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2014/09/17 00:41:13
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: ^True but you will always be missing a female leading person that a son or daughter will always need a female figure in their life they can identify with.
This is going to depend on the setting I believe.
Actions define a person.
2014/09/17 00:46:47
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: ^True but you will always be missing a female leading person that a son or daughter will always need a female figure in their life they can identify with.
This is going to depend on the setting I believe.
And the character.
But I think you really can't replace certain gender roles with males.
You can't have certain genders play as the loving mother.
It would not work as much as a female playing that role.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 01:23:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: You will never find me an advocate of gender essentialism or other kinds of fundamentalist crap, so no, I don't think that will be missing. A single father can provide a wonderful childhood to their son or daughter, just as a single mother can, or a lesbian or gay couple, or a straight couple. The loving care a parent provides is more important than the parent's gender.
This.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/17 04:48:51
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Jehan-reznor wrote: Lara croft (change it too male and it would have less emotional impact)
Uh? What? Why?
Because she is a girl, yes trope, guys wouldn't care about a guy stranded on an island with no skills, just deal with it (far cry 3).
It is because Lara is a "weak" girl that through her harsh experiences becomes the Tomb raider we all know today.
(One thing about the game that disturbed me was the overly graphic death scenes if Lara died, on another note playing
shadows of the damned most of the mutilated bodies in hell were women? WTF).
Jehan-reznor wrote: Lara croft (change it too male and it would have less emotional impact)
Uh? What? Why?
Because she is a girl, yes trope, guys wouldn't care about a guy stranded on an island with no skills, just deal with it (far cry 3). It is because Lara is a "weak" girl that through her harsh experiences becomes the Tomb raider we all know today. (One thing about the game that disturbed me was the overly graphic death scenes if Lara died, on another note playing shadows of the damned most of the mutilated bodies in hell were women? WTF).
Jehan-reznor wrote: Lara croft (change it too male and it would have less emotional impact)
Uh? What? Why?
Because she is a girl, yes trope, guys wouldn't care about a guy stranded on an island with no skills, just deal with it (far cry 3).
It is because Lara is a "weak" girl that through her harsh experiences becomes the Tomb raider we all know today.
(One thing about the game that disturbed me was the overly graphic death scenes if Lara died, on another note playing
shadows of the damned most of the mutilated bodies in hell were women? WTF).
Frankly, I'd prefer to keep the "gamergate" crap out of this thread. Already had something like four threads on that chaotic, spiteful mess closed, and even after that there's still a thread running in Off Topic. No need to let it infest this thread, too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:07:07
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 05:07:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Frankly, I'd prefer to keep the "gamergate" crap out of this thread. Already had something like four threads on that chaotic, spiteful mess closed, and even after that there's still a thread running in Off Topic.
I know I just merely saying not to post articles to kotaku and polygon. Every other site I am fine.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 05:12:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
So I should post more articles from Kotaku and Polygon. Good to know.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a more serious note, I don't really find your objections to those sites relevant to the discussion at hand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:15:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 05:21:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Frankly, I'd prefer to keep the "gamergate" crap out of this thread. Already had something like four threads on that chaotic, spiteful mess closed, and even after that there's still a thread running in Off Topic. No need to let it infest this thread, too.
I find some of the points she makes valid for this topic.
Melissia wrote: Frankly, I'd prefer to keep the "gamergate" crap out of this thread. Already had something like four threads on that chaotic, spiteful mess closed, and even after that there's still a thread running in Off Topic. No need to let it infest this thread, too.
I find some of the points she makes valid for this topic.
Perhaps it would be better to put them in your own words, such that we can have a discussion and not a link war.
Mn, some of it, yeah. I do not agree with some of the conclusions she's come to a lot of the time, however, and the facts of the matter don't really support her assertion that "gamers don't care about your [...] gender", given the results of scientific studies (one of which is discussed in a link in my signature, in fact) have shown that women gamers are far more likely to be harassed and insulted than men are-- anywhere from seven to nearly a hundred times more likely, in fact, depending on the study. Even the lowest end of that scale is pretty significant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:24:27
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 05:24:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
We don't really need to link to all kinds of pages and people. I mean this thread is mostly about what you (The general you.) think. Not what other people think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:26:01
2014/09/17 05:25:20
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Frankly, I'd prefer to keep the "gamergate" crap out of this thread. Already had something like four threads on that chaotic, spiteful mess closed, and even after that there's still a thread running in Off Topic. No need to let it infest this thread, too.
