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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
So what about sexualized.

What about it? It means the GJW who made the image was lying through his or her teeth (or made terribad research on the subject) when he made that image where he or she accused journalists of not being honest. What kind of message does that sends us about GG?

What does this have to do with gamergate?

Female representation is an issue, we have said that many times.

Not to be too mean, but this isn't the GG thread. I don't think we need that discussion here.

nomotog wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Why the 10 years limit?

Because I was complaining that jade was in a unpopular game over ten years ago, but is almost always brought up when people complain about the lack of women in games. I liked the game ya, but it's just not all that current. So ya, there isn't really like a scientific reason or anything. If I was going to be scientific, I would have limited it to about 5 years because I was taught you don't want to use a source over five years old as evidence.

Meh, that depends. In some areas, you are forced to use older data. A good, and very fitting, example would be looking for whether there is a correlation between how a specific matter (violence / sex) is represented in the media and how (or if!) people change their behavior according to it. Surprise, there isn't

In this very case, though, I don't understand why there would be a limit :/ In my eyes, the representation of male or female characters hasn't changed at all in video games. It's just that feminism, or faux-minism in some cases, see Zoe Quinn and the endless flood of SJW fools, is an "in" topic right now. It's a constant ebb and flow, and right now, this is "in". Wait a few months and we're back to square one.

If you think that there has been a major change, though, please elaborate on it, I might just not be able to see it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Why the 10 years limit?

Because I was complaining that jade was in a unpopular game over ten years ago, but is almost always brought up when people complain about the lack of women in games. I liked the game ya, but it's just not all that current. So ya, there isn't really like a scientific reason or anything. If I was going to be scientific, I would have limited it to about 5 years because I was taught you don't want to use a source over five years old as evidence.

Meh, that depends. In some areas, you are forced to use older data. A good, and very fitting, example would be looking for whether there is a correlation between how a specific matter (violence / sex) is represented in the media and how (or if!) people change their behavior according to it. Surprise, there isn't

In this very case, though, I don't understand why there would be a limit :/ In my eyes, the representation of male or female characters hasn't changed at all in video games. It's just that feminism, or faux-minism in some cases, see Zoe Quinn and the endless flood of SJW fools, is an "in" topic right now. It's a constant ebb and flow, and right now, this is "in". Wait a few months and we're back to square one.

If you think that there has been a major change, though, please elaborate on it, I might just not be able to see it.

In this case there is no reason to use old data. We aren't really looking for a correlation. It's more just a count of he number of female playable characters. The only reason you would need to pull an example form long ago would be if you count find any enough current examples. That was kind of my point.

I kind of think things have gotten more even in the past few years, but that is just a impression I have. Not hard numbers. I could look into things maybe taking a sample of the top selling games and compare year by year to see if there is a trend, but that would take some time to put together so we would have to wait on that.

In this case there is no reason to use old data. We aren't really looking for a correlation. It's more just a count of he number of female playable characters. The only reason you would need to pull an example form long ago would be if you count find any enough current examples. That was kind of my point.

I kind of think things have gotten more even in the past few years, but that is just a impression I have. Not hard numbers. I could look into things maybe taking a sample of the top selling games and compare year by year to see if there is a trend, but that would take some time to put together so we would have to wait on that.

Thats my impression as well.

It has become more even as time has gone on.

The entire idea that the games are still sexist is kind of.... dumb.

Only Zoe Quinn (creator of depression quest) has said that. Along with the feminists in the gaming industry. (Well the third wave feminists that is)

Not baring in mind that The Fine Young Capitalists are doing a great job and are becoming a gaming company with mostly female developers.

 Asherian Command wrote:

In this case there is no reason to use old data. We aren't really looking for a correlation. It's more just a count of he number of female playable characters. The only reason you would need to pull an example form long ago would be if you count find any enough current examples. That was kind of my point.

I kind of think things have gotten more even in the past few years, but that is just a impression I have. Not hard numbers. I could look into things maybe taking a sample of the top selling games and compare year by year to see if there is a trend, but that would take some time to put together so we would have to wait on that.

Thats my impression as well.

It has become more even as time has gone on.

The entire idea that the games are still sexist is kind of.... dumb.

