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2014/10/30 11:46:34
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hm, I watched it. Just seemed to be a panel of folks talking about how people are over reacting, being dismissive of problems, exaggeration, misinterpreting the other side, being told they're being oppressed, rabble rousing and so on. For both sides of course.
Some line at the end said something along the lines that they're not anti-women, they're anti-authoritarian. Sounds clever, but I'll never use that line.
Well, I agree with the video, but I don't see much to discuss about. I probably missed why Asherian decided to post it. Why was that?
2014/10/30 17:34:43
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I've not watched the video, but I can certainly understand the desire to find a video you broadly agree with it, post it and not really want to say much further.
Because, generally speaking, I am terrible at getting my own opinions and point of view across in things. So much so, that even in text, I get very flustered when trying to explain myself on any opinions, even something like 'the sky is blue.'
So much so, I could very much see the appeal of saying, "my opinions broadly agree with this guy here, who is a far more eloquent speaker than me, what do you think?"
So, for example, for me, I tend to find myself agreeing with TotalBiscuit on a lot of gaming matters.
2014/10/30 17:40:40
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The argument I hear from the pro women should continue to be portrayed as scantily clad trophies is the fact that most gamers are male and the game companies shouldn't give in to the demands of a minority and only do what the majority wants. In addition they say that this does not cause mysgony because it is the equivalent of saying that guns in games cause gun violence.
2014/10/30 18:33:11
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
ATXMILEY wrote: The argument I hear from the pro women should continue to be portrayed as scantily clad trophies is the fact that most gamers are male and the game companies shouldn't give in to the demands of a minority and only do what the majority wants. In addition they say that this does not cause mysgony because it is the equivalent of saying that guns in games cause gun violence.
Anyone who poses that as their argument is an imbecile.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/10/30 18:54:05
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Compel wrote: I've not watched the video, but I can certainly understand the desire to find a video you broadly agree with it, post it and not really want to say much further.
Because, generally speaking, I am terrible at getting my own opinions and point of view across in things. So much so, that even in text, I get very flustered when trying to explain myself on any opinions, even something like 'the sky is blue.'
So much so, I could very much see the appeal of saying, "my opinions broadly agree with this guy here, who is a far more eloquent speaker than me, what do you think?"
So, for example, for me, I tend to find myself agreeing with TotalBiscuit on a lot of gaming matters.
f you want to talk about something, then you have to talk about it. You can't just drop a video and leave. You know this too.
Shesh.
Okay my main reasoning was this:
I was about to leave for class and I didn't have enough time to collect my thoughts on the matter. I would of written it up. But I have an extremely busy time table that I have to keep to. If I don't then a lot of my projects get left behind.
Now the main reasoning I was posting it was it was an alternate look. I do not exactly agree with everything said.
Though I do agree with their look at the studies. And thinking critically about them. They talked about the difference between objectification and self empowerment.
The example with do you want to be a rouge great warrior or the peasent who shovels gak everyday? Its an empowerment fantasy. Not a symbolism for life in a fantasy game. It can be. But it has to be cleverly written and made in an interesting way. For a book thats a great idea, but for a game. It doesn't work.
The gave the example of how women are treated online. Saying that is probably a bigger issue. Also the issue that there are far too many male characters that lack quality and effort, but the women being more memorable than the men. It doesn't matter if your game has a female or a male. If it lacks the writing capabilities to leave an impact you have failed your customers. The thing is that games are meant to entertain.
They also touched on what women want to see in games. Every time someone says that men need to wear bikini's in order to be sexualized have clearly no idea what that actually means. So let me get this straight it is fine to have a birly muscular shirtless man with only leather on his legs and crouch and that's considered empowerment. But its objectification to have a woman in a bikini? seriously? Double standards much?
The other problem is how woman in games are treated. Like girl gamers and the sexy gamers. And how that people often see girls as filthy casuals. This is a stigma that has only happened until recently. Way back when, gender was not an issue. It has only become an issue recently. Way back when it was shameful to be a gamer period. Especially for men. It was seen as nerdy, a death sentence to your entire social life. There were so few gamers back then that it was hard to find people who could play games with each other.
It wasn't until the 1990s that games started to develop this stigma/idea that video games are a boys club.
It is because of how it is marketed and many other factors. (Including the prominence of feminism and the stigma that surrounds that)
Notice the word stigma? Well that is the most adequate way to explain these situations.
I know many female designers, animators, programmers, writers, artists, and gamers. And they can confirm the following:
Women are thought to be casual gamers only.
