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 AdeptSister wrote:
I just was playing as FemShep for the first time in ME1, and while "accurate," having to deal with the creep Harkin seriously challenged my Paragon rating...

I think everyone experienced that, even as a male shepherd I wanted to kick him in the nads.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
all the characters being male because "you have to justify women existing otherwise assume male"

Whether or not you can play a female-skinned Shepherd has nothing to do with whether there can be any other female characters. As I have argued before, hiring a woman to read a script written for a man is not the same thing as writing a female character. Ideally, Mass Effect would have been playable by two characters rather than a reskinnable male character

I'm not really sure I would have enjoyed the game more if I was forced to deal with the same misogynistic gak I have to deal with on a day to day basis in my video games.

Certainly, those are always the most uncomfortable and unenjoyable and, frankly, distasteful parts of a lot of other games I've played.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
all the characters being male because "you have to justify women existing otherwise assume male"

Whether or not you can play a female-skinned Shepherd has nothing to do with whether there can be any other female characters. As I have argued before, hiring a woman to read a script written for a man is not the same thing as writing a female character. Ideally, Mass Effect would have been playable by two characters rather than a reskinnable male character

I'm not really sure I would have enjoyed the game more if I was forced to deal with the same misogynistic gak I have to deal with on a day to day basis in my video games.

Certainly, those are always the most uncomfortable and unenjoyable and, frankly, distasteful parts of a lot of other games I've played.

It doesn't always have to be a negative connotation.
Could be a good thing sometimes. And sometimes the guys are treated crappily thats what should happen.

And you can show the differences how the different sexes are interacted without getting creepy/icky/annoying. Because if you make one experience inherently more hostile than another, than you built in an "easy" versus "hard" mode without explicitly stating it.

You just have to be clear with your audience.

 Asherian Command wrote:
It doesn't always have to be a negative connotation.

I can't think of a single example in video games where it is NOT negative or creepy.

I doubt you can either.

 Manchu wrote:
As I have argued before, hiring a woman to read a script written for a man is not the same thing as writing a female character. Ideally, Mass Effect would have been playable by two characters rather than a reskinnable male character.

I have no idea what would have needed to be changed. Can you provide an example?

 Melissia wrote:
I can't think of a single example in video games where it is NOT negative or creepy.

Huh? Could you explain what you are referring to?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no idea what would have needed to be changed. Can you provide an example?

I'm not arguing that ManShep needed more changes to be FemShep but that there should have been an entirely different female lead character with her own script.

 AdeptSister wrote:
And you can show the differences how the different sexes are interacted without getting creepy/icky/annoying. Because if you make one experience inherently more hostile than another, than you built in an "easy" versus "hard" mode without explicitly stating it.

You just have to be clear with you audience.

I have not suggested that.

I am saying they should tell the difference and react differently.

Why does everyone think that as a negative.

Both genders have issues and problems and they should both be addressed. But not in all games.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
Arkham City made it creepy to play Catwoman. I don't think that made it a better game.

Some people play games for fantasy. Do I really wish to play a game that reminds me of the ick that some have to deal with IRL? Being able to play as a woman in a game can be just cosmetic. And that's ok.

Why not? I didn't find it distasteful. Lets also remind ourselves those are criminals, the worst of the worst.

Thats not sexist. That is a criminal saying those things. Is it wrong for the designer to make you feel creeped out?

To make you think? No. Its not!

Games are not supposed to always be an escapism fantasy.

I think people need to learn that sooner than later.

Yet the "worse of the worse" never threatened Batman with sexual violence...Because...reasons.

If being a superhero is not suppose to be an escapist fantasy, then what is?

I would guess NPC trying to flirt with you or throwing gendered insults at you. That is the only difference I could see that could came from playing a female character.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I can't think of a single example in video games where it is NOT negative or creepy.

Huh? Could you explain what you are referring to?

That's sort of what I'm trying to get Asherian to talk about, because I can't really think of any examples of the sort of thing he's mentioning aside from very creepy and uncomfortable gak like a male character offering a female character favors for sex, or rape threats, or uncomfortable creepy catcalls, or uncomfortable creepy undesired flirts, or what not.

 Manchu wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no idea what would have needed to be changed. Can you provide an example?

I'm not arguing that ManShep needed more changes to be FemShep but that there should have been an entirely different female lead character with her own script.

Okay, but that is not an example of the differences between the scripts. What would those difference be?

My problem is the boobs. They are never quite big enough.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I can't think of a single example in video games where it is NOT negative or creepy.

Huh? Could you explain what you are referring to?

