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Well lets be clear here. The characters MK is known for, and the ones who have defined the franchise, are all men. Luke Cage, Raiden, Sub Zero, Scorpion. I don't play MK and these names I know.

The women? I know Sonya, but only because her name was brought up in this thread. Their entire characters could be completely redesigned, and so what? They aren't the characters the franchise is known for. Ultimately, any whining about a change in how they are presented would just be spilled milk.

Now, DOA is the series that would have the real problem as DOA is the opposite. Kasumi, Ayane, Tina. The women are the characters everyone knows from DOA and a major par of DOA for better or worse is the jiggly bits of those women. That's the franchise with the real image problem

I wouldn't say that. Kitana appears to be pretty well integrated into the franchise as well. Considering how she's

* Been in every game

* Been in that gakky DC spin off

* Been in both movies.

So no, the characters who defined the franchise were not all men. They were mostly men.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The problem there is that it's an established series with an established theme.

The new Sonya top shows clearly that they are moving toward more stupid-sexy, not less. They could introduce new characters or evolve the present characters in a different way, they choose not to.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:And I mentioned both non-sexual nudity in children's movie, and very sexual nudity on one of the most successful TV-show.

An old children's movie. The GDR had no problem with non-sexual nudity in art as well (there was a rather popular live-action children's movie that included what would nowadays be called paedophilia just because the actors were 16 years old), but times have changed - as I said I suspect due to influence from the US entertainment industry, which you cannot easily dismiss. Nowadays, who would dare to do some of the stuff that Monty Python did decades ago? Hell, they had full frontal nudity in Life of Brian. If you do that today it automatically gets an R-rating, and commonly uses it for shock value, whereas with violence it's the opposite development (they used to ban games like Wolfenstein, nowadays you'd get laughed out of the rating agency if you proposed that).

That is a change in culture. And whereas we arguably became more focused on violence, I'd say Japan becomes/became more focused on sex.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Pokemon, and apparently the first game, is all about forcing captive, tamed animals to fight for the enjoyment of their owners. How casual is this violence, to you?

I thought we were talking about the casual representation of extreme violence.
You know, blood splatter, blowing people's heads off.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I do not think I would have been even allowed to come with a knife in my high school.

It used to be the same in Germany. Used to.
I think it's still against the rules, but rules =/= reality, and we live in an age where the teachers are afraid of their own students - in part because gakky parents will raise a fuss if the teachers actually try to enforce something, leading to a climate of "live and let live" where even troublesome kids are left alone on the basis of them not wanting to get educated, and it being too problematic to try and get to them. It's cumulative effects like these that change the fabric of future society.

LordofHats wrote:That's the franchise with the real image problem

But ... but ... the physics engine!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are those action girls you speak of kunoichi? Or more specifically, the typical pop-culture perception of a kunoichi?

I wrote
“I mean, even the female ninja from Alien versus Ninja looks extremely tame compared to those pictures . Actually, remove the high heels, and I think she is basically what Asiraya was looking for…”
…
I guess that means yes, some of them are kunoichi, because as far as I can tell, kunoichi is just a more esoteric way to say female ninja.

True. However, when you type kunoichi into google, you do not get tame. You get quite the opposite.
In fact, some of the girls in DoA are meant to be kunoichi.

I went ahead and typed it into Google. It's not like you said. Sure you get some designs that are more sexual they the should be, but you also get a fair number of designs that are practically practical. You don't get anything as bad as MK. In fact you don't see MK. Are you sure they are meant to be a kunoichi?

Pretty sure.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NINJA

Look under video games, do a search for Mortal Kombat.
Kitana, Mileena and Jade are on the list. They are definitely kunoichi (or female ninja).
Or at least ninja inspired.

I really think DOA image is really affecting people taking it seriously. The later Soul Calibers had this issue as well. This happens a lot with fighting games. Remember Orchid's finisher from the original KI? *sigh* It stinks when it feel likes you have to apologize for games aesthetics to outsiders.

