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 Chongara wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
He has a hat. Instant +10 to Charisma.

It's a trilby though. That gives a -15 debuff instead.

How can you be hatin' on something so lovable it has it's own video game?

That is not a fedora.

Fedoras have wider brims.
It looks more like a trilby.

Fedora -

Trilby -



Also, flappy bird is overrated.

Melissia wrote:I haven't advocated for hte censorship of past video games

That's not what I was suggesting. I think you want to marginalize existing trends, not just create new ones. To be fair, it's only hinted at in your responses (and if this is just a mischaracterization of your actual point of view, sorry for that), but your "feminist ally" Hybrid Son states quite clearly that this is an intended aim. I think aesthetic choices like designing characters who wear "boobplate" is not only perfectly fine, but also pretty damn cool in lots of settings, for instance, and though you may not intend to do away with that, lots of people who claim to be arguing from your position very much do.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:These designs are clearly in between what belongs to porn games and to “normal” games.

According to what metric, exactly? There's nothing pornographic about either Dragon's Crown or the Neptunia series. They're both mainstream game, not AAA titles, sure, but definitely not indie games or niche games. Or as another example, Morrigan from the very AAA Dragon Age: Origins:



Despite her less than conservative attire, her characterization is quite good and hardly chauvinistic. In any case, I can't imagine many people being put off by her presence, and I can't fathom why I'd be interested in changing the game so as to attract the types of people who would be put off by it to the community I'm a part of.

They ought to go to specific games rather than be mainstream. That is what they say. And, if there is no problem with porn games, there should be no problem with, well, let us call them pin-up games. They will just not be present in mainstream games along with mainstream characters.

I can't accept denying a game a larger audience because of its aesthetic design choices. I'm utterly unconvinced that the visual portrayal of women in games merits any kind of reform, and I'm suspicious of anybody who would throw what are currently regarded as mainstream or even AAA titles into the category of eroge or even in that direction.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
He has a hat. Instant +10 to Charisma.

It's a trilby though. That gives a -15 debuff instead.

How can you be hatin' on something so lovable it has it's own video game?

That is not a fedora.

Fedoras have wider brims.
It looks more like a trilby.

You seem to be confusing the fact the distinction is irrelevant for me being unable to make it. They're grouped for the sake brevity as "Annoying Nerd Hats" lacks a certain flow.

Hey!

Some of us take pride in our annoying nerd hats

I can't accept denying a game a larger audience because of its aesthetic design choices. I'm utterly unconvinced that the visual portrayal of women in games merits any kind of reform, and I'm suspicious of anybody who would throw what are currently regarded as mainstream or even AAA titles into the category of eroge or even in that direction.

OK. I just wish to make it clear what you are saying: By moving away from some consistent "aesthetic design choices" games will "deny a larger audience."

Because if that is the case, It sounds like those "aesthetic design choices" are a very important aspect of the game and not having them will lower your enjoyment of them. And you believe that your point of view is representative of the majority? Am I interpreting your point correctly?

 Kali wrote:

Melissia wrote:I haven't advocated for hte censorship of past video games

That's not what I was suggesting.

Bullgak, that's EXACTLY what you suggested.

 Kali wrote:
you want to destroy those that are already present.

You explicitly suggested that I wanted to destroy and censor games that have already been made.

 Kali wrote:

Melissia wrote:I haven't advocated for hte censorship of past video games

That's not what I was suggesting. I think you want to marginalize existing trends, not just create new ones. To be fair, it's only hinted at in your responses (and if this is just a mischaracterization of your actual point of view, sorry for that), but your "feminist ally" Hybrid Son states quite clearly that this is an intended aim. I think aesthetic choices like designing characters who wear "boobplate" is not only perfectly fine, but also pretty damn cool in lots of settings, for instance, and though you may not intend to do away with that, lots of people who claim to be arguing from your position very much do.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:These designs are clearly in between what belongs to porn games and to “normal” games.

According to what metric, exactly? There's nothing pornographic about either Dragon's Crown or the Neptunia series. They're both mainstream game, not AAA titles, sure, but definitely not indie games or niche games. Or as another example, Morrigan from the very AAA Dragon Age: Origins:



Despite her less than conservative attire, her characterization is quite good and hardly chauvinistic. In any case, I can't imagine many people being put off by her presence, and I can't fathom why I'd be interested in changing the game so as to attract the types of people who would be put off by it to the community I'm a part of.

They ought to go to specific games rather than be mainstream. That is what they say. And, if there is no problem with porn games, there should be no problem with, well, let us call them pin-up games. They will just not be present in mainstream games along with mainstream characters.

I can't accept denying a game a larger audience because of its aesthetic design choices. I'm utterly unconvinced that the visual portrayal of women in games merits any kind of reform, and I'm suspicious of anybody who would throw what are currently regarded as mainstream or even AAA titles into the category of eroge or even in that direction.

I actually don't see anything wrong with that line of thinking.

 AdeptSister wrote:
By moving away from some consistent "aesthetic design choices" games will "deny a larger audience."