That's sort of what I'm trying to get Asherian to talk about, because I can't really think of any examples of the sort of thing he's mentioning aside from very creepy and uncomfortable gak like a male character offering a female character favors for sex, or rape threats, or uncomfortable creepy catcalls, or uncomfortable creepy undesired flirts, or what not.

Thank you!

 Melissia wrote:
That's sort of what I'm trying to get Asherian to talk about, because I can't really think of any examples of the sort of thing he's mentioning aside from very creepy and uncomfortable gak like a male character offering a female character favors for sex, or rape threats, or uncomfortable creepy catcalls, or uncomfortable creepy undesired flirts, or what not.

What about a situation where the PC encounters a woman who is mistrustful of them if they are male, but more accepting and willing to cooperate were they female?

I guess? But then that can easily be done very creepily or very obnoxiously (especially if the writer has anti-feminist vibes), which describes two of the three examples of that I can remember off the top of my head (creepy in that one references rape, obnoxious in that one had the woman be a straw feminist).

That is good example that can work for either sex without the ickiness. I think I can remember that in one of the games I played.

That would still feel a bit… artificial, though, I think. Especially if the game include a charisma score that should be used for this kind of stuff .

 Melissia wrote:
I guess? But then that can easily be done very creepily or very obnoxiously (especially if the writer has anti-feminist vibes).

Yeah, but any story can serve as a cheap platform for the writer's personal views, be they good or bad. I'm pretty sure it could be done without needing to be overtly creepy or obnoxious.

Side question: Should there not be personalities you find obnoxious in a game? (not that I'm suggesting that the above example SHOULD be an obnoxious one; simply a question in general.)

 daedalus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That's sort of what I'm trying to get Asherian to talk about, because I can't really think of any examples of the sort of thing he's mentioning aside from very creepy and uncomfortable gak like a male character offering a female character favors for sex, or rape threats, or uncomfortable creepy catcalls, or uncomfortable creepy undesired flirts, or what not.

What about a situation where the PC encounters a woman who is mistrustful of them if they are male, but more accepting and willing to cooperate were they female?

Good point

That would still feel a bit… artificial, though, I think. Especially if the game include a charisma score that should be used for this kind of stuff .

Sometimes people don't trust others for their gender. Everyone always thinks I am saying of cat calls. I am thinking more of the lines of different characters react differently.

Some maybe rude, but not all of them. Some will be shy to the other gender. Some people are more comfortable around their gender and some are not.

Different strokes for different people.

That wouldn't be obnoxious that would be quite realistic for a game to portray.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
That would still feel a bit… artificial, though, I think. Especially if the game include a charisma score that should be used for this kind of stuff .

Maybe. It might not be easy to pull it off without feeling forced, but I know people, male and female, for some who dislike their own gender and only associate with the opposite, and others who dislike the opposite and only associate with their own. People are strange and externally inconsistent and have bizarre quirks like that stuff.

 daedalus wrote:
Side question: Should there not be personalities you find obnoxious in a game? (not that I'm suggesting that the above example SHOULD be an obnoxious one; simply a question in general.)

I don't know the answer to that question. I do know that games which have superbly obnoxious characters (FFX and FFXIII spring to mind) I often put down and refuse to play ever again because I can't stand dealing with their crap.



*relives imagination of Lightning punching Hope, and everyone beating the gak out of Tidus*

Side question: Should there not be personalities you find obnoxious in a game? (not that I'm suggesting that the above example SHOULD be an obnoxious one; simply a question in general.)

Of course they can exist. No one is arguing in absolutes. But it's like any other trope: if it happens nearly every time, in gets annoying. Like Melissa said, this happens a good amount in games when you decide to play as a female character. It doesn't have to be so constant unless that is a theme the developer wants to knowingly do.

It's cheap heat: like you know this guy is bad guy because he is cartoony sexist/homophobe/racist. It's a tool, but it shouldn't be a crutch.

 AdeptSister wrote:

Side question: Should there not be personalities you find obnoxious in a game? (not that I'm suggesting that the above example SHOULD be an obnoxious one; simply a question in general.)

Of course they can exist. No one is arguing in absolutes. But it's like any other trope: if it happens nearly every time, in gets annoying. Like Melissa said, this happens a good amount in games when you decide to play as a female character. It doesn't have to be so constant unless that is a theme the developer wants to knowingly do.

It's cheap heat: like you know this guy is bad guy because he is cartoony sexist/homophobe/racist. It's a tool, but it shouldn't be a crutch.

