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0101/10/29 20:32:41
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I suppose there's also flanderisation and/or adaption decay to account for some of the modern representations too, such as a certain book series/film series.
For what it's worth, I thought it was seen as quite a common thing too.
2014/09/29 20:32:43
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I think that's the original. I'm just guessing based on not being able to read the articles while at work.
I'm just thinking that it's odd that there's something that we're so accepting of showing up in media, yet when it actually behaves like itself, people are uncool with it.
And? It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Someone would need to be pretty desensitized/a real d-bag to not be a little disturbed by that moment. The devs should be patting their backs. Mission accomplished.
Because life would be far too easy if everything was clear and concise. Vampires are very closely related to sex. Some times it's the sexual assult angle, sometimes it's related to the dangers of sex like aids or sexually transmuted disease. In the past, they were even used as a symbol for homosexuality with some rather poor implications attached. Some times they just sexy.
I had a response to this, but it might have come out offensive. Not to anyone specific, just matters of sensibility. I'll think about it and see if I can reword to not do so.
Though I think the example you are referencing is CASTLEVANIA: LORDS OF SHADOW 2. I never played that game myself and I believe the controversy was based off a preview that ended up changing. I don't recall exactly though.
Yeah, that's the one. I didn't expect a secondary tangent to develop into a full conversation, but I have a link to the clip and what I think was the article above.
I think it made it into the game from what I understand, which I applaud them for, personally.
Melissia wrote: Refusing to see things because you're afraid you'll start seeing it everywhere is the same as putting blinders on and willfully being ignorant.
I'm confused. Are you saying that you see violently and parasitically draining something of blood for your own sustenance as a strong allusion to sexual assault? Because, like, I never said anything about refusing to see anything, and stuff. I just don't see it. I mean, of all the various things the many versions of vampires are classically reputed to do to members of the opposite sex, killing them via exsanguination is probably the last one that shows up in my mind as sexual assault.
Your saying that vampires aren't a metaphor sexual assault? I thought this was kind of a well known thing.
Hahahaha
Yeah. People always forget that bit don't they?
When did this happen?
No idea people keep mentioning it.
Can someone source it?
Wikipedia says: Alex Ahad Mariel Kinuko Cartwright Richard Suh I wonder which one is Zone .
WHo? Is zone? Also...
Alex Ahad - Male Mariel Kinuko Cartwright <----- Female name Richard Suh - Male
According to the description- Mariel Kinuko Cartwright is the Lead animator on Skullgirls, likes drawing pictures. Los Angeles.
Hmmm Lets see who has the power here, and who says what goes in and what doesn't?
There has been a lot of buzz about Skullgirls floating around the net recently, unfortunately for all the wrong reasons. A recent interview with Eurogamer has been quoted time and time again in debates on whether or not the game’s characters and art style are sexist. This has been the hot topic of the day rather than the game’s newest revealed character Valentine, Mike Z’s recent revelation of how the infinite prevention system works, or even the most recent gameplay demonstration.
Well to finally put this discussion to rest, Alex Ahad, the creator of the Skullgirls world and characters, has decided to chime in on the debate on his DeviantArt page. He very maturely described his point of view on the characters he has created.
It’s also important to point out the difference between something being sexy and being sexist. I think the role of a character plays more of a defining element than what they look like. People complain about hour-glass figured female characters, but rarely do they complain about muscular/ perfectly fit male characters. Both of these are completely fine and acceptable in my opinion. The real issue comes from what their role and actions are. If a character is a sideline character and their sole purpose is to be a sex object, then it is sexist. If the character is a competent contributor to the story, then it is not sexist, even if they look sexy. Looking at a screenshot by itself, or judging by the artwork alone is extremely short-sighted. People who make knee-jerk reactionary judgments should have never been acknowledged.
He said that he understands his art style is not for everyone, and he does not expect it to be. However, he primarily drew things that were appealing to him.
Ultimately, the things you see in Skullgirls are there because it just happens to be stuff that I wanted to do. There are elements in the world that are just here because it’s cool and was fun to make. I enjoy drawing girls and monsters. I particularly enjoy drawing monster-girls. There is something more exciting about a design that is both twisted and cute at the same time. It’s more interesting than just an overly aggressive monster, or something totally saccharine. I also must admit that I have a preference to play female protagonists in a game. Whether the character is sexy or not, I think there is just something more fun and intriguing about a competent female lead character.