No, games that choose that kind of aesthetic would be denied a larger audience because they're purposely shunted into niche or even pornographic markets that will necessarily change the character of those games.

"aesthetic design choices" are a very important aspect of the game and not having them will lower your enjoyment of them.

Certainly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
You suggested that I wanted to destroy and censor games that have already been made.

Simply a failure to effectively communicate on my part, then. I definitely did not at any point suspect you of being intent on revising history.

Kali, thank you for the reply. See, the same "aesthetic design choices" that enhances the experience for you can detract it for me. In my experience, they are sometimes incongruent with the gaming world. Especially when it is only consistent with women characters. Mostly it feels tacked on and does nothing to help the story or gameplay.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Kali, thank you for the reply. See, the same "aesthetic design choices" that enhances the experience for you can detract it for me. In my experience, they are sometimes incongruent with the gaming world. Especially when it is only consistent with women characters. Mostly it feels tacked on and does nothing to help the story or gameplay.

Well if we see a variety of people wearing different clothing sort of like in skyrim. I think that is fine. I mean if there is one character that dresses slutty that is completely fine.

I mean I don't think Aela the huntress from Skyrim recieved hate because she shows her breasts in a way.

If there is a variety of characters with different clothing and different styles I am fine with one character or a minority having females or men in sexualized clothing.

But an entire game doesn't have to have every character regimated into an unreal state of falsehood. I mean look at today, look at how many interesting clothing styles people wear in general.

I always laugh when someone says that a strip club in grand theft auto degrades women. Well its a strip club..... What the hell do you think was going to be there. It adds realism to the game, it adds immersion. I think there is one game that actually has a gay bar.

But people will continue to think strip clubs degrading while forgeting that it is techincally a sport.

Let's not use the "realism" argument in video games. Because that argument is so inconsistent. Strip clubs are in the game because the designer wanted them, not "realism".

 AdeptSister wrote:
Let's not use the "realism" argument in video games. Because that argument is so inconsistent. Strip clubs are in the game because the designer wanted them, not "realism".

Immersive wise it does make sense.

It actually adds to the setting.

It adds nothing of value to most settings. Only game I can think of where it did make sense was Duke Nukem Forever, and even then it only appeared in his unconscious dream rather than as a real place.

Also, I agree with the "realism" argument being inconsistent garbage

And now I'm off again...

 Melissia wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
Your words

Quote me then, where I stated I advocated censoring future games instead of asking for more games that match what I want.

(I'll save you the trouble and inform you that you will not be able to)

I. . . already did?

I haven't advocated for hte censorship of past video games

'Past' video games. Implying you haven't decided not to attempt to censor 'future' games, otherwise 'past' has no place in that sentence.

We might be talking past each other.

Why do people continually equate a request for more variety in content to censorship? Those two things are worlds apart.

 Kali wrote:
There's nothing pornographic about either Dragon's Crown or the Neptunia series.

Just to make sure, you are telling me that you think qualifying this:

a on the same level as a pin-up is an overstatement? I think it is actually an understatement. I think this is embarrassing, and it does not need the help of any “evil invading feminists” to be so.

 Kali wrote:
I can't accept denying a game a larger audience because of its aesthetic design choices.

And what about making aesthetic design choice to accommodate a larger audience, then?
You are apparently into female characters with extremely huge breasts wearing clothing that defy about every laws of physics, while giving the finger to anatomy classes, all for the sake of titillation. Good for you, but if most people are not, how could you expect games with these “aesthetic design choice” being less played than those with more mainstream designs?

 LordofHats wrote:
Why do people continually equate a request for more variety in content to censorship? Those two things are worlds apart.

Because of the second paragraph?

 Melissia wrote:

But if you insist on me reiterating (can't blame you with something like seventy pages to read through), I want games to stop lazily defaulting to male when writing characters (I have offered solutions on how to do this in an unbiased manner, in fact); I also desire for games to allow for more customization of the player character, especially (but not exclusively) RPGs and multiplayer-only or multiplayer-heavy games like most first-person shooters, two genres I'm more heavily invested in (but there's no reason that this could not be expanded to other genres; the RTS genre, for example, would need to do little more than to change pronouns when referring to "the commander", similar to how Stronghold 2's greeting changes to "Greetings, Lady Mel" when I enter my name at the start).

That's the topic I have focused on in this thread, and the topic that I find most important. The sexualization/sexuality in games topic I find to be a secondary (but still important) concern; certainly I believe developers need to stop focusing on sexuality as the only personality trait women have; the woman should be defined by what badass/good/evil/etc thing she does, not what she looks like-- that's just lazy and boring. A good step in that is to stop using cheap and lazy titillation tactics in character design in every single major release game, but that alone won't do everything that needs to be done.

The first paragraph is great, I can get behind that.

The second paragraph is: 'stop' this, 'stop' that

I think you're taking her words to a literal extreme she doesn't intend.

 LordofHats wrote:
Why do people continually equate a request for more variety in content to censorship? Those two things are worlds apart.

*Shrug* because people are interesting folks that like to take things to extremes for no apparent reason other than they are people O.o

 LordofHats wrote:
I think you're taking her words to a literal extreme she doesn't intend.

