin.
Also? You still need to figure out how you're going to define enjoyment and fun, becuase you're still contradicting yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 19:50:44
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/14 20:04:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Tetris. Pong. Super Hexagon.
You are wrong.
Also note that the only games without any kind of aesthetic are those that are entirely text-based, like Depression Quests, and those are way rarer than games with no story.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/14 20:05:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Tetris. Pong. Super Hexagon.
You are wrong.
Also note that the only games without any kind of aesthetic are those that are entirely text-based, like Depression Quests, and those are way rarer than games with no story.
Check my post again. I said its rare to have games that do not have stories... READ BEFORE YOU POST
Shesh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 20:06:13
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/14 20:06:45
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Tetris. Pong. Super Hexagon.
You are wrong.
Also note that the only games without any kind of aesthetic are those that are entirely text-based, like Depression Quests, and those are way rarer than games with no story.
Check my post again. I said its rare to have games that do not have stories... READ BEFORE YOU POST
Shesh.
.
What can I say, I already quoted you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 20:08:17
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/14 20:09:47
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Entertainment - To be enterained or give attention or consideration to (an idea, suggestion, or feeling).
Those are bizarre and unusual definitions. Also, your definition of entertainment is self-referential, making it a bad definition.
Standard definitions are as such: Fun: amusing, entertaining, or enjoyable. Amusement: the state or experience of finding something funny. Entertainment: the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment. Enjoyment: the state or process of taking pleasure in something
Asherian Command wrote: The model is changed, but its not a new model. Its still the same base model, just attachments have been made.
Therefor, it is more than a reskin, it is a remodel-- a change to the model itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 20:12:26
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/14 20:15:56
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Entertainment - To be enterained or give attention or consideration to (an idea, suggestion, or feeling).
Those are bizarre and unusual definitions. Also, your definition of entertainment is self-referential, making it a bad definition.
Standard definitions are as such:
Fun: amusing, entertaining, or enjoyable.
Amusement: the state or experience of finding something funny.
Entertainment: the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.
Enjoyment: the state or process of taking pleasure in something
Asherian Command wrote: The model is changed, but its not a new model. Its still the same base model, just attachments have been made.
Therefor, it is more than a reskin, it is a remodel-- a change to the model itself.
Correct but it is not a new model.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/14 20:20:37
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/14 20:21:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
So, what is your definition of skin, texture and model? Because surely what you buy in HotS is not just a new texture.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
.
.
