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Imo, I think she is a good example of sexualization without derement to the charicter. She is still a strong character, she is just also sexy. Some people don't seem to get that you can be both. Just look as Samus (although, apparently not so much in the most recent game, didn't play it)l

Samus might be attractive, but I don't think her being attractive is a core part of her character given that outside of the one or metroid games with her in her Zero Suit and the Smash Brothers game, she's pretty much a person in a fantastic suit of power armor doing badass things. And even in her zero suit, her being attractive is just there, it's not really built in to her character in anywhere near the same way-- and she certainly doesn't act sexual.

Which I'm fine with, in fact, I usually prefer it that way, given the history of male writers writing female characters whom are sexual.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Imo, I think she is a good example of sexualization without derement to the charicter. She is still a strong character, she is just also sexy. Some people don't seem to get that you can be both. Just look as Samus (although, apparently not so much in the most recent game, didn't play it)l

The issue is that I rarely see both working together. Often a character's sex appeal is sacrificed to up their awesomeness, or their awesomeness sacrificed to up their sex appeal. Seeing a character that manages to blend both is quite rare. Bayonetta as previously mentioned is a character who blends both and comes out a complete bad ass for it. EDIT: I'd agree with Mel that Samus generally doesn't come off to me as sexy. I mean yes, she's hot under that armor, but when I think of Samus I don't think of a hot buxom blonde. I think of a suit of armor that's about to wreck gak.

It's a very difficult mix to hit, and I think not just because of issues our culture with women but issues our culture has with sex. I think those two things can be considered separate but overlapping conflicts in our cultural mindset. Sex is taboo, and that makes it edgy, but edgy things also tend to lose their flavor when used too much. There are times where creators are clearly nervous portraying sexuality in any way, leading to creators who blow sexuality up to exploit its tabooness, but they tend to realize this is a gamble, meaning they tend to blow that edge on side/supporting cast where the 'sexiness' of the character ends up dominating the character.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Imo, I think she is a good example of sexualization without derement to the charicter. She is still a strong character, she is just also sexy. Some people don't seem to get that you can be both. Just look as Samus (although, apparently not so much in the most recent game, didn't play it)l

The issue is that I rarely see both working together. Often a character's sex appeal is sacrificed to up their awesomeness, or their awesomeness sacrificed to up their sex appeal. Seeing a character that manages to blend both is quite rare. Bayonetta as previously mentioned is a character who blends both and comes out a complete bad ass for it.

It's a very difficult mix to hit, and I think not just because of issues our culture with women but issues our culture has with sex. I think those two things can be considered separate but overlapping conflicts in our cultural mindset. Sex is taboo, and that makes it edgy, but edgy things also tend to lose their flavor when used too much. There are times where creators are clearly nervous portraying sexuality in any way, leading to creators who blow sexuality up to exploit its tabooness, but they tend to realize this is a gamble, meaning they tend to blow that edge on side/supporting cast where the 'sexiness' of the character ends up dominating the character.

Really, I think you hit the main problem, sex is taboo. If we spend all this time worrying about "Oh no, sex!" we will never move forward.

Well, the other issue is as Melissa mentioned gaming's history is full of examples of them completely missing the mark on the issue.

I can definitely see the argument of avoiding it if people continue to do it poorly. Sex can have its place in games but often like violence, it is used poorly. And can also sometimes just feel tacked on.

All things, sex, violence, language, have their place in games, but are often put on for shock value.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Well, the other issue is as Melissa mentioned gaming's history is full of examples of them completely missing the mark on the issue.

I can definitely see the argument of avoiding it if people continue to do it poorly. Sex can have its place in games but often like violence, it is used poorly. And can also sometimes just feel tacked on.

There are some games that do hit the mark though.

but there are plently examples of it being poorly done in other games.


I remember there have been a few games dealing with female abuse and how bad it is, but it was just an offshoot of the game and never really delved into it.

Watch Dogs delved into sex trafficking but it was only a side mission.

Another major issue is the way they represent it sometimes.

IT is very rare that a game design team actually goes in with a good idea of how to execute that scene. Though there are some teams that I confidently say they do.

Agreed. It is frustrating when they use women abuse as cheap heat to show "this bad guy is bad" or "this is a serious, gritty world." It just feels ...lazy.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Agreed. It is frustrating when they use women abuse as cheap heat to show "this bad guy is bad" or "this is a serious, gritty world." It just feels ...lazy.