I find some of the points she makes valid for this topic.
Perhaps it would be better to put them in your own words, such that we can have a discussion and not a link war.
Nah she is not from kotaku, but the article he linked was.
It was original posted on the other thread called gamer gate.
And we all agreed with her.
Mn, some of it, yeah. I do not agree with some of the conclusions she's come to a lot of the time, however, and the facts of the matter don't really support her assertion that "gamers don't care about your [...] gender", given the results of scientific studies have shown that women gamers are far more likely to be harassed and insulted than men are-- anywhere from seven to nearly a hundred times more likely, in fact.
Please fact check that.
Because 75% of all percentages are made up on the spot.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 05:27:31
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:30:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 05:32:11
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Mn, some of it, yeah. I do not agree with some of the conclusions she's come to a lot of the time, however, and the facts of the matter don't really support her assertion that "gamers don't care about your [...] gender", given the results of scientific studies (one of which is discussed in a link in my signature, in fact) have shown that women gamers are far more likely to be harassed and insulted than men are-- anywhere from seven to nearly a hundred times more likely, in fact, depending on the study. Even the lowest end of that scale is pretty significant.
I agree with the harassment, i played a lot of FPS's and how dudes react when there is a girl in the lobby is just frightening. Living in Japan where girls play as much games as guys it is more civil when playing online games.
Melissia wrote: Mn, some of it, yeah. I do not agree with some of the conclusions she's come to a lot of the time, however, and the facts of the matter don't really support her assertion that "gamers don't care about your [...] gender", given the results of scientific studies (one of which is discussed in a link in my signature, in fact) have shown that women gamers are far more likely to be harassed and insulted than men are-- anywhere from seven to nearly a hundred times more likely, in fact, depending on the study. Even the lowest end of that scale is pretty significant.
I agree with the harassment, i played a lot of FPS's and how dudes react when there is a girl in the lobby is just frightening. Living in Japan where girls play as much games as guys it is more civil when playing online games.
The problem though with studies is that they only record certain situations and call it harassment. If I call someone a swear word or a five letter word, and they are my friend, and they are girl thats not harassment.
But I agree it happens I am denying it does, but studies can be wrong, we need to take it with a grain of salt.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 05:47:46
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I take them more seriously than I do an unproven claim that the harassment doesn't happen disproportionately to people with feminine handles and/or voices. Not only does the study mash up with my own personal experience, it's corroborated by multiple other studies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:48:06
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 05:54:11
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: I take them more seriously than I do an unproven claim that the harassment doesn't happen disproportionately to people with feminine handles and/or voices. Not only does the study mash up with my own personal experience, it's corroborated by multiple other studies.
*Sigh*
You know, the last time someone told me that, they were telling me that more males commit crime than women. And had hundreds of 'studies' proving that people like me are responsible for more murders than any other.
I think we should take it with a grain of salt.
But I agree it does happen, its a terrible thing.
Lets go back on topic and talk about the problems in games about how women are misrepresented.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 05:58:15
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: Mn, some of it, yeah. I do not agree with some of the conclusions she's come to a lot of the time, however, and the facts of the matter don't really support her assertion that "gamers don't care about your [...] gender", given the results of scientific studies (one of which is discussed in a link in my signature, in fact) have shown that women gamers are far more likely to be harassed and insulted than men are-- anywhere from seven to nearly a hundred times more likely, in fact, depending on the study. Even the lowest end of that scale is pretty significant.
I agree with the harassment, i played a lot of FPS's and how dudes react when there is a girl in the lobby is just frightening. Living in Japan where girls play as much games as guys it is more civil when playing online games.
The problem though with studies is that they only record certain situations and call it harassment. If I call someone a swear word or a five letter word, and they are my friend, and they are girl thats not harassment.
But I agree it happens I am denying it does, but studies can be wrong, we need to take it with a grain of salt.