These aren't a request for more variety:

developers need to stop focusing on sexuality as the only personality trait women have

stop using cheap and lazy titillation tactics in character design in every single major release game

that alone won't do everything that needs to be done

In fact, I'd like evidence of games where women have only 'sexy' as a personality trait. Duke Nukem is about the only one I can think of, and one example does not a trend make.

Also, 'every single major release game' uses cheap and lazy titillation tactics? I haven't played any of the recent Call of Duty games, but are they now set on nude beaches or something?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think this is embarrassing, and it does not need the help of any “evil invading feminists” to be so.

Right, but then your opinion isn't informing the development process at present, which is why this character exists in a mainstream game.

And what about making aesthetic design choice to accommodate a larger audience, then?

I'm not interested in accommodating a larger audience, as I've said several times already. I don't view more people playing games as a good thing, and in fact I see it as quite contradictory to both my interests and the interests of most "hardcore" gamers.

You are apparently into female characters with extremely huge breasts wearing clothing that defy about every laws of physics,

Hey man I appreciate the DFC too.

while giving the finger to anatomy classes, all for the sake of titillation.

Rather than simply that, I think this character design is cool and fun. More importantly, I see nothing wrong with it.

Good for you, but if most people are not, how could you expect games with these “aesthetic design choice” being less played than those with more mainstream designs?

As I said, these two aren't examples of AAA titles, but they are absolutely in the mainstream. I did provide a AAA example in the form of Morrigan from Dragon Age: Origins, whose attire is even more scandalous than the Sorceress'. This game is almost universally hailed as a popular and critical success, and is in fact quite a lot more popular than either Dragon's Crown or the Neptunia series.

In fact, I'd like evidence of games where women have only 'sexy' as a personality trait. Duke Nukem is about the only one I can think of, and one example does not a trend make.

Also, 'every single major release game' uses cheap and lazy titillation tactics? I haven't played any of the recent Call of Duty games, but are they now set on nude beaches or something?

I could think of a few. But in terms of mainstream nope

I'm not interested in accommodating a larger audience, as I've said several times already. I don't view more people playing games as a good thing, and in fact I see it as quite contradictory to both my interests and the interests of most "hardcore" gamers.

Okay let me say. No. I don't want that at all. I want to diversify not make the gamer community more hardcore

As I said, these two aren't examples of AAA titles, but they are absolutely in the mainstream. I did provide a AAA example in the form of Morrigan from Dragon Age: Origins, whose attire is even more scandalous than the Sorceress'. This game is almost universally hailed as a popular and critical success, and is in fact quite a lot more popular than either Dragon's Crown or the Neptunia series.

Well in honesty its fine to have them, but they shouldn't be that common.

Rather than simply that, I think this character design is cool and fun. More importantly, I see nothing wrong with it.

I would agree. But there are some wrong designs like Ivy from Soul Calibur.

 Kali wrote:
I'm not interested in accommodating a larger audience, as I've said several times already.

Yet you care about the games you like staying mainstream rather than becoming niche. That is a bit self-contradictory. If the games you like accommodate only a niche public, it will be niche. If it accommodates a larger audience, it will be mainstream. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Late to the plate again,

don't get the issue with nipple armor as it has been used in ancient times

I think most people are actually OK with form fitting nipple armor.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Late to the plate again,

don't get the issue with nipple armor as it has been used in ancient times

I laugh when ever i remember people actually wore that. I mean knights were terrifying but romans looked kind of silly.

That armor is Greek.

Romans looked BA;

 LordofHats wrote:
That armor is Greek.

Romans looked BA;

My mistake. Greeks. Looked silly. Except for the Spartans and certain groups of soldiers.

Offtopic thought: Now to figure out what the Carthaginians.
Reminds me... If female roman legionares existed what would they look like.

I think it's tacky and ugly from an aesthetic stance, but I feel that way about gold/bronze as the primary armor color to begin with so that probably doesn't help.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I think you're taking her words to a literal extreme she doesn't intend.

These aren't a request for more variety:

Asking for game devs to stop using sexuality as the sole personality trait for women characters is asking for more variety. There's more to women than our vaginas, you know. We're people, and should be written like actual people.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do people think of male armour that clearly has pecs? Like say Cadians or even SW storm troopers? Is it as wrong as the female boob plate?

I think it looks ugly and dumb. Yes, even when it's roman


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:
The campaign must be for equality for all, not just one sex.

Then start your own damn movement instead of piggybacking off the feminist movement. Because that would indicate you're serious instead of just trying to place all the burden on women in order to belittle us and be a lazy, privileged white dude.

No one is placing any burden on you, oh goddess Melissia, I was being sarcastic. Impossible to convey without a tag, I now realize, so I'll try to attach one the next time I am doing so.

I wonder, is the air thin up on that exceedingly high horse you're riding or are your opinions so jaded that you have to post irrational bs?

Edit: I don't need to piggyback of of the feminist movement, I'm a white male, I have everything I'll ever need because of that fact. Now, go make me a sandwich. /sarcasm