Finally he wanted to shed a bit of light on the “our lead animator is a woman” comment that has been quoted from the Eurogamer interview so many times.
Our quote was taken out of context and shouldn’t have been taken as an actual, serious argument against sexism. It’s rather disrespectful to both Kinuko and her work, as well as the company as a whole. If you read the whole article, you will see that there is an anecdote that demonstrates the absurdity of this female-animator argument. I wish it was made more clear that we don’t support the female-animator argument as a valid point against sexism at all. It has an incredibly misleading tone since the very first quote is “our lead animator is a woman.” It’s also in poor taste to call out another game/character by name as an example… I feel like these quotes all came from a conversation, rather than an actual interview.
The entire post is very well thought out, and reveals a lot about his motivations in creating Skullgirls and choosing the artistic style that he did. It’s a great read and it reveals way more than just Ahad’s opinions on the recent sexism complaints. If you are a fan of Skullgirls or even just interested in the grander debate of sexism in videogames, you should give it a read.
1Shinta8 months ago "Yes, Lords of Shadow 2 Made Me Feel Uncomfortable: The Case For Censorship"
I think it's really sad to specifically hear Cox talking about how they feel more confident as a team, and how that confidence is letting them go for their creative vision for the game without compromise. And then right after that, someone asks them to cut it.
"When Cox talks about wanting to take risks and arguments with the marketing team, it's clear that the scene was constructed with the intention of evoking sexual assault."
Why is it clear? I'm at a disadvantage here, not having played through that scene yet. But it sounds like murder to me, not rape. And as you said, all vampire movies since Interview with the Vampire basically blur the lines between eroticism and violence, and that's a series from a female author. If you want to categorize every single vampire attack in Interview with the Vampire as rape, you probably could if you wanted to twist it into that. Hell, in that movie they turn a child into a vampire, and then eventually Louis has a romantic relationship with her.
I don't remember any professional film critics writing to the director, pleading with them to delete content from the movie; and that movie came out 20 years ago, in 1994. I know that as an internet blogger, it's very easy to dismiss any critical commenters. But seriously, think about it. How sad would it be if professional film critics wrote articles appealing for censorship?
"Second, you're not meant to sympathize with the victim -- a young woman who doesn't even rate a name or a personality. You are meant to sympathize with Dracula."
It sounds like the same theme as the first game, where Gabriel murdered his wife and Claudia (I think that's her name) and then his guilt tormented him and twisted him. The game is about him, this isn't a secret. And that scene shows that he's gone down the same road as the first game, but is infinitely worse. I don't think we're meant to know who she is in Lords of Shadow 2, because he feeds on so many people over the years that you could never really detail all the victims. They are his food. Humans don't get into the backstory of all the animals they eat, and name them (yes, I'm a vegetarian).
You have every right to be bothered by a scene, and to have your opinion about it. You have every right to tell others about it, because if people find they agree with you about most games, maybe they'll feel the same way. But I think its sad for a professional game blogger with a voice and early access to advocate for censorship before your audience even gets to see the game. I want to see Mercury Steam's vision for Dracula, not yours. No offense, but it is the truth.
Yes because all comments are filled with vile :/
Shesh I've read that one before.
This comment I say is awesome and I agree with every counter point within it.
And? It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Someone would need to be pretty desensitized/a real d-bag to not be a little disturbed by that moment. The devs should be patting their backs. Mission accomplished.
Agreed.
The scene is suppose to be like that.
Those scenes are suppose to make you flinch and garner a reaction.
If your feelings are hurt well too bad. (This is not aimed at anyone) If you cried at the ending of where the red fern grows and you demand the ending to be scrapped and replaced with happy filters.
Or old yellar to not have the super sad ending and to replace it with Old Yellar surviving because it hurt your feelings. Get the out.
You are clearly at the disposition of not being an adult.
Another comment that explains vampires sexual interaction with the mind apparently O.o
Well, there's been a link between vampires and sexual imagery since Bram Stoker's Dracula - that's the classic symbolism of it. Castlevania hasn't really explored that angle before, choosing instead to just use Vampires as window dressing in their weird faux-gothic castles.
So Lords of Shadow taking Dracula and having him drink the blood of some beautiful young woman may not be franchise tradition, but it is certainly Vampire tradition. There are absolutely countless adaptations of the vampire lore that depict blood drinking as a sexual experience (at times VERY explicitly).
