Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Which are the most useful Biomorhps for all Tyranids (including gribblies, warrior sized models and MC's)?

With the poison nerf I'm struggling to find the right biomorphs to equip onto my Hormagaunts and Shrikes and co, help would be appreciated!

If I was going to give any biomorphs to any units here this is what I give them.
1. termagants: Toxin sacs (helps to bring down MCs and the like)
2. Horagaunts: Adrenal glands (cheap, allows them to glance to death tanks, helps them move faster)
3. Gargoyles: Adrenal glands and Toxin sacs (same as above)
4. Genestealers: toxin sacs
5. Ripper swarm: Deep strike special rule
6: Hive Tyrant: Regeneration
7. Tervigon: Regeneration
8. Prime: toxin sacs and adrenal glands
9. Carnifex: Adrenal glands (str.10 great for tanks, fleet)
10. Trygon, M awloc, Exocrine, Tyrannofex: Regeneration

Biomorphs? Almost none of them are worth taking,


Deep strike on the Rippers is the only reason to have them in your army at all, so this one is important.

Wings for Hive tyrant is obvious.

Regen for Tyrannofex is an important mention as these things can crush low point games, although I wouldn't do it in 1500 or higher. No matter what, DO NOT take this upgrade at any other time, on any other model. It's so much to pay, for what is often unlikely to be even a single extra wound, and even if it is you are often better off having put those points towards an another MC. Mawlocs for example only pay 23 pts per wound and don't need to survive a turn of shooting, roll highly, and then while wounded have that extra wound be the difference between it dying or not in he following turn. This is what you are paying for with Regen. Stay away.

Electroshock grubs Thorax biomorph is commonly taken wherever possible (Tyrants Tervigons & Tyrannos) as a good way of adding extra reliable DPS against both armour and GEQ for the walking MCs and giving the Flyrant a way to strip HP off multiple vehicles at once (you can use his mobility to abuse template positioning). On Flyrants At 10 points it's often worth the utility, just as often however it's the first thing I drop to upgrade say a Mawloc to a Dakkafex.

Adrenal Glands is decent on the Mawloc, helps secure a charge against the best target possible, and allows him to pump 4x S7 AP2 (aka Plasma) attacks out on the charge, useful for rear armour, useful for Wraithknights (he is an excellent tarpit unit regardless).

Aside from this, I wouldn't say much is useful, some of the more mediocre choices have some optional biomorphs like rending claws on Cc warriors/Shrikes and toxin sacs for Hormagants or Gargs, however these units often perform just as good or better with the points spent on upgrades just spent on extra models, stuff like toxin sac Gants setting you behind on points before anything even touches the field unless they have a Wraithknight or something similar, and even then the assault being quite easy to deny and the unit being an overpriced T3 6+ blob being quite easy to deal with. Similar story with adrenal glands, allows them to glance AV10 on a 6, but that's debatably an inefficient way of doing that regardless, and the AG just makes them do less damage against every other target in the game unfortunately.

Toxin Sacs on Termagaunts is silly since termagaunts dont want to get in close combat, thats making them more expensive for almost no chance of being usefull

Adrenal glands on hormagaunts is good but dosnt help them go faster as they are already fleet.

Regeneration is not worthwhile except in low point game on a Tyranofex as Shuppet mentionned.

upgrades on tyranids need to be taken as sparingly as possible since they are generally overpointed

For biomorphs, when in doubt, go without. They are useful for specific units trying to fill a specific role.

Regen is an easy one to go crazy with.. it is so enticing. BUt normally it just entices your opponent to focus down your models so they die in one turn.
I don't like it on Tfexes becuase they are already 6W 6T 2+ save... they don't really need the help.
The only time I consider Regen, is on a flyrant, particularly the warlord. (and to be honest, usually skip it then too) But... It is usually hard to focus down a FMC in one turn, it is often a matter of putting on a wound each turn... giving you more chances to get the wounds back. In addition, once down to 1-2 wounds, you have to really start worrying about Perils... so it is nice to get a wound back once in a while.

