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Given how often I've had people actually and seriously argue to me that feminism is evil because it focuses on the rights of women, and given the second part of your post, I am not really convinced that the notion that you are being sarcastic really makes it any better...

Most women just want their female characters to stop being reduced to "the Love interest' or the Lady in breast armor and High Heels trying to be bad ass or just the overly sexualized centerpiece that grabs male gamers by their libidos to get into the game.

 Melissia wrote:
Given how often I've had people actually and seriously argue to me that feminism is evil because it focuses on the rights of women, and given the second part of your post, I am not really convinced that the notion that you are being sarcastic really makes it any better...

I don't think it is evil.

Like every movement there is a extremist side to it. And that part of it is evil

But that is like every movement. Take the equality movement, if taken to the extremes.... IT can be extremely evil.

I think any movement is evil if taken to its extremes is a problem.

I think that people are just being stupid.

 LordofHats wrote:
That armor is Greek.

Romans looked BA;

Roman officers also wore the ab armor sometimes. They inherited the tradition from the Greeks.

 Melissia wrote:
Given how often I've had people actually and seriously argue to me that feminism is evil because it focuses on the rights of women, and given the second part of your post, I am not really convinced that the notion that you are being sarcastic really makes it any better...

I've got ZERO problems with feminists. Every side needs a group solely dedicated to that groups advancement, regardless of what their goals are, it's a dedication that I can respect if nothing else.

What I have a problem with is when feminists blame men for everything; like women didn't exist for the same amount of time or something. Y'know what? Don't like how something is and you can change it? fething change it. Stop bitching at the rest of the world to do it for you and for the love of everything good and great in this world, stop blaming 'the men' for whatever gakky predicament your lives are currently in. I sure as gak didn't tell that manager not to hire you because you're a woman, or tell that game dev to give every female character a supporting role with low cut armor, or make most, if not all, primary heroes male.

Again, I've got no issue with the expansion of equality for women. Never have, never will. What I take issue with are those that bitch and then refuse to do anything about it.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Don't like how something is and you can change it? fething change it.

... which is why feminist gamer groups are lobbying companies to change the way they write-- to try to get it changed.

 Melissia wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
The campaign must be for equality for all, not just one sex.

Then start your own damn movement instead of piggybacking off the feminist movement. Because that would indicate you're serious instead of just trying to place all the burden on women in order to belittle us and be a lazy, privileged white dude.

No, that was bitterness. There's been 76 pages, and we're still rehashing a lot of the same old conversations :/

 Melissia wrote:
No, that was bitterness. There's been 76 pages, and we're still rehashing a lot of the same old conversations :/

But what about the Menz Melissa? Who will save them?

 Melissia wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Don't like how something is and you can change it? fething change it.

... which is why feminist gamer groups are lobbying companies to change the way they write-- to try to get it changed.

Good, that's bound to get things changed.

Now, at the same point, would you have a game company completely re-write a game's story from a male lead to a female lead just because?

Edit: And no, none of this was meant as sarcasm.

 Frankenberry wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Don't like how something is and you can change it? fething change it.

... which is why feminist gamer groups are lobbying companies to change the way they write-- to try to get it changed.

Good, that's bound to get things changed.

Now, at the same point, would you have a game company completely re-write a game's story from a male lead to a female lead just because?

Edit: And no, none of this was meant as sarcasm.

I don't think she means that. Yes it would be nice to see more women in games be the main protagonist. BUT it more of the degrading way they are being portrayed.

So the basic point of contention here is not that one side is against more, well written female characters. As far as I can recall from reading the thread, basically everyone is on board with that.
We are simply seeing an issue where one side is feels like the other side isn't simply saying "Write more good characters - especially females" but is instead saying "Write more good female characters and stop creating what I feel to be bad female characters.
Right?


Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

We actually already had the female enemy talk.

My plan has ever been about adding more good female characters. Good is a subjective thing. I think the way you do it is to just have a lot of female characters. Some will be good, some will be bad, some will be just plain odd.

 Bromsy wrote:
So the basic point of contention here is not that one side is against more, well written female characters. As far as I can recall from reading the thread, basically everyone is on board with that.
We are simply seeing an issue where one side is feels like the other side isn't simply saying "Write more good characters - especially females" but is instead saying "Write more good female characters and stop creating what I feel to be bad female characters.
Right?


Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

I'd agree wiith that.

We are all gamers it would just be nice to have us all included at the same levels. This doesn't mean there needs to be a quota for everything. But it would be nice to see more female characters than the main recognizable handful we have now.

nomotog wrote:
We actually already had the female enemy talk.

My plan has ever been about adding more good female characters. Good is a subjective thing. I think the way you do it is to just have a lot of female characters. Some will be good, some will be bad, some will be just plain odd.

I may have just drunkenly skimmed past something, but from what I remember - almost all the 'talk' was about female bosses, and/or sexualized female enemies being a bad thing.

I just want to know where people stand on having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes.

How about when it comes to factions like Fallout's NCR? They have pretty much a 50/50 chance for soldiers to be female, a bunch are randomly generated. But there's this one place called Forlorn hope that apparently has the highest attrition rates and there are no nameless female soldiers there.

This okay?

 Bromsy wrote:

nomotog wrote:
We actually already had the female enemy talk.

My plan has ever been about adding more good female characters. Good is a subjective thing. I think the way you do it is to just have a lot of female characters. Some will be good, some will be bad, some will be just plain odd.

I may have just drunkenly skimmed past something, but from what I remember - almost all the 'talk' was about female bosses, and/or sexualized female enemies being a bad thing.

I just want to know where people stand on having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes.

My take was that enemies are NPCs with the most agency and that baring women from being NPCs kind of pushes them into more passive roles. Basically it's not fair if women can't be enemies.

Though I will go ahead and present a counter argument because I love being complicated. i am naming this idea the captain pimp worry. The name comes COH. When COV was releases, the mastermind didn't have any female minions.One of the worries was that if they allowed female minions then they might get some player making a character called captain pimp and naming all their minions B**** and Ho. Basically there is this worry that the player might do something offensive when given the opportunity.

 Lotet wrote:
How about when it comes to factions like Fallout's NCR? They have pretty much a 50/50 chance for soldiers to be female, a bunch are randomly generated. But there's this one place called Forlorn hope that apparently has the highest attrition rates and there are no nameless female soldiers there.

This okay?

Okay for what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

nomotog wrote:
We actually already had the female enemy talk.

My plan has ever been about adding more good female characters. Good is a subjective thing. I think the way you do it is to just have a lot of female characters. Some will be good, some will be bad, some will be just plain odd.

I may have just drunkenly skimmed past something, but from what I remember - almost all the 'talk' was about female bosses, and/or sexualized female enemies being a bad thing.

I just want to know where people stand on having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes.

My take was that enemies are NPCs with the most agency and that baring women from being NPCs kind of pushes them into more passive roles. Basically it's not fair if women can't be enemies.

Though I will go ahead and present a counter argument because I love being complicated. i am naming this idea the captain pimp worry. The name comes COH. When COV was releases, the mastermind didn't have any female minions.One of the worries was that if they allowed female minions then they might get some player making a character called captain pimp and naming all their minions B**** and Ho. Basically there is this worry that the player might do something offensive when given the opportunity.

I'd agree with the first part.

As far as your counter argument, I'd say that falls under the 'getting the bad with the good'. You can't take away choices from people in order to prevent others from being offended. That was lies madness. If you did that, then you must give equal credence to people who want to exclude women from video games because they are offended by women winning at anything or whatever that argument would be. Otherwise you'd just be selectively choosing who it's okay to offend and who it isn't. I say give everyone all the choices, and let people be offended if they must.

 Bromsy wrote:

 Lotet wrote:
How about when it comes to factions like Fallout's NCR? They have pretty much a 50/50 chance for soldiers to be female, a bunch are randomly generated. But there's this one place called Forlorn hope that apparently has the highest attrition rates and there are no nameless female soldiers there.

This okay?

Okay for what?

Having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes?

Bah, forget about it.

 Lotet wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

 Lotet wrote:
How about when it comes to factions like Fallout's NCR? They have pretty much a 50/50 chance for soldiers to be female, a bunch are randomly generated. But there's this one place called Forlorn hope that apparently has the highest attrition rates and there are no nameless female soldiers there.