They are not attracted to FPSs
They are only attracted to gathering resource games. (Like Diner Dash, or Farmville etc)
They are constantly asked at EB games. "So you buying this for your boyfriend?"
They are seen as inadequate.
And they said that it only happens online.
When they are with their guy friends. The veil dissappears. When they are playing with their guy friends together online. that problem is gone. Anonymous gaming sessions with people you don't know have always had that problem. Because people believe they can get away from stuff online. That they can say whatever they want and get away with it.
------
Now back onto the topic again. Woman are under represented in terms of triple A games. But who the hell cares. Most Triple A Games are medicore at best. The best games are usually created by smaller companies that are not attached to a big brand name. Or your name is Valve and you can spend however many years developing a game because you literally make bank from one of your assets.
People forget about those games that feature female characters because its not popular among the triple A lineup. But lets face it most female characters in games right now that are in prominent roles are more less More Memorable and more interesting to play than the slew of that gruff military guy with a gun.
I mean throughout gaming we have seen the market respond by making more female centered games. They have more female characters. I mean gears of war for a very long time didn't have playable females in it, until Gears of War 3.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/30 19:10:14
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
ATXMILEY wrote: The argument I hear from the pro women should continue to be portrayed as scantily clad trophies is the fact that most gamers are male and the game companies shouldn't give in to the demands of a minority and only do what the majority wants. In addition they say that this does not cause mysgony because it is the equivalent of saying that guns in games cause gun violence.
Anyone who poses that as their argument is an imbecile.
I guess you woudn't think too highly of some of Sigvatr's posts.
2014/10/30 19:11:40
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Just to clarify I'm not saying you're an imbecile (although I strongly disagree with you on most things but that doesn't necessarily mean I think you're dumb), but I just read your post about not catering to minorities if it doesn't create a higher profit which reminded me of one of the points
ATXMILEY brought up, here's the quote (underlined the part I thought was most relevant):
ATXMILEY wrote: The argument I hear from the pro women should continue to be portrayed as scantily clad trophies is the fact that most gamers are male and the game companies shouldn't give in to the demands of a minority and only do what the majority wants. In addition they say that this does not cause mysgony because it is the equivalent of saying that guns in games cause gun violence.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/30 19:23:08
2014/10/30 19:23:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: Every time someone says that men need to wear bikini's in order to be sexualized have clearly no idea what that actually means. So let me get this straight it is fine to have a birly muscular shirtless man with only leather on his legs and crouch and that's considered empowerment. But its objectification to have a woman in a bikini? seriously? Double standards much?
I saw this stupid argument way too many times. I am sure you can already tell what I a going to say, and which links I am going to post, can you not? Do I need to say the same thing and post the same links?
Asherian Command wrote: Now back onto the topic again. Woman are under represented in terms of triple A games. But who the hell cares. Most Triple A Games are medicore at best.
Where do you draw the line between AAA and not AAA? For instance, is Smite AAA?
Asherian Command wrote: People forget about those games that feature female characters because its not popular among the triple A lineup.
Even in non-AAA game, the proportion of female characters is very low.
Asherian Command wrote: But lets face it most female characters in games right now that are in prominent roles are more less More Memorable and more interesting to play than the slew of that gruff military guy with a gun.
I am sure you can still list more memorable male characters than memorable female characters. Try it, honestly.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/30 20:47:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The gave the example of how women are treated online. Saying that is probably a bigger issue. Also the issue that there are far too many male characters that lack quality and effort, but the women being more memorable than the men. It doesn't matter if your game has a female or a male. If it lacks the writing capabilities to leave an impact you have failed your customers. The thing is that games are meant to entertain.
The other problem is how woman in games are treated. Like girl gamers and the sexy gamers. And how that people often see girls as filthy casuals. This is a stigma that has only happened until recently. Way back when, gender was not an issue. It has only become an issue recently. Way back when it was shameful to be a gamer period. Especially for men. It was seen as nerdy, a death sentence to your entire social life. There were so few gamers back then that it was hard to find people who could play games with each other.
It wasn't until the 1990s that games started to develop this stigma/idea that video games are a boys club.
It is because of how it is marketed and many other factors. (Including the prominence of feminism and the stigma that surrounds that)
Notice the word stigma? Well that is the most adequate way to explain these situations.
I know many female designers, animators, programmers, writers, artists, and gamers. And they can confirm the following:
Women are thought to be casual gamers only.
They are not attracted to FPSs
They are only attracted to gathering resource games. (Like Diner Dash, or Farmville etc)
They are constantly asked at EB games. "So you buying this for your boyfriend?"
They are seen as inadequate.