Only Zoe Quinn (creator of depression quest) has said that. Along with the feminists in the gaming industry. (Well the third wave feminists that is)

Not baring in mind that The Fine Young Capitalists are doing a great job and are becoming a gaming company with mostly female developers.

I didn't say that. I said that I feel things have gotten a little better the last few years.

nomotog wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


The entire idea that the games are still sexist is kind of.... dumb.

I didn't say that. I said that I feel things have gotten a little better the last few years.

Not you there are some here who don't believe that sentiment!

 Asherian Command wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


The entire idea that the games are still sexist is kind of.... dumb.

I didn't say that. I said that I feel things have gotten a little better the last few years.

Not you there are some here who don't believe that sentiment!

My sentiment is just a feeling I have. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to have a different feeling then I do. It is not as though my word is law or anything silly like that

 Asherian Command wrote:
What does this have to do with gamergate?

Did you read the image I was answering to?

 Asherian Command wrote:
The entire idea that the games are still sexist is kind of.... dumb.
[…]
Not baring in mind that The Fine Young Capitalists are doing a great job and are becoming a gaming company with mostly female developers.

You do realized that the whole point of the Fine Young Capitalist is about having video-games to be less male-centered, right?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
What does this have to do with gamergate?

Did you read the image I was answering to?

 Asherian Command wrote:
The entire idea that the games are still sexist is kind of.... dumb.
[…]
Not baring in mind that The Fine Young Capitalists are doing a great job and are becoming a gaming company with mostly female developers.

You do realized that the whole point of the Fine Young Capitalist is about having video-games to be less male-centered, right?

First what picture are you refering to? because gamergate has nothing to do with this thread.

So saying Gamer Justice warriors is just idiotic on this thread.

Umm

The Fine Young Capitalists' mission is to create media using under represented labour, for unexplored demographics to fund non-profit organizations.

We took 5 women who had never designed a video game before and gave them professional concept artists to create their ideal game. We created a prototype and now want the internet to vote on the best game so we can make it and give all the proceeds to charity.

For more info go to

Nope.

he Fine Young Capitalists are all about education. So we've done videos discussing gender representation in video games, explaining how to pitch video games, and examples of art - all free to view on our website. Backers of this project will have a say on which videos we work on next.

They want to cater to everyone, but have more of a female focus in their development team.

 Dr. Temujin wrote:
Here's something my buddy just shared:
http://imgur.com/RfYnkBt
I realize this thread isn't about Gamergate, per se, but it certainly ties in to this topic.

Even in a today’s society, companies are not willing to hire women for leadership roles.

Our focus is to empower women and to encourage them to take part into a leadership role while interacting with a creative framework. We want to support and embrace a higher number of women hired by any entity in the whole spectrum of the videogame industry.

We are strengthening bonds across cultures so everyone is invited to back great games that can only be made with the support of a community. We are also exposing new and compelling ideas that everyone can enjoy.

The purpose of The Fine Young Capitalists is to create the means for that production. To allow people that would not have access to the funds or labour to present their ideas and be given the change to have it judged on only its merits.

The creator of these ideas will never lose ownership. All of the art, programming and everything we create will be licensed to them so they can present their idea to anyone that will listen. The only condition is that we get the chance to present it to the public and help them in making the game come to life.

Now, you have the chance to support the creators and so the women in the videogame industry. If you choose you can become a backer of any one of these woman’s game. We want you to be critical and judge which one of the five pitches you think it'd be a success. You will get profit participation in the game for your contribution as well as a copy of the game. Part of every dollar the game makes will go to a charity you choose.

The money that you give will pay for the salary of professional video game developers that will take the creator vision and bring it to life.

The artists will be paid, the creator will receive royalties and you will have backed a project created by a women because you believe that woman can succeed in business.

All of the code for the game will be open source. All of the games support modding. Even if you don’t have a money to spend you can help the production.

Women should be doing more games, should be leading more startups and should be creating more meaningful projects. Likewise technology industries should be more inclusive with women as leaders.

http://www.thefineyoungcapitalists.com/Voting
Totally not about getting more women into the game industry, because they sure believe there is absolutely no problem currently.

http://www.thefineyoungcapitalists.com/Voting
Totally not about getting more women into the game industry, because they sure believe there is absolutely no problem currently.

I know that is what they are talking about but you worded it like this:

You do realized that the whole point of the Fine Young Capitalist is about having video-games to be less male-centered, right?

