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 AdeptSister wrote:
I thought so Ash, but I wished to confirm.

So, back on topic, how does a game designers work to create a game that is more inclusive? The simplest and most common solution seems avoid having characters all together (ala most puzzle games). We also have mentioned customizable PCs.

But if you want to have a story with women characters, what are the pitfalls one should be cautious of?

Just using her as eye candy and having her only impact on the game being her getting kidnapped would be two to start at.

If she does get kidnapped, have her escape on her own if it is something that a male character (even the player character) could do.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
I thought so Ash, but I wished to confirm.

So, back on topic, how does a game designers work to create a game that is more inclusive? The simplest and most common solution seems avoid having characters all together (ala most puzzle games). We also have mentioned customizable PCs.

But if you want to have a story with women characters, what are the pitfalls one should be cautious of?

Just using her as eye candy and having her only impact on the game being her getting kidnapped would be two to start at.

If she does get kidnapped, have her escape on her own if it is something that a male character (even the player character) could do.

shouldn't the first step be to define the game?

MMO's are great about having fully customizable PC's and all characters get to do everything in the game.

with MMO's you can RP what ever you want, and there are probably mods to help you out.

If it's a story driven game, first tell the story, then work out if sex matters. and removing it entirely by going first person is a great compromise. Because now it's through the eyes of the one playing the game. No programming for a fully customizable avatar.

 AdeptSister wrote:
So, back on topic, how does a game designers work to create a game that is more inclusive?

The best way is by not starting with the "male as default" assumption. This is difficult for many male writers, especially since some publishers push for it to be company policy.

If you don't trust your own decisions regarding gender inclusion, simply flipping a coin to determine what a character's gender is after determining all other aspects of the character will allow a wide variety of characters to be created while not pigeonholing in to stereotypical people based off of their gender (or race, for that matter). It isn't an ideal solution, but it is an unbiased one, and can produce some very interesting results.

 AdeptSister wrote:
The simplest and most common solution seems avoid having characters all together

Avoiding a problem is not really a solution, so much as it is refusing to solve the problem in the first place. This is usually fine for puzzle games, but not really necessarily fine for other genres.

 AdeptSister wrote:
We also have mentioned customizable PCs.

For most games, customizable PCs are the real solution here. Even in RPGs, it's generally better that way.

 AdeptSister wrote:
But if you want to have a story with women characters, what are the pitfalls one should be cautious of?

One pitfall is the story focusing on the fact that she is a woman to the exclusion of all other traits. Women are human beings first and foremost-- and as such, women characters shouldn't be pidgeonholed in to "womens issues", especially not to the point of excluding women from having any other concerns. This is especially true if you define "womens issues" narrowly like many people do.


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sirlynchmob wrote:
If it's a story driven game, first tell the story, then work out if sex matters. and removing it entirely by going first person is a great compromise.

Most first person games do not "remove sex entirely", because voice acting, hand shape/texture/hairiness all give away gender even within first person view-- and this is doubly true if NPCs refer to the player using gendered pronouns. Removing these things, or trying to make them gender-neutral, can be tricky in the best of times.

 Melissia wrote:
Saying "gamers are not only misogynist, but also racist" is not neutral.

If gamers insult eveyone equally then how is it not neutral?

When I play dota and some black feminist woman floods the voice chat with her political views I am going to respond approriately:



What did you expect?

I don't care about your race, sex, sexuality or political views when I need someone to buy wards. If you bring those things into the match the best you can hope for is being muted.

 illuknisaa wrote:
If gamers insult eveyone equally then how is it not neutral?

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Apart from that general reminder: in this very case, I find it extremely ironic that Melissa, who uses the "study's" "results" to make broad claims on all video games, links to an article that literally says:

Now, it’s important to remember that this study is reflective of one isolated gaming environment, not of video games as a whole. As the authors note, “Caution should be shown when generalizing the findings of this study to other games or genres.”

So, which games are better and which games are worse?
Also, I was a bit disappointed that even though people systematically mistake me for a woman on the phone when they do not know me, the same does not happen on voice chat, apparently. I would have liked it better the other way around, for sure!


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 Melissia wrote:
Avoiding a problem is not really a solution, so much as it is refusing to solve the problem in the first place. This is usually fine for puzzle games, but not really necessarily fine for other genres.

And even within puzzle games, you can get pretty nice female characters. Have you played Ittle Dew? I quite enjoyed it .

 Melissia wrote:
Most first person games do not "remove sex entirely", because voice acting, hand shape/texture/hairiness all give away gender even within first person view-- and this is doubly true if NPCs refer to the player using gendered pronouns. Removing these things, or trying to make them gender-neutral, can be tricky in the best of times.