The trend of primarily using women for this also shows that most writers don't value the women characters as actual characters, but rather, as victims to be killed off in order to move the plot-- and usually without consciously thinking about the message this sends.

 LordofHats wrote:
[Often a character's sex appeal is sacrificed to up their awesomeness, or their awesomeness sacrificed to up their sex appeal.

I can see plenty of examples for the second one, but for the first one I am a bit lost.

I'm guessing that refers to, for example, the new look Lara Croft.

 AdeptSister wrote:


I can definitely see the argument of avoiding it if people continue to do it poorly. Sex can have its place in games but often like violence, it is used poorly. And can also sometimes just feel tacked on.

This is very much the case. Enter: Bioware. To Bioware's writers, sex is a reward for the player and the pinnacle of a relationship. Very appealing to teenagers. Downright embarassing to any literate adult.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Seriously though, as grim as it sounds, another industry crash might be a good thing.
That should give smaller companies a chance to fill in the void, and introduce new ideas and mechanics.

No offense, but...I am not sure if you're sure what you're talking about...Yes, it's dominated by a few large studios, but that applies to each and any form of entertainment. Those studios solely produce for profit and know how to maximize it by catering to the largest and most profitable groups. But at the same time, computer and video gaming has never been in a better state especially for indie developers. Kickstarter. Steam Greenlight. Countless indie contests. There's more. This is a golden time for any developer. How did Mojang start out? Where did he end up? DayZ and its wide-spread popularity? The entire sandbox survival genre has been born by indie developers.

Hoping for a "crash" is, with all due respect, short-sighted and lacks all common sense. This is the golden age of computer and video gaming. Right now.

The proportions look a bit off, among other things, but Cassie Cage at least has neither cleavage, bikini, high heels or anything! I am looking forward to MKX even more now.

 Sigvatr wrote:


Hoping for a "crash" is, with all due respect, short-sighted and lacks all common sense. This is the golden age of computer and video gaming. Right now.

I wouldn't say it's the golden age. If it were the golden age you wouldn't have stuff like the Xbox One, AAA games with little content, Day 1 DLC and bloated games that take much more HD space than they actually need.
Though yes, you do have a point about the indie scene - that is doing quite well.

This is very much the case. Enter: Bioware. To Bioware's writers, sex is a reward for the player and the pinnacle of a relationship. Very appealing to teenagers. Downright embarassing to any literate adult.

Funnily enough the few games that have relationships, Shadow of the Colossus, the goal of that relationship is trying to resurrect the other.

I remember antia saying the girl that was already dead was a damsel. And yet completely forgeting the context of the entire scene. (Sorry that bugs me completely, she's dead, she's not a damsel in distress, we had no idea she was a damsel, we had no idea it would work. Plus according to those circumstances, the boy was a damsel in distress because he was in distress and he didn't know what to do. In the end the character doesn't even get to see her come back to life, )


Another one is Hotline Miami. A suttle idea is that the main character and a woman slowly start to become closer, as his places starts to get cleaned, and the beds start to move closer.

Mass effect had a lot of problems, that with sex being the reward. I thought the goal of every relationship was just to be able to be around each other.

A simple hand holding means a lot in real life and in games.

Instead of delving into sex they just need regular types of relationships, not all relationships should be based around sex.

Though I do see in games like jade empire, star wars knights of the old republic (Biowares first one), where it was just kissing and hugging. I see that as more mature than mass effect's..... More interesting scene.

But considering todays culture. Sex is sometimes seen as the reward for doing things.

 Ashiraya wrote:



The proportions look a bit off, among other things, but Cassie Cage at least has neither cleavage, bikini, high heels or anything! I am looking forward to MKX even more now.

Yeah, it seems nice. But the end animation makes little sense. She get her gun out of her holster, do not fire, and still there is smoke coming out of the gun to blow at…

 Asherian Command wrote:
Another one is Hotline Miami. A suttle idea is that the main character and a woman slowly start to become closer, as his places starts to get cleaned, and the beds start to move closer.

Hotline Miam is a good example of both Damsel in distress and then Woman in Refrigerator.

Hotline Miam is a good example of both Damsel in distress and then Woman in Refrigerator.

Yes but then we have actual value to the characters.

The main character doesn't kill her, someone else does.

The entire characters motivation is to avenge her.

I don't like saying those cliches are bad. They are just cliches and can be used whenever because its a writers ability to use cliches in order to tell a story.