But again, this is more a matter of deciding what to do with 'left over' points once the list is written.


If I run CC Shrikes, I will usually give them some upgrades. If worried about heavy tanks, I may give the devilfexes AG. If I want the gargs to be able to take out what they are tarpitting I may splurge on them.

I really can't think of any other biomorphs I would use...

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Toxin Sacs on Termagaunts is silly since termagaunts dont want to get in close combat, thats making them more expensive for almost no chance of being usefull

Adrenal glands on hormagaunts is good but dosnt help them go faster as they are already fleet.

Regeneration is not worthwhile except in low point game on a Tyranofex as Shuppet mentionned.

upgrades on tyranids need to be taken as sparingly as possible since they are generally overpointed

Everything he said is pretty accurate except for the part about Termagants not wanting to CC, they aren't going to be doing a whole lot of damage regardless and they are the most points efficient tarpit in the dex, if they make it to CC range of something with enough wounds to last a turn of combat, you probably want to take the opportunity to deny a unit's shooting phase. For this reason, toxin sacs can be situationally worthwhile, but 9 times out of 10 they will be wasted points, so because of the price it's a bad upgrade.

coredump wrote:


Regen is an easy one to go crazy with.. it is so enticing. BUt normally it just entices your opponent to focus down your models so they die in one turn.
I don't like it on Tfexes becuase they are already 6W 6T 2+ save... they don't really need the help.
The only time I consider Regen, is on a flyrant, particularly the warlord. (and to be honest, usually skip it then too) But... It is usually hard to focus down a FMC in one turn, it is often a matter of putting on a wound each turn... giving you more chances to get the wounds back. In addition, once down to 1-2 wounds, you have to really start worrying about Perils... so it is nice to get a wound back once in a while.

This is bad logic, any sensible opponent will not half commit to killing anything with Regen. Tyrannofexe's are the tankiest unit we have and as such are the most likely to survive a full round of shooting, but at higher points levels even that is unlikely. Flyrants are probably the second best pick for Regen however still a bad upgrade, but as coredump mentioned it can be hard to focus them down IN LATER TURNS if you are cautious with them in the early game, that being said they pay a lot for their early aggression and are often the first things sniped regardless. It's highly unlikely you will have a Flyrant take wounds, survive, roll a successful Regen, and then that one extra wound being enough to survive the subsequent turn of shooting. Relying on this for relevant wounds instead of just spending the points towards more actual wounds is a bad idea, especially considering the hefty price on Regen.

I used to run Toxin Sacks on Genestealers, but have given up on that after the Poison nerf. The Broodlord does still get use out of Poison though, and it an upgrade I do try to take on it alone.

Hormagaunts I enjoy with Toxin Sacks. They already have Fleet, and then you more or less choose between Adrenals for S4 on the charge (glancing vehicles to death) vs Poison to bring down anything T5 or greater (or more reliability on T2 of combat onwards).

Termagants I never upgrade, short of Devourers on occasion.

Warriors equipped for ranged combat I never upgrade beyond a Barbed Strangler or Venom Cannon. Melee Warriors I often run with Adrenals/Rending Claws (Flesh Hooks are tempting, but these things often run behind Hormagaunts and so don't need them).

Carnifexes get Adrenals under most circumstances.

Trygons used to love Toxin Sacks, but following their various nerfs I don't bother with them at all sadly.

Nothing else really sports biomorphs at all, beyond weapons these days.

Well...Thorax Hives, I see these as so "auto-take" I barely think of them as an upgrade. If I know I'm going to face Wraithknight spam, Toxic Hormagaunts are my "go to" counter. I do like Flesh Hooks, but mostly see them as useful for Shrikes. I am so "old school" that I almost always "tarpit, then join". I do like Deathspitters though. The +1 S and AP just seems worth the points to me...

In low point games, I give serious thought to Regen for Tyranofex For the psychology as much as any table advantage. I consider Devourers to be a upgrade, and I do use them fairly often (though less and less these days)

I'm not sure I can ever get behind regen on a TFex. A TFex is expendable. I fear having him tarpit rather than fearing that he is killed. 6 more gants are always going to be a better use of points.