A bunch of FPS only shows the weapon, not the hand. And dialogues are quite unnecessary for old-school shooters. There is still the issue of voice acting. Not sure how to deal with it.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Edited this away because it will get me banned

Why the hell write it in the first place, then? Also, did this very theoretical situation you described actually happen even once in history ?

Also, "I hate everyone" doesn't make you suddenly not be a bigot. Being homophobic as well as racist and misogynistic doesn't somehow cause all of them to cancel out, that's just plain nonsense.

 Melissia wrote:
Also, "I hate everyone" doesn't make you suddenly not be a bigot. Being homophobic as well as racist and misogynistic doesn't somehow cause all of them to cancel out, that's just plain nonsense.

Not really;

If someone said "I hate everyone", he actually can't be a racist, bigot, or homophobic; Racism is hatred based on skin color, bigotry is based on gender, and Homophobism is based on sexual orientation. If you hate everyone equally, it doesn't matter what that person's gender, skin color, or sexual preference is.

Mind you, it's still a stupid way to live.

 Slarg232 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also, "I hate everyone" doesn't make you suddenly not be a bigot. Being homophobic as well as racist and misogynistic doesn't somehow cause all of them to cancel out, that's just plain nonsense.

Not really;

If someone said "I hate everyone", he actually can't be a racist, bigot, or homophobic; Racism is hatred based on skin color, bigotry is based on gender, and Homophobism is based on sexual orientation. If you hate everyone equally, it doesn't matter what that person's gender, skin color, or sexual preference is.

Mind you, it's still a stupid way to live.

Nobody lives that way though. It applies to exactly 0 people. The only people who say this are teenagers and groty neckbeards who feel clever because they ran into the word "misanthrope", in an online dictionary and want to avoid facing their own social shortcomings.

 Chongara wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also, "I hate everyone" doesn't make you suddenly not be a bigot. Being homophobic as well as racist and misogynistic doesn't somehow cause all of them to cancel out, that's just plain nonsense.

Not really;

If someone said "I hate everyone", he actually can't be a racist, bigot, or homophobic; Racism is hatred based on skin color, bigotry is based on gender, and Homophobism is based on sexual orientation. If you hate everyone equally, it doesn't matter what that person's gender, skin color, or sexual preference is.

Mind you, it's still a stupid way to live.

Nobody lives that way though. It applies to exactly 0 people. The only people who say this are teenagers and groty neckbeards who feel clever because they ran into the word "misanthrope", in an online dictionary and want to avoid facing their own social shortcomings.

You know this for a fact?

 Melissia wrote:
Also, "I hate everyone" doesn't make you suddenly not be a bigot. Being homophobic as well as racist and misogynistic doesn't somehow cause all of them to cancel out, that's just plain nonsense.

Yeah, it just kind of makes you mean-spirited, even MORE of a bigot (since you're effectively bigoted against humanity) and perhaps even a little pitiable, if anyone could stand to pity such a person.

Such a person would also not be posting online, and probably hide away in a cabin somewhere far away from people.

 Melissia wrote:
Saying "gamers are not only misogynist, but also racist" is not neutral.

O.o I didn't say they acted racist. Not alll gamers are racist or sexist.

There are some that are. People are treated poorly in general.


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 AdeptSister wrote:
I thought so Ash, but I wished to confirm.

So, back on topic, how does a game designers work to create a game that is more inclusive? The simplest and most common solution seems avoid having characters all together (ala most puzzle games). We also have mentioned customizable PCs.

But if you want to have a story with women characters, what are the pitfalls one should be cautious of?

The work by including several characters. They make specific events that people can relate to.

That is actually quite false. Puzzle games are very interesting market, it is not something you play to get your mind off things. IT is probably one of the hardest games in general to create. Due to how complicated programming for the programmer can be for a puzzle game.

One should be aware of the following:

Making them appear weak
Making them foreign to audience.
Making them to inhuman
Making them too perfect or too flawed. (Yes that is possible)
Making them robotic will disconnect the audience

Something that should be done:
flowing dialogue,
The character should be relatable by making them real,
Having emotion and moments of strength and weakness can make for a stronger character, But you don't always have to have moments of weakness to make the character better.
I personally would like to say that the best way to do these things is to storyboard, but people here want to hear what actually can change it, but acting out certain scenes might make that scene stronger,
Criticism is something that needs to be looked at.

I personally also think that in order for the character to be meaningful it can't be fully customizable, the face cannot change but their choices can be chosen. If you want to see progression you need to have a triple A title where the female characters are not sexy looking but are strong and confident. Similar vein like Lara Croft but is a fantasy character, who is gender neutral.

Oh gods, 30 new pages ... what did I miss?