Its not in all fighting games as well though. I mentioned before, Street Fighter has a variety of female body types and personalities and the sexualization is not as rampant.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NINJA

Look under video games, do a search for Mortal Kombat.
Kitana, Mileena and Jade are on the list. They are definitely kunoichi (or female ninja).
Or at least ninja inspired.

Not according to that link either.

Technically, only Scorpion is a ninja. Sub-Zero, Noob Saibot, Cyrax, Sektor, Smoke, and Frost all belong to the Lin Kuei. Jade is Kitana's bodyguard, who is a princess, and Mileena is a clone, both of whom would likely be trained in some form of self defense. Rain, also royalty, is also likely trained in self defense and Reptile is another bodyguard. Ermac might count just from the sheer amount of souls he is made with, probability might dictate one of them was a ninja in life. Chameleon may too, I don't know his backstory well, but Khameleon is just a warrior as well. Most of them are made fairly moot anyways, as only Scorpion and the Lin Kuei are from Earthrealm anyways.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Kitana appears to be pretty well integrated into the franchise as well.

Yeah, and Sagat appeared in the first Street Fighter and every subsequent one, and is frequent in cross media productions, but is no where near as identifiable in the franchise as Chun Li (who didn't appear until Street Fighter 2), or even Zangief. Hell I've seen more references to E Honda than I have to Sagat. Characters who define a franchise define it not just because they're popular in that franchise but because they become popular in a larger culture (hence, the regular Hadoken references in thing not about Street Fighter).




The characters Mortal Kombat is best known for are far and away Scorpion, Sub-Zero, and Raiden. Just because Kitana appears in other stuff concerning the franchise and every game doesn't make her as iconic as the characters the series is actually known for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
But ... but ... the physics engine!

nomotog wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NINJA

Look under video games, do a search for Mortal Kombat.
Kitana, Mileena and Jade are on the list. They are definitely kunoichi (or female ninja).
Or at least ninja inspired.

Not according to that link either.

Technically, only Scorpion is a ninja. Sub-Zero, Noob Saibot, Cyrax, Sektor, Smoke, and Frost all belong to the Lin Kuei. Jade is Kitana's bodyguard, who is a princess, and Mileena is a clone, both of whom would likely be trained in some form of self defense. Rain, also royalty, is also likely trained in self defense and Reptile is another bodyguard. Ermac might count just from the sheer amount of souls he is made with, probability might dictate one of them was a ninja in life. Chameleon may too, I don't know his backstory well, but Khameleon is just a warrior as well. Most of them are made fairly moot anyways, as only Scorpion and the Lin Kuei are from Earthrealm anyways.

Ninja inspired was the key phrase.
Note that they had to go into technicalities.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NINJA

Look under video games, do a search for Mortal Kombat.
Kitana, Mileena and Jade are on the list. They are definitely kunoichi (or female ninja).
Or at least ninja inspired.

Not according to that link either.

Technically, only Scorpion is a ninja. Sub-Zero, Noob Saibot, Cyrax, Sektor, Smoke, and Frost all belong to the Lin Kuei. Jade is Kitana's bodyguard, who is a princess, and Mileena is a clone, both of whom would likely be trained in some form of self defense. Rain, also royalty, is also likely trained in self defense and Reptile is another bodyguard. Ermac might count just from the sheer amount of souls he is made with, probability might dictate one of them was a ninja in life. Chameleon may too, I don't know his backstory well, but Khameleon is just a warrior as well. Most of them are made fairly moot anyways, as only Scorpion and the Lin Kuei are from Earthrealm anyways.

Ninja inspired was the key phrase.
Note that they had to go into technicalities.

You know, still no. Nothing about Kitana, Mileena or Jade looks ninja inspired. If anything I think they are more inspired by harem and slave girl costumes. At least the way they are designed now that is. Looking at some of the concept art shows they could have been done a lot differently.

If anything I'd say Mortal Combat as a general problem with creating memorable characters, both visually and otherwise. I'm looking through the character list now and I'm just like "who did the design work for this series? They need to be fired."