This okay?

Okay for what?

Having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes?

Bah, forget about it.

I was asking what people's opinions were. If we as a whole believe there are not enough good female protagonists, and we in general want more; do we believe there are enough 'good' female antagonists, and do we want more? I am interested.

 Bromsy wrote:
I was asking what people's opinions were. If we as a whole believe there are not enough good female protagonists, and we in general want more; do we believe there are enough 'good' female antagonists, and do we want more? I am interested.

Were you? I saw a different question.

 Bromsy wrote:
Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

 Bromsy wrote:
I just want to know where people stand on having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes.

A question about goons, not bosses or heroes. I guess I was just focusing on the parts you didn't intend to be focused on.

 Lotet wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I was asking what people's opinions were. If we as a whole believe there are not enough good female protagonists, and we in general want more; do we believe there are enough 'good' female antagonists, and do we want more? I am interested.

Were you? I saw a different question.

 Bromsy wrote:
Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

 Bromsy wrote:
I just want to know where people stand on having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes.

A question about goons, not bosses or heroes. I guess I was just focusing on the parts you didn't intend to be focused on.

No, you threw out an example of a thing. You never actually stated an opinion, and the example you put out was of a thing not really related to what I brought up. The NCR are not antagonists. They are possible antagonists, maybe, but they are pretty clearly not designed that way.
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say, based on the tone of your posts. Especially the last one, where you seem to think I am trying to play a trick or something and you cleverly saw through it or somesuch nonsense. Here. Take my original post

So the basic point of contention here is not that one side is against more, well written female characters. As far as I can recall from reading the thread, basically everyone is on board with that.
We are simply seeing an issue where one side is feels like the other side isn't simply saying "Write more good characters - especially females" but is instead saying "Write more good female characters and stop creating what I feel to be bad female characters.
Right?


Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

and answer the question within it. With your actual opinion. And explain your opinion, so I have some context as to what you are talking about. Or don't, I don't really care. But the little snippets of your internal monologue you have been posting have been less than useful.

 Bromsy wrote:
Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

Yes, totally.

Hey, I don't know about you but I never liked the NCR. I've replayed that game several times and they are the only faction I haven't won Hoover Dam for.

My example was supposed to be what I saw as a good example of what I wanted. It led to a generally gender neutral faction but one that wouldn't use women in the most hostile battle front. One where everyone dies a lot. But they are thrown into every other combat situation.

And in my last post I said that I must have misinterpreted you. I don't know why you're so mad at that. Maybe I should have apologized? Though i doubt it could make it through the perceived 'tone'.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

Yes, totally.

Word.

 Melissia wrote:
Asking for game devs to stop using sexuality as the sole personality trait for women characters is asking for more variety. There's more to women than our vaginas, you know. We're people, and should be written like actual people.

I do know that women are not walking vaginas - what AAA games have women where their sole personality trait is 'sexy'?

The only ones that come readily to mind are Aphrodite from God of War, and the twins in Duke Nukem (or basically anyone in Duke Nukem)

But my memory isn't stellar, and I haven't played every game released, so there might be heap I don't know about.

 Lotet wrote:
My example was supposed to be what I saw as a good example of what I wanted. It led to a generally gender neutral faction but one that wouldn't use women in the most hostile battle front. One where everyone dies a lot. But they are thrown into every other combat situation.

Why would we want that? Women can die too.

 Bromsy wrote:
I may have just drunkenly skimmed past something, but from what I remember - almost all the 'talk' was about female bosses, and/or sexualized female enemies being a bad thing.

I just want to know where people stand on having reasonably attired women there to be shot up alongside all the miscellaneous dudes.

The only well attired (businesswear right?) female mooks I recall from a game were ones in GTA Vice City, one of the later missions I think.

It stood out because apart from that it was male mooks all the way before and after. It was a change.

And because I can't help but think of it when I think of GTA Vice City:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
Oh, and as for people who really want more female protagonists, are you also advocating for more females to be enemies? And I don't mean bosses, with backstories and spin-off comics and crap... I mean random mooks with little to no story at all to serve as cannon fodder.

Yes, totally.

Yep, more nameless female enemies. It would be a really easy way to broaden the portrayal of women in the game.