Asherian Command wrote:I personally also think that in order for the character to be meaningful it can't be fully customizable, the face cannot change but their choices can be chosen.

I never really understood what supposedly makes a character less meaningful just because you influence his or her looks. Isn't this an admission of stigmatisation?

Unless the setting enforces specific limitations, I don't see why the player has to be handicapped this way. Though I suppose it might just be a matter of preferences - some people might enjoy premade characters, whilst personally I believe it reduces the level of participation and how you can influence your story experience.

For clarification Ash, I was not saying that puzzle games were simple, but you can avoid the issue in that genre by avoiding characterization entirely (Like Melissa, stated ignoring the problem).

And to be fair, you can have sexy characters. Sexy and sexualized are not the same thing. It comes down to the character's agency. Bayonetta IMO does this well.

 Lynata wrote:
Oh gods, 30 new pages ... what did I miss?

Asherian Command wrote:I personally also think that in order for the character to be meaningful it can't be fully customizable, the face cannot change but their choices can be chosen.

I never really understood what supposedly makes a character less meaningful just because you influence his or her looks. Isn't this an admission of stigmatisation?

Unless the setting enforces specific limitations, I don't see why the player has to be handicapped this way. Though I suppose it might just be a matter of preferences - some people might enjoy premade characters, whilst personally I believe it reduces the level of participation and how you can influence your story experience.

I think premade characters have a lot of thought put into them unlike a player character.

Shepherd could be considered one.


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 AdeptSister wrote:
For clarification Ash, I was not saying that puzzle games were simple, but you can avoid the issue in that genre by avoiding characterization entirely (Like Melissa, stated ignoring the problem).

And to be fair, you can have sexy characters. Sexy and sexualized are not the same thing. It comes down to the character's agency. Bayonetta IMO does this well.

Agreed. Just oversexualized characters ar estupid.

You have a harder time fully realizing a unlimited number of characters then you would one. The trick is that the bar is very low. Even non customized characters get away with very little characterization. Then there is how different kinds of customization have different effects on characterization. Visual customization is a very minor impact on a character well the ability to make choices in the story line has a huge impact on the characterization.

Asherian Command wrote:Shepherd could be considered one.

Hmm? Because you don't get to decide his/her career and species?

Maybe we're just talking past each other - to clarify, when I'm referring to character customisation, I generally just mean gender and appearance. More factors (species, backgrounds, personality traits, preferences) are always nice, but not what I'd consider a minimum for a character to classify as "custom/customised".

When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

 Lynata wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Shepherd could be considered one.

Hmm? Because you don't get to decide his/her career and species?

Maybe we're just talking past each other - to clarify, when I'm referring to character customisation, I generally just mean gender and appearance. More factors (species, backgrounds, personality traits, preferences) are always nice, but not what I'd consider a minimum for a character to classify as "custom/customised".

When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

Shepherds entire personality is determined by the designer. Thats my bit.

in an mmo not as much.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Shepherd could be considered one.

Hmm? Because you don't get to decide his/her career and species?

Maybe we're just talking past each other - to clarify, when I'm referring to character customisation, I generally just mean gender and appearance. More factors (species, backgrounds, personality traits, preferences) are always nice, but not what I'd consider a minimum for a character to classify as "custom/customised".

When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

Shepherds entire personality is determined by the designer. Thats my bit.

in an mmo not as much.

No it's not. Shepherds personality is picked by the player. Are they snarky, serous, crazy, it's more the payers choice.

nomotog wrote:


No it's not. Shepherds personality is picked by the player. Are they snarky, serous, crazy, it's more the payers choice.

The player takes a path that is strictly pre-determined by the designer. Shepherd, as a character, is a blank slate that's getting filled by the player's choices. He (the player) takes "his" actions as he cannot choose to do any themselves.

...and then there are terrible plot holes. Kai Leng says hi.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:


No it's not. Shepherds personality is picked by the player. Are they snarky, serous, crazy, it's more the payers choice.

The player takes a path that is strictly pre-determined by the designer. Shepherd, as a character, is a blank slate that's getting filled by the player's choices. He (the player) takes "his" actions as he cannot choose to do any themselves.

Choosing from three prefabricated responses to a sentence isn't the same as developing a personality?!

Heh. Imagine if real life were like that.

 Lynata wrote:
When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

+9001 to this post. Quite frankly, any character I create is more imaginative than game devs are going to write ninety nine percent of the time anyway.

 daedalus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:


No it's not. Shepherds personality is picked by the player. Are they snarky, serous, crazy, it's more the payers choice.

The player takes a path that is strictly pre-determined by the designer. Shepherd, as a character, is a blank slate that's getting filled by the player's choices. He (the player) takes "his" actions as he cannot choose to do any themselves.