I mean, look at this website! Look at the cover image NBC is advertising their current TV drama version with! http://www.nbc.com/dracula/
Does the author find NBC's Dracula equally objectionable? Other Vampire works that work the vampirism = sex symbolism? Does the author abject to the original book, in which Dracula not only snuck into a woman's room to drain her fluids night after night, but kept himself a personal vampire harem too?
If the author objects to all of the above then I question why she was previewing a game starring Dracula, but at least that's consistent. If the author objects to only this particular manifestation of the imagery, then there are some hard questions that follow. What makes this variation of the symbolism so different from all the others? That it's in a game? That it's depicted from a first person perspective? That it's interactive?
No, I reject all of those. Games should and must be permitted to explore creative territory like any other medium, and here in particular the imagery in question is adapted from classic literature. This isn't even doing something new and offensive, this is doing something that can be seen on NBC every Friday night. Except in a game.
Would the author also object to a video game adaptation of The Hunchback of Notre Dam? Because that's another work of classic literature in which the protagonist gets up to some objectionable sexual acts. Specifically, Quasimodo locks Esmerelda in his tower because he wants to keep the pretty girl. Is such an idea something that video games should just never depict or interface with? What else should go on the list of "classic literature that games shouldn't even play in the same creative ballpark as"? 20,000 leagues under the sea? Nah, that's just murder. We're cool with that. Beloved? Eh.. I can see some people getting upset about that. Lolita? RED FLAG RED ALERT STAY AWAY!!
Okay, I think I've made my point that other mediums employ/explore this sort of imagery all the time, and that even many works of classic literature if adapted to video game form would be at LEAST as objectionable as Dracula drinking a woman's blood, if not far more so.
Given this information, I really object to the author calling for the scene to get cut from this game. It is entirely possible that this is a shock value moment that exists only for shock value and will come off as cheap and ill advised in the final product. It is ALSO possible that the scene will be instrumental in characterizing the inherent desperation and wickedness of this character that the game will then spend the next 18 hours or so exploring. Do we know whether the rest of the work leverages the scene effectively? No. Should the game get a chance? A chance to leverage the same symbolism that vampire fiction in every other medium has been using for the last three centuries?
Absolutely. The author should take this article down - in our current climate there's a real chance that a complaint like this WILL cause content changes in the game, and that's not fair to the medium, to the game, or to the thousands of players invested in this Lords of Shadow narrative looking forward to seeing it through to resolution.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/29 20:49:35
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 20:43:00
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: And? It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Someone would need to be pretty desensitized/a real d-bag to not be a little disturbed by that moment. The devs should be patting their backs. Mission accomplished.
That was kind of what I thought. I just didn't understand the sexual assault part of that scene in particular, particularly to the thing she likened it to.
LordofHats wrote: And? It's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. Someone would need to be pretty desensitized/a real d-bag to not be a little disturbed by that moment. The devs should be patting their backs. Mission accomplished.
That was kind of what I thought. I just didn't understand the sexual assault part of that scene in particular, particularly to the thing she likened it to.
Well if we had her way we would censoring it with kittens and that scene would lose all its power.
These types of scenes are needed. Hence why we needed the scene where Sergeant Johnson dies. If gives us a reason to fight at the end.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 20:52:46
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Though I think the example you are referencing is CASTLEVANIA: LORDS OF SHADOW 2. I never played that game myself and I believe the controversy was based off a preview that ended up changing. I don't recall exactly though.
Yeah, that's the one. I didn't expect a secondary tangent to develop into a full conversation, but I have a link to the clip and what I think was the article above.
I think it made it into the game from what I understand, which I applaud them for, personally.
Forcing the player to kill and eat a family is a thing. I'm not going to say you can't do that. More just that you need to be responsible when you do do it.
2014/09/29 20:57:07
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
daedalus wrote: Well, thinking about it, the reason why we seem to consolidate ideas and definitions into terms we use during conversation is to prevent needing to preamble a simple thought with a lengthy description of the thing we are trying to actually talk about when the emphasis of what we really want to talk about isn't the inherent nature of the the thing itself, but the behavior of it.
You haven't answered my question. I never asked why you needed terms to begin with, but why you felt the need for that specific term, There's nothing in that term that has any value to this discussion.
daedalus wrote: I'm confused. Are you saying that you see violently and parasitically draining something of blood for your own sustenance as a strong allusion to sexual assault?