I have said many times it should not be used all the time but it should at least be acknowledged more than it currently is.

I mean cat calling would be extremely useful in a horror game to a set a mood.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I would guess NPC trying to flirt with you or throwing gendered insults at you. That is the only difference I could see that could came from playing a female character.

We can take the 40k world. A very pious man will never be part of the Adeptus Sororitas no matter much he may adore and wish to be a part of them.

In Dune, the Bene Gesserit are an extremely powerful sisterhood that manipulate their universe through religious engineering. They have extraordinary powers including prescience and ancestorial memory. The only way to be a male version of them is if the Bene Gesserit wills it.

In Fallout, being a female gives you seduction opportunities that are otherwise unavailable to the male PC, and vice versa.

A lot of the differences are going to built into the setting. Especially if we want to deviate away from real-life reasons why women are treating differently.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:

Side question: Should there not be personalities you find obnoxious in a game? (not that I'm suggesting that the above example SHOULD be an obnoxious one; simply a question in general.)

Of course they can exist. No one is arguing in absolutes. But it's like any other trope: if it happens nearly every time, in gets annoying. Like Melissa said, this happens a good amount in games when you decide to play as a female character. It doesn't have to be so constant unless that is a theme the developer wants to knowingly do.

It's cheap heat: like you know this guy is bad guy because he is cartoony sexist/homophobe/racist. It's a tool, but it shouldn't be a crutch.

I have said many times it should not be used all the time but it should at least be acknowledged more than it currently is.

I mean cat calling would be extremely useful in a horror game to a set a mood.

The issue is a lot of times the designer doesn't realize it. Or does because of "realism." You have to be careful as a writer or designer.

 AdeptSister wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:

Side question: Should there not be personalities you find obnoxious in a game? (not that I'm suggesting that the above example SHOULD be an obnoxious one; simply a question in general.)

Of course they can exist. No one is arguing in absolutes. But it's like any other trope: if it happens nearly every time, in gets annoying. Like Melissa said, this happens a good amount in games when you decide to play as a female character. It doesn't have to be so constant unless that is a theme the developer wants to knowingly do.

It's cheap heat: like you know this guy is bad guy because he is cartoony sexist/homophobe/racist. It's a tool, but it shouldn't be a crutch.

I have said many times it should not be used all the time but it should at least be acknowledged more than it currently is.

I mean cat calling would be extremely useful in a horror game to a set a mood.

The issue is a lot of times the designer doesn't realize it. Or does because of "realism." You have to be careful as a writer or designer.

I agree it is hard to pull it off. It can be distasteful.

But if used properly it can be effective, it can hurt you, and that is the main point to show what it is like to be in someone elses gender.

That could be extremely powerful tool. And could drive down characterization further if the character responds to that criticism or that cat calling.

In my book a character cat callers her, She breaks his nose and almost kills him. Even though they were good friends. She doesn't take no from no one.

And she is not some background character, she is a strong central resilient woman. She is a hard woman, because her father is the captain of the guard, and only had a single daughter, so he treated her like a son. But that doesn't stop her from being drop dead gorgeous, but that is not her character.

She fights against that beauty and she merely is beautiful because she doesn't care what she looks like, she only does things because she wants, she follows orders, and she is a ranger. And no she does not wear skin tight leather, she wears leather, but it is armor.. it is not meant to show off her figure it is meant to protect her from harm.

And yet I have another female who follows a similar vein but is a manipulative jerk. She does what ever she wants and gets it. She doesn't take crap, but she is smart enough to tell how to do certain things.

That is characterization for characters. And I wrote those characters in two days. They are more fleshed out because of my experiences.

Designers often forget that in order to be a writer, you need to experience, you need to see people. Because there are men and woman of every type of personality and have certain ways of doing things.

Characters will evolve into realistic human beings as long as you address societal pressures. You show other women with different experiences. That are not as tough as these other women.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I have said many times it should not be used all the time but it should at least be acknowledged more than it currently is.

.You've also said many times that women shouldn't be included unless these issues are added to the game.

 Melissia wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I have said many times it should not be used all the time but it should at least be acknowledged more than it currently is.

.You've also said many times that women shouldn't be included unless these issues are added to the game.

He also said that there should be equal representation for all genders.

I'm... not sure how to reconcile that.

Ash, the issue is that so many are not careful with that tool. We are not saying to completely remove that tool, just that one needs to be used cautiously.

We mentioned multiple times that the cosmetic option of playing a woman was something that there is a market for. A simple skin is not inherently worse than deeper characterization. Especially with the industry's history of problematic characterizations.