Choosing from three prefabricated responses to a sentence isn't the same as developing a personality?!

Heh. Imagine if real life were like that.

It's more then just 3 choices and that's it. It's often 3 or more choices about everything. That gives you a lot of chances to bend and shape Shepard into a different character. Not to mention the subtext you attach to each and every choice. You know why your Shepard did this or did that and that informs their personality in addition to the direct action they took.

nomotog wrote:

It's more then just 3 choices and that's it. It's often 3 or more choices about everything. That gives you a lot of chances to bend and shape Shepard into a different character. Not to mention the subtext you attach to each and every choice. You know why your Shepard did this or did that and that informs their personality in addition to the direct action they took.

I guess. All I can think of is the number of times I've thought to myself, "man, all these choices aren't what I'd say here."

Of course, only one choice for what gets said isn't exactly better. I guess I'm just saying that between three responses generally consisting of something similar to "donkey-cave/snarky", "uptight/serious", and "angry/crazy", there's only so many personalities you can express, no matter how many times you get to choose from them.

But then, as this thread continues, I'm beginning to wonder if I actually even LIKE games.

 daedalus wrote:

nomotog wrote:

It's more then just 3 choices and that's it. It's often 3 or more choices about everything. That gives you a lot of chances to bend and shape Shepard into a different character. Not to mention the subtext you attach to each and every choice. You know why your Shepard did this or did that and that informs their personality in addition to the direct action they took.

I guess. All I can think of is the number of times I've thought to myself, "man, all these choices aren't what I'd say here."

Of course, only one choice for what gets said isn't exactly better. I guess I'm just saying that between three responses generally consisting of something similar to "donkey-cave/snarky", "uptight/serious", and "angry/crazy", there's only so many personalities you can express, no matter how many times you get to choose from them.

But then, as this thread continues, I'm beginning to wonder if I actually even LIKE games.

I always had a response that covered what I was thinking, but I may have been the odd one out in that case. It wasn't really a choice of donkey-cave, uptight, angry. The smart thing about mass effect is that your responses mostly boiled down to agree, disagree, in between, or odd ball.

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

+9001 to this post. Quite frankly, any character I create is more imaginative than game devs are going to write ninety nine percent of the time anyway.

You still cannot go beyond what the designers allowed you to do anyway, though. But that said, I can spend literally hours designing a character in some games!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

+9001 to this post. Quite frankly, any character I create is more imaginative than game devs are going to write ninety nine percent of the time anyway.

You still cannot go beyond what the designers allowed you to do anyway, though. But that said, I can spend literally hours designing a character in some games!

When City of Heroes/Villain shut down, someone released the chargen system with mods that unlocked all items for everyone.

For many people, that was enough to continue providing hundreds of hours of play.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

+9001 to this post. Quite frankly, any character I create is more imaginative than game devs are going to write ninety nine percent of the time anyway.

You still cannot go beyond what the designers allowed you to do anyway, though. But that said, I can spend literally hours designing a character in some games!

This is important. Anything that a user generates with a set of tools as narrowly defined as a character generator, owes a non-trivial portion of the credit to the designers. Everything the player creates is possible because a designer gave thought to it being available. Trying to claim oneself above, beyond and superior to the creators by virtue of how you've assembled their assets is hyperbolic self-aggrandizing.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
When I'm looking at the average premade character's appearance, and compare them to the ones I create ... I think I'm going out on a limb and say that I do put more thought into them than the designers of Generic White Male Space Marine #417.

+9001 to this post. Quite frankly, any character I create is more imaginative than game devs are going to write ninety nine percent of the time anyway.

You still cannot go beyond what the designers allowed you to do anyway, though. But that said, I can spend literally hours designing a character in some games!

In real life, you are stuck wearing the clothes at market, but that doesn't invalidate the choice you have in your chosen style. The artist may have added in that cute hair option, but they didn't really picture you pairing it with those shoes and that top.

 Melissia wrote:
When City of Heroes/Villain shut down, someone released the chargen system with mods that unlocked all items for everyone.

If that happens with DCUO… woah! The possibilities .

 Chongara wrote:
This is important. Anything that a user generates with a set of tools as narrowly defined as a character generate, owes a non-trivial portion of the credit to the designers. Everything the player creates is possible because a designer gave thought to it being available. Trying to claim oneself above, beyond and superior to the creators by virtue of how you've assembled their assets is hyperbolic self-aggrandizing.

Indeed. If the designer wanted you to play a generic white male, he or she would have only given you the option to play a generic white male. You can still be creative, and make things the designer have not expected, due to the high possible number of combinations possibles. Just like you can make tons of very different words with only 26 letters .