More than other games, fighting games rely heavily on visceral and fluid visual design, because how the characters look and move is a big deal in a game where that's almost everything you see.

Soul Calibur, Tekken, Street Fighter, and Dead or Alive are filled with characters with cool designs and memorable styles with a littering of variety between the characters. Hell we haven't seen a Dark Stalkers game since 1997 and people still know who Morrigan and Felicia are. I look through these Mortal Kombat characters and I can't help but feel that they just keep cloning the same four or five over and over again creating a largely homogenous bunch of weirdos

 Lynata wrote:
An old children's movie.

Last one was released in 2012. How is movie released in 2012 old? What happened in those two years that it is not relevant anymore?
The change on violent video games are just about how video games a perceived as a medium. There was such a change for movies, but it happened way before. Just what happens when a new medium develop.

 Lynata wrote:
I thought we were talking about the casual representation of extreme violence.
You know, blood splatter, blowing people's heads off.

Well, I may have mistook you when you said you were not speaking about extreme examples but about more casual violence. I have plenty of examples of extreme violence from Japan.

 Lynata wrote:
Used to.

I am pretty sure it is still the case in my middle and high school. Of course, some neighborhood are different, but this has pretty much always be the case, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AdeptSister wrote:
Its not in all fighting games as well though. I mentioned before, Street Fighter has a variety of female body types and personalities and the sexualization is not as rampant.

The first Soul Calibur too. Remember that awesome alternate outfit for Ivy? Should have been the default, instead of never showing up again.

 LordofHats wrote:
Hell we haven't seen a Dark Stalkers game since 1997 and people still know who Morrigan and Felicia are.

I have no idea what this game is or what those characters are .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I have no idea what this game is or what those characters are .

We forgive you your trespasses

Morrigan;



Is the more famous of the two (She has appeared in pretty much every Capcom cross over fighting game). Heavily featured in the initial Capcom vs Marvel 3 trailer where she fought Iron Man.




Not to mention being a massive debate over objectification/empowerment in her own right.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I have no idea what this game is or what those characters are .

We forgive you your trespasses

Morrigan;

Spoiler:

Is the more famous of the two (She has appeared in pretty much every Capcom cross over fighting game). Heavily featured in the initial Capcom vs Marvel 3 trailer where she fought Iron Man.




Not to mention being a massive debate over objectification/empowerment in her own right.

Isn't she a demon though? Doesn't that sort of... Defeat the objectification debate?

I mean she is a demon a succubus by the looks of it.

I Would assume she is like that on purpose.

Also team ninja is abosolutely notorious for the breast physics. And its really funny I think they have female coworkers, and they still don't understand how breasts work XD.

But still breast physics should just die.

Yeah, she's a succubus.

According to the Darkstalkers wiki, there's a fun fact about succubi:

Their blood and saliva has a powerful lustful effect. A human would instantly die the moment they come in contact with it. Their body odor causes their blood vessels to dilate and causes a large amount of perspiration. If a man is confronted by a succubus, unless they have a very strong mind, they would instantly be under her spell.

http://darkstalkers.wikia.com/wiki/Lilith

 Asherian Command wrote:
Isn't she a demon though? Doesn't that sort of... Defeat the objectification debate?

She looks very much vampire to me, with all the bat stuff. Sexy vampire are so original . And no, it does not, not until we get lots of incubus/sexy male demons…

 Asherian Command wrote:
Isn't she a demon though? Doesn't that sort of... Defeat the objectification debate?

She's some kind of succubus vampire thing. The debate is grounded in the larger sex war in feminism (sex positive feminism vs sex negative feminism). Depending on where you fall, Morrigan can be seen as an early predecessor to Bayonetta, a character wearing her sexuality on her sleeve and who is more intimidating/powerful, not less so, because of it. Alternatively we all know why her designers dressed her in that leotard


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Isn't she a demon though? Doesn't that sort of... Defeat the objectification debate?