Well i can only say what i encountered and it is usual sexual harassment, i got some friend request because they would only play with friends because the lobbies were too toxic.
Look at videos of Msheartattack on ytube to get an idea, she plays with it, but a lot of females would be offended.
Just in case, unless a study is peer-reviewed, it's worth as much as toilet paper.
I could literally make something up and publish it without problems, calling it a "study". I could purposefully mispresent information or I could publish extremely poorly researched information.
That's why each non-reviewed study is utterly worthless: everyone could do it. Peer-Reviews are far from being perfect, fosho, but they are worlds ahead of not peer-reviewed studies.
Apart from that general reminder: in this very case, I find it extremely ironic that Melissa, who uses the "study's" "results" to make broad claims on all video games, links to an article that literally says:
Now, it’s important to remember that this study is reflective of one isolated gaming environment, not of video games as a whole. As the authors note, “Caution should be shown when generalizing the findings of this study to other games or genres.”
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 11:54:44
Jehan-reznor wrote: Well i can only say what i encountered and it is usual sexual harassment, i got some friend request because they would only play with friends because the lobbies were too toxic.
Look at videos of Msheartattack on ytube to get an idea, she plays with it, but a lot of females would be offended.
I know that I've seen numerous examples of those as well... not just women, but men who found the harassment to be sucking the life and fun out of the game.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 12:22:07
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Sigvatr wrote: Just in case, unless a study is peer-reviewed, it's worth as much as toilet paper.
I could literally make something up and publish it without problems, calling it a "study". I could purposefully mispresent information or I could publish extremely poorly researched information.
That's why each non-reviewed study is utterly worthless: everyone could do it. Peer-Reviews are far from being perfect, fosho, but they are worlds ahead of not peer-reviewed studies.
Apart from that general reminder: in this very case, I find it extremely ironic that Melissa, who uses the "study's" "results" to make broad claims on all video games, links to an article that literally says:
Now, it’s important to remember that this study is reflective of one isolated gaming environment, not of video games as a whole. As the authors note, “Caution should be shown when generalizing the findings of this study to other games or genres.”
OH dear god someone in this thread did not read everything.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 12:35:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
*Sigh* But we all agree that gaming harassment happens, right? And a it can be directed at women in a noxious manner? That it can get hostile right quick. Multiple sources have documented it, talked about and affirmed it. While I understand that you don't think the "studies" are valid (though they mirror what a lot of people have witnessed), we all agreed that women can experience totally environment (which can full of sexualized language) than guys do. Right? Because if we are not starting with a similar view of reality, then where do we go from here?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 12:41:57
2014/09/17 12:37:28
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: *Sigh* But we all agree that gaming harassment happens, right? And a it can be directed at women in a noxious manner? That it can get hostile right quick. Multiple sources have documented it, talked about and affirmed it. While I understand that you don't think the "studies" are valid (though they mirror what a lot of people have witnessed), we all agreed that women can experience totally environment (which can full of sexualized language) than guys do. Right? Because if we are not starting with a similar view of reality, then where do we go from here?
It f
I have said that.
I agree it happens. I've said that twice.
Women in games are not treated equally but then again so are minorities. If you say you are black you will get attacked by others.
If you say your australia like I Have, a bunch of Scots will attack you because their team lost to you in rugby.
I think harassment happens to everyone, but more to women and people of different skin colors.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 12:47:29
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Women in games are not treated equally but then again so are minorities. If you say you are black you will get attacked by others.
That's not really a defense of gamer culture, so much as it is a condemnation of it.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 12:48:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Women in games are not treated equally but then again so are minorities. If you say you are black you will get attacked by others.
That's not really a defense of gamer culture, so much as it is a condemnation of it.
I'm being neutral in this instance.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/17 12:53:59
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Saying "gamers are not only misogynist, but also racist" is not neutral.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/17 13:00:17
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
So, back on topic, how does a game designers work to create a game that is more inclusive? The simplest and most common solution seems avoid having characters all together (ala most puzzle games). We also have mentioned customizable PCs.
But if you want to have a story with women characters, what are the pitfalls one should be cautious of?