You did not say industry. Be specific. If you were specific I would agree with you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
What kind of message does that sends us about GG?

Oh, is this the new GG thread?

No, screw gamergate, let it keep getting its own threads locked, not this one.

 Asherian Command wrote:
The entire idea that the games are still sexist is kind of.... dumb.

No, your attempt at dismissing anything said by feminists because they're feminists is dumb. The idea that many writers have, which is "I think you should assume a character is male unless you have a reason for them being female" is sexist-- male is default and men can have any role, women are relegated only to roles where the author thinks women should be in-- and this makes no exceptions for writers in the gaming industry. And specific games can be sexist on their own (lack of) merit, or even if one assumes that most games are not sexist on an individual level, trends can still add up to sexist implications on a broader level taking in to consideration games as a medium. You haven't actually presented an argument against either of these statements, aside from repeating "nuh uh!" for over sixty pages.

 Melissia wrote:
No, screw gamergate, let it keep getting its own threads locked, not this one.

Best let Hybrid know then

. . .even if one assumes that most games are not sexist on an individual level, trends can still add up to sexist implications on a broader level taking in to consideration games as a medium.

Most games aren't sexist, but added up games are sexist?

Did I read that right.

Ever heard the phrase "the sum is greater than the parts?"

I think an issue is the whole. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" thing. (Including the unintentional irony).

A lot of the issue I think is people are equating, "there are not enough female protagonists / of agent / of technical literature-ey term I don't know" with, "there are no female protagonists / of agent / of technical literature-ey term I don't know."

Whereas, others are interpreting things as.

"There are many good, enjoyable female protagonists and things are still improving as time goes on." with "STFU, we don't want cooties in our games, this is a boys club."


Albeit, there is always some jerky jerkfaces around.

 LordofHats wrote:
Ever heard the phrase "the sum is greater than the parts?"

I'm just curious how that'd be quantified.

'Most dogs don't smell, but overall dogs smell'?

I explained it pages ago.

A damsel in distress appearing in a single work isn't necessarily sexist unless we take the absurd position that anyone who ever puts a woman in a position of helplessness is a sexist prick (silly idea).

However if you take 500 works, all by different authors/creators, and say, 425 of them have a damsel in distress, then there might be something of a problem.

I.E. The sum is greater than the parts here can be taken as meaning that the whole of a culture can portray a picture very different from what any individual example amounts too.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, screw gamergate, let it keep getting its own threads locked, not this one.

Best let Hybrid know then

. . .even if one assumes that most games are not sexist on an individual level, trends can still add up to sexist implications on a broader level taking in to consideration games as a medium.

Most games aren't sexist, but added up games are sexist?

Did I read that right.

If a group of writers only added black characters as rappers, gangbangers, and slaves and none of them were willing to write about black people in any other fashion, their works might not individually be racist (though there probably would be examples of racism in the works), but collectively, their works would reek of latent racism.

 Melissia wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, screw gamergate, let it keep getting its own threads locked, not this one.

Best let Hybrid know then

. . .even if one assumes that most games are not sexist on an individual level, trends can still add up to sexist implications on a broader level taking in to consideration games as a medium.

Most games aren't sexist, but added up games are sexist?

Did I read that right.

If a group of writers only added black characters as rappers, gangbangers, and slaves and none of them were willing to write about black people in any other fashion, their works might not individually be racist (though there probably would be examples of racism in the works), but collectively, their works would reek of latent racism.

I wonder if it's off topic to try and think of the last time I played a game with a black man that wasn't a rapper gang member or slave. All I have is gears of war. Most examples I can think of are gang members.

For me it was Remember Me, where the black guy was the owner of a bar and possibly the protagonists past love interest (I didn't quite understand the innuendo between them tbh).

Things seem to have moved on in that front now, for the games I play at least.

The standard trope in play now, is generally the Reasonable Authority Figure.



Although, could there be a danger of that being the new stereotype? At least it's a improvement, I guess.

I wonder if it's off topic to try and think of the last time I played a game with a black man that wasn't a rapper gang member or slave. All I have is gears of war. Most examples I can think of are gang members.

Yeah, Thats where I stop you and everyone in this thread with assuming something like that. One of my favorite games of all time Spec Ops: The Line and The Walking Dead (The walking dead had the main character be African american, spec ops had an African american in a support role to the main character who was white.)