I could write doctorate-level thesis on that topic alone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 21:00:31
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/29 20:58:21
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Forcing the player to kill and eat a family is a thing. I'm not going to say you can't do that. More just that you need to be responsible when you do do it.
I'm genuinely not certain what you mean by that, or how you would do it.
I think Nomo is pointing out that games have a unique position in that they put the player in the role of the actor. This gives things that happen in games a different spin than what happens in TV or books. It makes a lack of tact when it comes to certain subject matter all the more egregious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 21:00:06
LordofHats wrote: I think Nomo is pointing out that games have a unique position in that they put the player in the role of the actor. This gives things that happen in games a different spin than what happens in TV or books. It makes a lack of tact when it comes to certain subject matter all the more egregious.
Also, taking that agency away from the player for a cutscene becomes that much more infuriating.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/29 21:04:40
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: I think Nomo is pointing out that games have a unique position in that they put the player in the role of the actor. This gives things that happen in games a different spin than what happens in TV or books. It makes a lack of tact when it comes to certain subject matter all the more egregious.
Also, taking that agency away from the player for a cutscene becomes that much more infuriating.
Sometimes.
If you can interact and use your controls during the cutscene my god it would be awesome.
Thats why there are fewer cutscenes in games.
But I find it intriguing, sometimes it wakes the player up and says. "Remember this is a game."
And it breaks the immersion so it is not immersive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 21:07:34
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 21:09:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
daedalus wrote: Well, thinking about it, the reason why we seem to consolidate ideas and definitions into terms we use during conversation is to prevent needing to preamble a simple thought with a lengthy description of the thing we are trying to actually talk about when the emphasis of what we really want to talk about isn't the inherent nature of the the thing itself, but the behavior of it.
You haven't answered my question.
I think I did. Defining terms for things makes it easier to talk about them, because people have a idea of what you're referring to without needing to explain the topic in full length every time.
"You know the round red things (with the black things in them that grow into the big brown things that come out of the ground) that grow off the big brown things that come up out of the flat thing with all the green on it. I hear they keep the well learned sapient being who other sapient beings go to whenever they're in danger of permanently no longer becoming sapient away."
"Oh, you mean an apple?"
"Yeah. Pass me one of those."
daedalus wrote: I'm confused. Are you saying that you see violently and parasitically draining something of blood for your own sustenance as a strong allusion to sexual assault?
I could write doctorate-level thesis on that topic alone.
I also took the connection between vampires and sexual assault to be common knowledge. It has been well documented and written about.
And the killing of Sgt. Johnson in Halo felt like an easy way to give the story "heat." Especially so cheaply and not earned. "Oh someone I liked died, now its serous!" YMMV. They did a much better job with Cortana.
2014/09/29 21:13:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Agreed about Johnson. I was surprised, but only because it seemed so cheap and silly. Now Shock and Awe from Modern Warfare. That's how you shock someone with character death... Not that whatshisface was much of a character, but hey at least it was shocking
LordofHats wrote: I think Nomo is pointing out that games have a unique position in that they put the player in the role of the actor. This gives things that happen in games a different spin than what happens in TV or books. It makes a lack of tact when it comes to certain subject matter all the more egregious.
That actually explains the situation well enough and in a way that shows me why I can't personally understand it.
I could suggest something along the lines "well, it's it's bloodlust and he can't help but be driven to it, and it'd dilute the impact of the scene if you allowed someone to walk away from it," but I don't honestly know. I haven't played the game yet. It's on the list though.
daedalus wrote: Defining terms for things makes it easier to talk about them
Reducing a concept in to an acronym also makes it easier for you to talk down about it without actually contributing much.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/29 21:56:02
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: Do you dispute that the essence of Alien was a story about male rape?
Uh, what the hell?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/29 21:57:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: Do you dispute that the essence of Alien was a story about male rape?
Uh, what the hell?