Regen on a Flyrant in certain games is a maybe. A flyrant has so much survivability, and unlike the TFex is not expendable. Also the Flyrant is more likely to take one wound early on from perils, and that is what regen can help you with. Still it isn't a great idea.

Poison hormagants are good. A wraithnight fears nothing more than poison hormagants.

Adrenal Glands on a flyrant can sometimes help with 1st blood, but usually isn't worth it.

With the changes to vehicles, and the nerfs to smash, and tmc's in general, if you want to use MC's like Mawlocs, Trygons, Trygon Prime, Walkrants, or Tervigon, then Adrenal glands is often going to be a good choice. It gives them a chance to kill a rhino in assault. It will still often take 2 turns which is insane, and the reason those MC's don't work very well in the current edition. You are probably better off avoiding those units, but if you want to use them, include A.G. to give them a chance to help you out.

You clearly don't play many lower level games. T-Fex is far from expendable, and has the versatility to do large amount of damage to any sort of unit. At higher point levels I agree, it's a bad idea, and he already has enough survivability. At low point levels it can push those into over the top. I brought 2 Regen T-Fex to a 1000 pt tournament recently (like a dick), not only did I come first undefeated, neither of the Tyranno's died all day! and most games they matched my Dakka Flyrant for damage. At lower levels, I'd actually say that it is the closest thing we have to cheese.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You clearly don't play many lower level games. T-Fex is far from expendable, and has the versatility to do large amount of damage to any sort of unit. At higher point levels I agree, it's a bad idea, and he already has enough survivability. At low point levels it can push those into over the top. I brought 2 Regen T-Fex to a 1000 pt tournament recently (like a dick), not only did I come first undefeated, neither of the Tyranno's died all day! and most games they matched my Dakka Flyrant for damage. At lower levels, I'd actually say that it is the closest thing we have to cheese.

I think your meta doesn't look much like mine. A Tfex doesn't benefit from lower point games as much as a Dakkafex, and a Dakkafex can do so much more offensive output. TFex is better in bigger games when you can sacrifice firepower for survivability.

Also a Tfex works much better in metas where people don't always keep their troops inside metal boxes.

Here are a few example 1000 point lists I've seen recently (last 2 weeks):

Blood Angels:

Eldar:

Space Wolves:

I.G.

I.G.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You clearly don't play many lower level games. T-Fex is far from expendable, and has the versatility to do large amount of damage to any sort of unit. At higher point levels I agree, it's a bad idea, and he already has enough survivability. At low point levels it can push those into over the top. I brought 2 Regen T-Fex to a 1000 pt tournament recently (like a dick), not only did I come first undefeated, neither of the Tyranno's died all day! and most games they matched my Dakka Flyrant for damage. At lower levels, I'd actually say that it is the closest thing we have to cheese.

And in a 1K game, the standard Tfex is going to survive just fine without regen. T6 2+ save is a pretty big pain at 1K. And spending 60pts on regen in a 1K game is a much bigger investment than spending 30pts in a 1850 game.

The logic behind the flyrant is multiple
Against the vast majority of shooting, the flyrant is more resilient than the Tfex. Of all the BS4 (not AP2) shots taken, 11.1% will hit and get past the Tfex armor save, only 5.5% will hit and get past the flyrant save. For AP3 that goes up to 8.3%, but still better.
If you take AP2/1 into account, the flyrant gets *MUCH* more resilient. (A ridiculous amount if the Tfex is not in cover, 8.3% for flyrant, and a whopping 66% for the Tfex - 'only' 33% if in ruins)

The flyrant has superior mobility to try and get out of Line of site from certain threats

The flyrant can leave the board if it really gets into trouble

The flyrant is often the warlord, and thus its death gives up a VP

The flyrant can self-wound. I first thought about regen in a game where my opponent managed to get 3 wounds on the flyrant; I became afraid to cast because of Perils. Likewise, even if your opponent prioritizes other models, you might wound yourself early and have multiple chances to regen it.