She looks very much vampire to me, with all the bat stuff. Sexy vampire are so original . And no, it does not, not until we get lots of incubus/sexy male demons…

And thus in lays another problem. While other members of Morrigan's species are in the lore of Dark Stalkers, namely her father, none of them appear as playable characters until Lilith, and Lilith is just 1/3 of Morrigan's natural born power separated into another person that fuses back into her sister at the end of the story And Lilith is just as skimpy as Morrigan.

It doesn't help that Dark Stalkers was alive with greatly designed characters but only two women appear in the first game of the series. Morrigan and Felicia;

 LordofHats wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Isn't she a demon though? Doesn't that sort of... Defeat the objectification debate?

She's some kind of succubus vampire thing. The debate is grounded in the larger sex war in feminism (sex positive feminism vs sex negative feminism). Depending on where you fall, Morrigan can be seen as an early predecessor to Bayonetta, a character wearing her sexuality on her sleeve and who is more intimidating/powerful, not less so, because of it. Alternatively we all know why her designers dressed her in that leotard

You could also find problems with the idea that in order to be sexy you have to be evil. You know a literal demonizing of sexy women. Though demon doesn't really seem to hold the old position of everything bad and evil. Now I find demons are played as more complex charters. You don't find as many objectively evil demons these days.

 LordofHats wrote:
The debate is grounded in the larger sex war in feminism (sex positive feminism vs sex negative feminism).

Problem ain't about sex, problem is about double standard.
How would you classify the many people that call for less sexualized female characters and more sexualized male character with your duality?

 LordofHats wrote:
And thus in lays another problem. While other members of Morrigan's species are in the lore of Dark Stalkers, namely her father, none of them appear as playable characters until Lilith, and Lilith is just 1/3 of Morrigan's natural born power separated into another person that fuses back into her sister at the end of the story And Lilith is just as skimpy as Morrigan.

I am so surprised! How unexpected!

nomotog wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Isn't she a demon though? Doesn't that sort of... Defeat the objectification debate?

She's some kind of succubus vampire thing. The debate is grounded in the larger sex war in feminism (sex positive feminism vs sex negative feminism). Depending on where you fall, Morrigan can be seen as an early predecessor to Bayonetta, a character wearing her sexuality on her sleeve and who is more intimidating/powerful, not less so, because of it. Alternatively we all know why her designers dressed her in that leotard

You could also find problems with the idea that in order to be sexy you have to be evil. You know a literal demonizing of sexy women. Though demon doesn't really seem to hold the old position of everything bad and evil. Now I find demons are played as more complex charters. You don't find as many objectively evil demons these days.

Actually, Morrigan isn't evil. She's portrayed as being quite pleasant, really, in an anti-hero demon sort of way.
Well, barring the whole deadly bodily fluids thing.

nomotog wrote:
You could also find problems with the idea that in order to be sexy you have to be evil.

But that's one of the things that helped Morrigan stand out early on. She wasn't evil (despite being a 'demon'). She was rather good natured, playful, and a bit of a prankster but not evil. Her story kicks off because she's a rebellious princess who is 300 years old and bored out of her mind in her father's stingy castle XD Hell she's opposite of evil demon woman and the typical video game princess at the same time.

Now the 'demon women are sexy' is a common stereotype in line with Evil is Sexy, but Morrigan kind of turns that idea on its head. Though she now defines Dark Stalkers, only the profile of her face is featured on the original box art when the first game released (Felicia was more featured than Morrigan in early promotional material). Morrigan broke out as hugely popular, to the point that she is the sole member of her franchise to appear in every crossover fighting game (Felicia was not in Capcom vs SNK 2).

And Cthulu beat me to it.

Problem ain't about sex, problem is about double standard.

I'm not saying it is. This is a debate in feminism itself about sex and the female form and what direction women should go in with respect to achieving equality. A sex positive feminist would say there's nothing wrong with displaying the female form vicariously, and would likely have a much stricter idea of objectification. In this way characters like Morrigan and Bayonetta, who are openly sexual and portrayed in a positive manner, aren't negative depictions of women.