Alien. It's totally about men being raped by the monstrous feminine
Critics have also analyzed Alien's sexual overtones. Following Barbara Creed's analysis of the Alien creature as a representation of the "monstrous-feminine as archaic mother,"[102] Ximena Gallardo C. and C. Jason Smith compare the facehugger's attack on Kane to a male rape and the chestburster scene to a form of violent birth, noting that the Alien's phallic head and method of killing the crew members add to the sexual imagery.[103][104] Dan O'Bannon has argued that the scene is a metaphor for the male fear of penetration, and that the "oral invasion" of Kane by the facehugger functions as "payback" for the many horror films in which sexually vulnerable women are attacked by male monsters.[105] McIntee claims that "Alien is a rape movie as much as Straw Dogs (1971) or I Spit on Your Grave (1978), or The Accused (1988). On one level it's about an intriguing alien threat. On one level it's about parasitism and disease. And on the level that was most important to the writers and director, it's about sex, and reproduction by non-consensual means. And it's about this happening to a man."[106] He notes how the film plays on men's fear and misunderstanding of pregnancy and childbirth, while also giving women a glimpse into these fears.[107] Film analyst Lina Badley has written that the Alien's design, with strong Freudian sexual undertones, multiple phallic symbols, and overall feminine figure, provides an androgynous image conforming to archetypal mappings and imageries in horror films that often redraw gender lines.[108] O'Bannon himself later described the sexual imagery in Alien as overt and intentional: "One thing that people are all disturbed about is sex... I said 'That's how I'm going to attack the audience; I'm going to attack them sexually. And I'm not going to go after the women in the audience, I'm going to attack the men. I am going to put in every image I can think of to make the men in the audience cross their legs. Homosexual oral rape, birth. The thing lays its eggs down your throat, the whole number.'"[109]
Ridley Scott and others who worked on the film have even told how they tried not to talk about it with Fox, afraid that if executives caught wind of what they were doing they'd be forced to stop.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/29 21:59:48
People complain about hour-glass figured female characters, but rarely do they complain about muscular/ perfectly fit male characters. Both of these are completely fine and acceptable in my opinion.
That is missing the whole thing that super muscled men are not sexy men, and the fact the problem comes not from existence but from prevalence. Anyway.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/29 22:12:02
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
People complain about hour-glass figured female characters, but rarely do they complain about muscular/ perfectly fit male characters. Both of these are completely fine and acceptable in my opinion.
That is missing the whole thing that super muscled men are not sexy men, and the fact the problem comes not from existence but from prevalence. Anyway.
That is your definition of what you find attractive different people are attracted to different things.
Let them choose what they want to add to the game.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 22:14:06
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
O'Bannon himself later described the sexual imagery in Alien as overt and intentional: "One thing that people are all disturbed about is sex... I said 'That's how I'm going to attack the audience; I'm going to attack them sexually. And I'm not going to go after the women in the audience, I'm going to attack the men. I am going to put in every image I can think of to make the men in the audience cross their legs. Homosexual oral rape, birth. The thing lays its eggs down your throat, the whole number.'"
So much failed at this on me…
(On the other hand, I was, what, 12 or 14 when I saw it, so I guess it is a good thing.)
It is still going to be a story of insect-like killer extraterrestrial organisms to me .
Nope, sorry. I am not really into men. That is how one would design male characters if he wanted them to be sexy. Completely different.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 22:15:51
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/29 22:18:58
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
O'Bannon himself later described the sexual imagery in Alien as overt and intentional: "One thing that people are all disturbed about is sex... I said 'That's how I'm going to attack the audience; I'm going to attack them sexually. And I'm not going to go after the women in the audience, I'm going to attack the men. I am going to put in every image I can think of to make the men in the audience cross their legs. Homosexual oral rape, birth. The thing lays its eggs down your throat, the whole number.'"
So much failed at this on me…
(On the other hand, I was, what, 12 or 14 when I saw it, so I guess it is a good thing.)
It is still going to be a story of insect-like killer extraterrestrial organisms to me .
I have no idea what you mean. Lean muscle and dexterous body are more attractive/sexy than hulking muscle. See also how the nipples and ass are emphasized or not, and the poses of the character, and everything…
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/29 22:29:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
*Sigh* it's been noted time and time again between male empowerment fantasies and sexuality female images (from a hetero male point of view). We will go in circles about this.
And once again not all guys want "sexy" to be the default for female characters. It can be used well, but there is a bad habit in game industry to use the poorly.
Once again designers can make whatever they want. But people will call them out on it when they push the same annoying messages.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 22:31:09
2014/09/29 22:32:58
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: *Sigh* it's been noted time and time again between male empowerment fantasies and sexuality female images (from a hetero male point of view). We will go in circles about this.
And once again not all guys want "sexy" to be the default for female characters. It can be used well, but there is a bad habit in game industry to use the poorly.
Once again designers can make whatever they want. But people will call them out on it when they push the same annoying messages.
True, But I think we are getting less and less.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
out.