Antia forgets that men and women can be used for both those cliches.

Just labelling it only for women is kind of not seeing the whole picture.

Because in many games you have to rescue a group of soldiers, or a son is killed, or your father is killed, or your brother is killed etc etc. etc.

Hotline Miami is a great example of a relationship down right. She is important to the player.

I wonder what antia would think of edgar allan poe's interpretation of women.

The main character doesn't kill her, someone else does.

The entire characters motivation is to avenge her.

Woman in refrigerator. Like that is basically the definition.

nomotog wrote:

The main character doesn't kill her, someone else does.

The entire characters motivation is to avenge her.

Woman in refrigerator. Like that is basically the definition.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Because in games like that we see what it does to the character.

 Asherian Command wrote:

nomotog wrote:

The main character doesn't kill her, someone else does.

The entire characters motivation is to avenge her.

Woman in refrigerator. Like that is basically the definition.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Because in games like that we see what it does to the character.

What character are you talking about?

nomotog wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

nomotog wrote:

The main character doesn't kill her, someone else does.

The entire characters motivation is to avenge her.

Woman in refrigerator. Like that is basically the definition.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Because in games like that we see what it does to the character.

What character are you talking about?

Both of the characters.

In the end the main character lets go.

Saying it is bad to have those relationships is stupid and childish.

Those things do happen. People get killed and that is not sexist.

It would be sexist if she was killed in a way only to suite the plot, but both he and her were both shot. He just happened to be the only one to survive.

Because thus far antia sounds like she dislikes that woman are used for plot devices. Where men are also used for plot devices as well.

I think having a balance in a game of using both men and women as plot devices is a good thing. Its not a throw away as long as it impacts the character. It is not a bad thing to use a character as a plot device. As long as it serves its purpose and impacts the main character in someway.

Hotline: Miami was a fun game in terms of gameplay, but man was it boringly cliche right from the start.

 Asherian Command wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

nomotog wrote:

The main character doesn't kill her, someone else does.

The entire characters motivation is to avenge her.

Woman in refrigerator. Like that is basically the definition.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Because in games like that we see what it does to the character.

What character are you talking about?

Both of the characters.

In the end the main character lets go.

Saying it is bad to have those relationships is stupid and childish.

Those things do happen. People get killed and that is not sexist.

It would be sexist if she was killed in a way only to suite the plot, but both he and her were both shot. He just happened to be the only one to survive.

Because thus far antia sounds like she dislikes that woman are used for plot devices. Where men are also used for plot devices as well.

I think having a balance in a game of using both men and women as plot devices is a good thing. Its not a throw away as long as it impacts the character. It is not a bad thing to use a character as a plot device. As long as it serves its purpose and impacts the main character in someway.

I don't think I can untangle all of that.

 Melissia wrote:
Hotline: Miami was a fun game in terms of gameplay, but man was it boringly cliche right from the start.

That was kind of the point of the game. The game was anti-violence and anti-hero. The game was showing the faults of the gaming community. The entire game was a message against this type of stuff. A misunderstanding of that basic understanding and the metaphors it used is clearly not catching onto it. As the developer even said it was an anti-violence game.

Why do you think focus on brutallity in such a way?

Why do you think they had those breaking moments where the guys mind exploded when he saw his girlfriend?

You are barely touching the surface here.

I don't think I can untangle all of that.

Yes you could

The problem with the woman in refrigerators trope, well one of the problems, is that they die for someone else benefit. It doesn't matter to their story arc motivations often because they don't have an arc or motivations. They are a prop for the hero. A way for the hero to have a deeper character.

I haven't played hotline miami, so I don't really know how well this fits.

nomotog wrote:
The problem with the woman in refrigerators trope, well one of the problems, is that they die for someone else benefit. It doesn't matter to their story arc motivations often because they don't have an arc or motivations. They are a prop for the hero. A way for the hero to have a deeper character.

I haven't played hotline miami, so I don't really know how well this fits.

Well that happens a lot death changes people. It is not a problem.

If it has meaning to that death. Especially if that death was the main characters fault.

And it makes the character grow, just saying that is a bad thing is not enough.

Its like saying it is stupid that my main character changed because his sister died. He committed euthanasia on her because there was no other alternative, he either let the monster devour her, or he dealt with her himself and ensured she wouldn't suffer anymore. Is that a bad thing? No. It is morally right to do.