And they said that it only happens online.
When they are with their guy friends. The veil dissappears. When they are playing with their guy friends together online. that problem is gone. Anonymous gaming sessions with people you don't know have always had that problem. Because people believe they can get away from stuff online. That they can say whatever they want and get away with it.
You know the way women are treated online maybe the bigger issue. Actually it is the bigger problem. I have no idea how to fix it though.
2014/10/30 21:09:50
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Yeah, if more people-- and more specifically, more men-- spoke up and just said "that's not cool", it WOULD make a big difference.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/30 21:21:59
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Even in non-AAA game, the proportion of female characters is very low.
I work in the industry. That is hilariously wrong.
Where do you draw the line between AAA and not AAA? For instance, is Smite AAA?
If a game has a budget well over 500,000$ dollars then it is triple A. A indie game usually costs 15,000$ to make.
I saw this stupid argument way too many times. I am sure you can already tell what I a going to say, and which links I am going to post, can you not? Do I need to say the same thing and post the same links?
Yup, and I've seen your argument many times. And I disagree with it. ITs your opinion you can have it. But it is my counter argument as I know people who think that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: I made a long post about that a while ago with my suggestions on it.
Short version is, if an jerk starts being a jerk. Just pipe and say, "dude, that's not cool."
Don't start 'white knighting' or anything well, quite frankly, creepy like that. Just a simple. "that's not cool" followed by citing Wheaton's Law.
Then get back to killing stuff or saving the galaxy or whatever you were doing.
basically. Peer pressure in the right situations is fantastic. In this situation it works wonders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 21:26:22
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/30 21:30:29
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Yeah, if I remember well, you somehow kinda work in the industry or something. Like, you worked on some game, whose name I do not know, but you were not mentioned in the credit for some reason. That sure gives you total authority to say I am hilariously wrong.
Asherian Command wrote: If a game has a budget well over 500,000$ dollars then it is triple A. A indie game usually costs 15,000$ to make.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/30 21:34:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
White Knighting has no set definition, it can mean almost anything at this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: Short version. Take the 'dude that's not cool' to an extreme, then add in a bit of e-stalking and general creepy potential serial-killerness.
To many people who harass women, just saying "dude that's not cool" is "white knighting".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 21:36:10
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/30 21:52:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Compel wrote: Short version. Take the 'dude that's not cool' to an extreme, then add in a bit of e-stalking and general creepy potential serial-killerness.
Might need the long version on that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/30 21:57:28
2014/10/30 22:06:41
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: White Knighting has no set definition, it can mean almost anything at this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: Short version. Take the 'dude that's not cool' to an extreme, then add in a bit of e-stalking and general creepy potential serial-killerness.
To many people who harass women, just saying "dude that's not cool" is "white knighting".
Well those who defend harassment are idiots. No surprise there.
Yeah, if I remember well, you somehow kinda work in the industry or something. Like, you worked on some game, whose name I do not know, but you were not mentioned in the credit for some reason. That sure gives you total authority to say I am hilariously wrong.
Well because I have studied it more than you. I am involved in it. I have sources. I have people in the industry. I know more than you think
This issue is relatively new and is not as big as people make it out to be Hybrid. And I will stand opposite of your stance. Because it is completely a radical move. Mine is equal representation . Yours is over indulging. yours is an extreme of my point of view. Take moderation. Not extremes in this case.
We need better female characters and better writing.
A guy not wearing a shirt all the time in a movie is objectification is pandering to the female crowd. A woman with a bikini is pandering to men. That is fine. But saying that in order for men to be equal to women they have to wear something like that? Objectification means treating a person as a thing, without regard to their dignity.
But the thing is that I find it objectification if a man removes his shirt. That is pandering to a female crowd. And thats not bad.
A woman has revealing clothing. Oh so okay?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 22:46:35
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/30 22:44:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Especially if you include the ones that defender harassers by dismissing their existence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 22:48:00
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/30 22:48:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
If a game has a budget well over 500,000$ dollars then it is triple A. A indie game usually costs 15,000$ to make.
Whaaat? I'm not usually one to yell "Source" but source. Assuming folks are getting paid enough to cram themselves in crapsack apartment, and live off ramen with no insurance (~$10/hr, outside the boonies) even with a lean project team of 3.. that buys you all of 3 months of time from concept to shipment. Assuming no other costs but "Paying employee wages".
For these numbers to work, your net expenses for your folks working would have to be below minimum wage and you'd have to be getting your assets and tech for free.