 LordofHats wrote:
This is a debate in feminism itself about sex and the female form and what direction women should go in with respect to achieving equality.

You only get equality when you treat men and women the same. If one is always sexualized and the other is never, it is not equality. As for whether the aim should be everything sexualized forever and nothing sexualized ever, I am pretty sure the right way is in between those examples. Anyway, thinking the problem in terms of one or two character taken in a vacuum does not work. The problem is in the bigger picture.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You only get equality when you treat men and women the same. If one is always sexualized and the other is never, it is not equality

It's easy to say that, but what does equality look like? We still have huge debates over how society is biased. We can't just shout 'equality' and bam, see exactly what equality will be like. We first have to define the nature of inequality, and then there's the issue of how to even reach equality at all.

Equality isn't as simple as treating everyone equally on a personal level. You have to see it as a societal struggle, and it's just not that easy.

The problem is in the bigger picture.

I am talking about the bigger picture. Morrigan and Bayonetta stand out in it for several reasons, as do characters like Samus, Cortanna, Zelda, Peach, and others. There's a reason these characters are continually brought up, and its because they can be taken as representations of a whole picture.

Is it still demonetization when you make it into a good demon? (I did mention in my post how demons are rarely evil these days.) The fluids thing is maybe a little problematic depending on how you look at it, but I have even played with that idea a little. Overall I'd say the character sounds neat. I am actually rather fond of the good demon character trope. (I could be bias because of how much I like it.) It's fun to play with expectations.

nomotog wrote:


Is it still demonetization when you make it into a good demon?

I think the problem is one of confusing context. We are preconceived towards seeing 'demon' as evil/bad/wrong (this is not a disposition the Japanese share per se mind you. 'Demons' to them are more akin to amoral than immoral). Remove that preconception, and the issue kind of vanishes and all you have is a skimpy woman with wings who loves flirting, seeing the world, and having fun. It's like if Paris Hilton traded in her horrible personhood for super powers. It forges as interesting dilemma especially for this kind of discussion.

I am actually rather fond of the good demon character trope

I enjoyed the half-demons in Kelly Armstrong's novels, and they're probably my second favorite kind of supernatural person after Werewolves

 LordofHats wrote:

nomotog wrote:


Is it still demonetization when you make it into a good demon?

I think the problem is one of confusing context. We are preconceived towards seeing 'demon' as evil/bad/wrong (this is not a disposition the Japanese share per se mind you. 'Demons' to them are more akin to amoral than immoral). Remove that preconception, and the issue kind of vanishes and all you have is a skimpy woman with wings who loves flirting, seeing the world, and having fun. It's like if Paris Hilton traded in her horrible personhood for super powers. It forges as interesting dilemma especially for this kind of discussion.

I am actually rather fond of the good demon character trope

I enjoyed the half-demons in Kelly Armstrong's novels, and they're probably my second favorite kind of supernatural person after Werewolves

So your saying it makes sense out of context.

I'm saying it is less egregious in a different context.

The sexy demon lady hero rose up as part of the larger "lets make the good guys darker and edgier" craze from the 70's and 80's. As a result however the context of demon itself is changing, even in western society. Like you said, you like expectations being messed with (so do we all) and as a result those who follow us end up with different expectations. It's kind of the underpinning of this entire issue XD

nomotog wrote:


You know, still no. Nothing about Kitana, Mileena or Jade looks ninja inspired. If anything I think they are more inspired by harem and slave girl costumes. At least the way they are designed now that is. Looking at some of the concept art shows they could have been done a lot differently.

Yeah if I think "female ninja" then I think of something similar to Ayame from Tenchu. Black, soft, quiet loose clothing which doesn't hinder movement.

 Sigvatr wrote:
MK is a bad example. It blatantly caters to men in each and every regard because female MK players are more of a myth than the Holy Grail.

I can now add 'myth' to my titles.

Also, MK might be OTT, but OTT does not inherently mean =< Bikini for women.