Very often people forget that there are examples of it happening and whinning and complaining it does not happen all the time is just very short sighted, I see it more of as an offense to those game makers who are doing their best to represent people.

No, your attempt at dismissing anything said by feminists because they're feminists is dumb.

I have never said feminists are dumb. I said the third wave feminists have often shown to be ill-researched in certain matters, and just bull rush in with little context for scenes.

The idea that many writers have, which is "I think you should assume a character is male unless you have a reason for them being female" is sexist-- male is default and men can have any role,

I did not say that. Men can not have the role of the maternal mother. They cannot do certain situations. That is ignoring what makes men and women different.

But there has to be a difference between a male or a female character. Having a blank slate character is not as strong as having a determined character with a determined sex. People remember Clemetine better than mr. or mrs. skyrim girl.

Women are relegated only to roles where the author thinks women should be in-- and this makes no exceptions for writers in the gaming industry.

Not all the time. Often times they are trying to illustrate social issues in the world as well. You want them not to illustrate that? To be silent on those matters? That sounds awfully like censorship.

Just because you think that men can't write about social issues does not mean they should or should not.

I remember talking to someone who identified as a feminist and she called a certain scene sexist. Till I pointed out the fallacy in the statement. She thought the scene where Lara Croft is caught by one of the islanders and is supposedly raped.
I asked "How is that sexist?"
"Because why did the game makers put it in?"
"lets see a bunch of savages find a woman, a very pretty woman, what do you think they would do have chips and tea? You can't just call it sexist, because the game makers wanted to make a point, men can beasts. Just ignoring that critique is just as silly as saying that only focusing on lara croft is sexist."

And specific games can be sexist on their own (lack of) merit,

I can agree with that I can list a few games that are incredibly sexist, but I hate those types of games and they are propaganda games.

or even if one assumes that most games are not sexist on an individual level, trends can still add up to sexist implications on a broader level taking in to consideration games as a medium.

False. Thus far there is no implications of games actually have a averse affects on players. There is actually the opposite, gamers are usually more accepting of women period. This generation has been extremely accepting of women. To ignore that is pretty stupid in my honest opinion.

You haven't actually presented an argument against either of these statements, aside from repeating "nuh uh!" for over sixty pages.

I have presented the argument and said that women can be in any game, but it has to make sense to their role. Just as it does for men. They (A woman) can't take on the role of the gruff sarcastic man balls to the wall warrior. They can take the feminine version of that character though and have a woman inherit that. Because males and females reacts differently to the same situations, this means that women in general would react to say a baby differently than a man would. Though there are some cases of this not happening, where the woman does not react or the male does react to the baby. But on average the woman usually reacts to the baby. (Maternal Instinct) But that does not mean it is less badass or more sexual or whatever, its just a character.

It has to make sense in terms of the environment. For example you can't have captain walker replaced with a female version it wouldn't reach the audience it was supposed to reach. Plus alot of people would take offense to the fact that a woman slaughtered and murdered a bunch of american soldiers. And the message would be a little bit different.

In this day and age just the idea of switching the genders for a game just seems silly and kind of sexist.

There are some games that are sexist, but having one trope be very common in them is hardly meaning it is entirely sexist, because if you look at a games as a whole most games woulds be sexist towards males, because the violence taken against men. If you want to raise up one trope, then I will raise up two other tropes, such as the faceless enemy trope or the dude in distress. Where in almost every game we have to save from an enemy we haave no idea who they are but they are mostly male soldiers and we know nothing whether they are good or bad. And we have to save a group of men from some other faceless group.

Lets see how common that is. Just applying the lgoc that has been used that means that every game that is a modern shooter is sexist towards the male gender.

I can't make outlandish statements like that because yet again that is not all games, games do not capitalize on these scenes. (Well they do, and how they glorify war in these types of games)

I think the glorification of war is a problem it is propaganda which is shown to have an averse effect on people. But that is not the same as saying that people's behaviors will be changed.

You may be desensitized to it, but it does not mean your behavior is changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
Things seem to have moved on in that front now, for the games I play at least.

The standard trope in play now, is generally the Reasonable Authority Figure.



Although, could there be a danger of that being the new stereotype? At least it's a improvement, I guess.