15k buys you a dev team of "Just me, the person who came up with the idea for the game - I live with my parents for free". $15k is nothing, I cannot comprehend even the shittiest game being made for that much even if your only cost is feeding and clothing yourself.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/30 23:02:22
2014/10/30 23:37:08
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
If a game has a budget well over 500,000$ dollars then it is triple A. A indie game usually costs 15,000$ to make.
Whaaat? I'm not usually one to yell "Source" but source. Assuming folks are getting paid enough to cram themselves in crapsack apartment, and live off ramen with no insurance (~$10/hr, outside the boonies) even with a lean project team of 3.. that buys you all of 3 months of time from concept to shipment. Assuming no other costs but "Paying employee wages".
For these numbers to work, your net expenses for your folks working would have to be below minimum wage and you'd have to be getting your assets and tech for free.
15k buys you a dev team of "Just me, the person who came up with the idea for the game - I live with my parents for free". $15k is nothing, I cannot comprehend even the shittiest game being made for that much even if your only cost is feeding and clothing yourself.
15k is the cost for the game in general. For the purposes of this discussion I am not including the cost of staff. The most expensive bits are the staff. 500k is an expected cost. I meant to add another 0. Most indie devs DO not have the funding of a triple A studio nor would I quantify It is hard to quantify a game companies cost. As each game's budget is widely different depending on the tools used. I meant to say. 500k is the usual cost for a game (Hypothetically). 1.5 Million is an Triple A game.
Most indies are not even that big, usually. Usually around 1-7 people (Average cost is around 100k for a game designer) But most likely in order to save costs 50k is usually the expected cost for a developer etc. But most indie game designers do not even get close to 500k. As a 3ds MAX is around $5000, a photoshop liscense is around $3000, Z-Brush is around 795$, a render farm is even more expensive. The higher the rendering capabilities the better a render will be. The most amount of money spent is usually on computers that can render. This can add up to a ridiculous amount. And the funny thing. Most Indies do no t have access to any of these capabilities for the most part. The most popular is Java Script. You can do on a very cheap budget and still make a good game. The thing is most indie games are not third person or first person games. They are usually side scrollers or hell a card game.
The fact is that there are some indie companies that can afford a render farm and 3ds max in bulk. It is usually just a group of people that have gotten together and just made a game. That is the usual indie dev. That doesn't mean that they don't have budgets. But infact most indie devs lose money on a game. They rarely ever make their money back.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/31 00:24:26
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
ATXMILEY wrote: The argument I hear from the pro women should continue to be portrayed as scantily clad trophies is the fact that most gamers are male and the game companies shouldn't give in to the demands of a minority and only do what the majority wants. In addition they say that this does not cause mysgony because it is the equivalent of saying that guns in games cause gun violence.
Anyone who poses that as their argument is an imbecile.
I guess you woudn't think too highly of some of Sigvatr's posts.
It is imbecilic because it is an argument based on a false premise, one that has been disproven by several studies in recent years. In 2012, a study done by the ESA demonstrated that 47% of gamers, across all platforms, were women. So, yes, that's a "minority", but it's nearly half of the playerbase. Any industry that fails to cater to half it's consumer base is an industry that is destined to fail. So, yes, to believe that women are some microscopic percentage of the gaming population is imbecilic.
A 2013 study, also by the ESA, indicated that the overall population of female gamers had dropped slightly (to 45%), but that women over the age of 18 accounted for 31% of the total player-base, while boys 17 and under accounted for only 19% of the player base. This indicates that only 36% of the player-base is male and 18 or older... not the "majority" of gamers, and only marginally more-numerous than their female counterparts.
A later study (2013), done by Variety Magazine, would demonstrate that, of the 45% of the player-base that is female, 30% of them were playing more-violent video games, with 20% of that number specifically playing Call of Duty.
A study from the same source that year, in its examination of demographics, demonstrated that 70% of females, aged 12 to 24, played video games, while 61% of the female population, aged 45 to 64 played video games, while only 57% of men in the same age-bracket played video games.
To believe that the "average" gamer is male, 18 years of age or older, is a fallacy... but it is a belief that both aspects within the industry and a certain sub-set of players cling to. Which is akin to holding a "Young Earth" belief. It is to deny proven facts and attempt to shape the discussion around what you "believe" to be true, rather than the objective facts. Which is, in a word, stupid.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/10/31 01:49:45
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
And how many of those female gamers are playing Candy Crush?
Don't get me wrong, I know wimminz play other games and I am not saying "Girls only play Candy Crush", but it's also a statistically proven fact that more women (Typically in the higher age ranges) play the more "Casual" market.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/10/31 01:57:33
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