If you want to talk about what is ethical and what is not, you will lose this debate from the get go.

In truth you should be able to take vengeance for someone's death, and the blame falls strictly on you. But if you are a crime fighter and you are fighting to stop a russian mob. What is the mob's universal rule? Hit them where it hurts. What does the mob do? The exact same thing, they hire someone and get the main character severely wounded and his girlfriend killed.

By that same logic, when Ashley dies (or mattering who you try to help on the attack on one of the places.) is a damsel in distress or woman in the fridge. But that is only a brief look at it. That is a scratch on the surface. And at the surface it seems very sexist, but then you have to remember you have a choice to make. Save either ash or kaidan.

By that logic again with woman in the fridge. Then according to that I am sexist, because I had a woman die and she impacted someones life because of her death.

That is not a bad thing. That is showing human reaction. That is normal.

Are you saying, that if someone blew away your girlfriend you would have no reaction? and then she would be labelled a women in the fridge? How would you feel?

That is a normal reaction and a very real element. When someone dies we feel like we have to avenge them, do something for them. Not because it is sexist. But because We love them. Not because of some sexist ideology pattern.

But because we love them. This simple out of context idea called the woman in the fridge is a stupid idea. Because that is a bare scratch on the door. That line of thinking is incredibly inaccurate and paints characters who are motivated in terms of love for their family or their loved ones past, as sexist in motivation. That is outrageous and ill thought out.

And I will not stand for someone saying that. Just because I choose to kill someone's sister, to change the character, to put them on the right path to redemption, should not been as sexist. As that is a very real thing that happens, for either good or ill.

I can't untangle that either. I though It explained well, but I guess not. The problem is really the same problem at the core of a lot of sexist tropes. Ask yourself what is in for the woman's arc? If your response is, what arc? Then there you go. Women often play the role of props and not agents.

nomotog wrote:
I can't untangle that either. I though It explained well, but I guess not. The problem is really the same problem at the core of a lot of sexist tropes. Ask yourself what is in for the woman's arc? If your response is, what arc? Then there you go. Women often play the role of props and not agents.

Then so do many other characters.

Like that marine that you kill in a game. Or hell all the bad guys in the game that are male. What about their stories?

What about their lives? What about their ideals?

You have lost this debate completely once that is brought up.

That is not sexist.
Considering in all games the main enemies are usually Male. (That is sexist)

There is no sexism involved. Saying there is just scooping on the surface. That is just a little tap on it.

The woman already had her story told. Just because her story is not finished does not mean it is sexist.

The main focus is on the main character. Not the characters he/she meets on the way.

I can sort of see both angles here. It does feel it can get incredibly repetitive.

On the other hand... Just how many times has the main characters relatives and close family actually survived any games in mostly one piece?

Anyone that is remotely approaching a mentor / father figure has a high tendancy gets killed off no later than Act 3. - Usually due to the Heroes Journey factor.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I don't like saying those cliches are bad. They are just cliches and can be used whenever because its a writers ability to use cliches in order to tell a story.

Problem is when it is always the same gender playing the victim part and the same gender playing the savior/avenger part.

nomotog wrote:
The problem with the woman in refrigerators trope, well one of the problems, is that they die for someone else benefit. It doesn't matter to their story arc motivations often because they don't have an arc or motivations. They are a prop for the hero. A way for the hero to have a deeper character.

There is very few character development for the main character, and absolutely none whatsoever for his female love interest.

 Asherian Command wrote:
That was kind of the point of the game. The game was anti-violence and anti-hero. The game was showing the faults of the gaming community. The entire game was a message against this type of stuff. A misunderstanding of that basic understanding and the metaphors it used is clearly not catching onto it. As the developer even said it was an anti-violence game.

Oh. I though it was a psychedelic ultra-violent game about listening to cool mind-blowing music while killing goons in ultra-violent manner in a psychedelic view.

 Asherian Command wrote:
But if you are a crime fighter and you are fighting to stop a russian mob.

What the hell, man? Have we been playing the same game? At that point you are

 Asherian Command wrote:
What is the mob's universal rule? Hit them where it hurts. What does the mob do? The exact same thing, they hire someone and get the main character severely wounded and his girlfriend killed.

Iirc, it is not the mob but the network from the crazies that send a guy to kill you. Your girlfriend just happens to be in the way.

 Asherian Command wrote:
By that same logic, when Ashley dies

I have no idea which game you are talking about.