I think the only games that have african americans in those roles are sandbox games. Or Call of Jaurez which I discredit it quite often as just as a propaganda bull-

Where the game was so ill-researched that I wanted to smash it to pieces because i thought of it as legitmately sexist and racist.

Along with ride to hell retribution where its message about how to treat women is entirely terrible and borders on the path of psychopathic.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I have never said feminists are dumb.

Try reading the post you're actually responding to instead of making a strawman argument.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I did not say that.

Yes you did. You explicitly and specifically advocated for what I stated.

 Asherian Command wrote:
But there has to be a difference between a male or a female character.

No there doesn't.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Just because you think that men can't write about social issues

Try reading the post you're actually responding to instead of making a strawman argument.

The rest of your post is just freaking tiresome. If the only way a writer can think of a woman is as a rape victim, that writer is trash and should be banned from writing.

nomotog wrote:
I wonder if it's off topic to try and think of the last time I played a game with a black man that wasn't a rapper gang member or slave. All I have is gears of war. Most examples I can think of are gang members.

Broken Age had a black woman protagonist. Team Fortress 2 had the demoman which was not a rapper or a gang member. I am trying to think of other black video game characters. Well, there is Ted McPain from Awesomenauts, that guy is a though action hero reborn through a cloning machine that wears no pant.
There is also Street Fighter's Balrog and Dudley:

There are also the numerous zombies in Resident Evil 5 (if we do consider that they are not voodoo zombie but Romero zombies, and therefore not slaves nor allegory for slavery).
The black alternate skins in Shank/Shank2 do not count, do they?

 Asherian Command wrote:

I wonder if it's off topic to try and think of the last time I played a game with a black man that wasn't a rapper gang member or slave. All I have is gears of war. Most examples I can think of are gang members.

Yeah, Thats where I stop you and everyone in this thread with assuming something like that. One of my favorite games of all time Spec Ops: The Line and The Walking Dead (The walking dead had the main character be African american, spec ops had an African american in a support role to the main character who was white.)

I did forget the walking dead. Lee is a history professor. (Do we ever learn if he was guilty?)

I think the only games that have african americans in those roles are sandbox games.

That could be it. I played almost every sandbox game and they were the ones that came to mind when I pondered.

Shank certainly feels like he was supposed to be a gangbanger though. Or at least that's what the visual style and the name of the game indicated to me when I played it.

The rest of your post is frankly garbage. If the only way a writer can think of a woman is as a rape victim, that writer is trash and should be banned from writing.

Yet again that is not what I said.
He was illustrating a very great point. Especially the lara croft example. But I often say that if your going to go onto that scene it has to have meaning to it. Other than be a throw away scene. It should have repicurations on the main character. (lara)

I never said just use a woman as a rape victim. It has more meaning the more we know about the character. IT illustrates a great point if they use that character. Because it literally could happen to anyone, just using it for the sake of using it is stupid. But using it because you want to talk about a major issue is a good thing. But it needs to be well used.

Yes you did. You explicitly and specifically advocated for what I stated.

I said and I quote

There has to reason to having a different gender.

Which also means, there needs to be a plot reason as to why they are like this. There has to be a good reason as to why they act a certain way. Other than she is a girl and because she can is ill thought out. I am more looking for the reason as to why this character is in this role and not another gender. I am not asking for the reason why she needs to be in the game at all. As you have often mistook as what I have said.

No there doesn't.

There has to be. Just switching it out for another model is stupid. IT doesn't help the cause. Otherwise it is just a skin.But men and women react differently to situations. You can deny that reasoning all you want, but there is a difference. And that should be shown. Not anything big, just something subtle.

Try reading the post you're actually responding to instead of making a dumb strawman argument.

I did, but then I would ask you to read my entire post before attacking my individual points. Because they do not fit with criteria.

Yeah, I think this is where I'm sorta diverging in opinion from Asherian Command a bit now. - No offence intended.

I think the world is too complicated for that. And, especially when talking about games, the protagonist, male or female, is not the average of either sex.

They're an action hero, the amazing, goddamned awesome of awesome exceptions. There's no reason to restrict them by gender roles. In my own view, "The Action Hero" should be the character type, not a subdivision between "The Male Action Hero" and "The Female Action Hero."