To repeat however, regen is still too expensive and can effect the outcome of the game. But there are enough benefits to having it on a flyrant, particularly your warlord, that I find it is worth considering once your list is near done.

What? So Tyrannofexes are are unkillable label at 1k points? I have no idea the logic here.

Your stats just say Tyrannofex is tankier to Flyrant to every thing except AP2, however, you failed to math in grounding checks, which between 2 Flyrants is happening twice every three turns and is so easy to abuse.

But this is all beside the point, as I will concede it as a somewhat useful upgrade for them.

The self-wound is in no way a bonus to your argument by the way, it just makes the Flyrant less tanky again. You look at this game the wrong way if you think this makes Regen a better upgrade for him..

 SHUPPET wrote:
What? So Tyrannofexes are are unkillable label at 1k points? I have no idea the logic here.

Your stats just say Tyrannofex is tankier to Flyrant to every thing except AP2, however, you failed to math in grounding checks, which between 2 Flyrants is happening twice every three turns and is so easy to abuse.

But this is all beside the point, as I will concede it as a somewhat useful upgrade for them.

The self-wound is in no way a bonus to your argument by the way, it just makes the Flyrant less tanky again. You look at this game the wrong way if you think this makes Regen a better upgrade for him..

TFex isn't unkillable. Just really hard to kill. But if someone has the tools to, and wants to kill it, they will in 1-2 turns. So you are regenning 1 wound at best per game.

Meanwhile, a Flyrant takes wounds roughly like this:
Turn 1 <- wounds from attempt to kill it in alpha strike probably doesn't survive if it does, chances it regens 2 throughout the game.
Turn 2-3 <- most likely wounds are from perils. If it takes a wound here, it will regen it.
Turn 4-5 <- Opponent is desperate or running out of softer targets takes a wound from an attempt to ground it. It has the same chance as a tfex to regen this wound.

Now lets compare the cost per wound of these two options:
Flyrant: 60 Points
TFex: 29.1 points

So if you do regen a wound on a flyrant you are essentially getting twice the value for your regeneration biomorph.

That doesn't mean I think regen is a good buy on a flyrant. I think regen is stupidly overcosted for what it does. If it granted It Will Not Die, then giving it to a TFex would be perfectly reasonable. But for a 50% chance of regaining 1 wound, it is never going to be worth it at 30 points.

I think Regen's main effect is a psychilogical one. The player who takes it feels a cathartic effect every time it comes into play. I know that is the way I feel every time I've regenned something. It also grants a cathartic feeling to players that kill something with Regen. I take a list with a regenerating Tervigon and Trygon Prime when I play inexperienced players. Months later, one of them still boasts about having killed a regenerating Trygon Prime.

 SHUPPET wrote:
What? So Tyrannofexes are are unkillable label at 1k points? I have no idea the logic here.

This shouldn't be that complex... at 1K it is a fairly hard task to take out a 6T 6W 2+ model, at 1K the Tfex doesn't need regen.

Your stats just say Tyrannofex is tankier to Flyrant to every thing except AP2, however, you failed to math in grounding checks, which between 2 Flyrants is happening twice every three turns and is so easy to abuse.

Then you need to read a bit more carefully, because that is *not* what I said.

I will spell it out in even more detail for you:
I have ignored T since they are the same.
If you take 100 shots at a Flyrant with an AP4/5/6/- weapon, then only 5.5 of them will hit and get passed the armor save.
Same shots at a Tfex: 11.1 shots get passed the armor save.

If using AP3, then 8.3 shots get through to the Flyrant
And still 11.1 get through to the Tfex

If using AP2, then still 8.3 shots gets through to the flyrant
But now a whopping 66 shots get through to the Tfex (33 if in ruins)

To be complete, this does not address Skyfire; That will help balance things, but most armies have little or no skyfire.

So the point is, it is harder to take out the flyrant than the Tfex. (needing 6's to hit is a huge boon to resiliency)


As for the grounding checks, they actually kind of self correct. The 'worst' case is if a flyrant takes one wound per turn; on average, you will fail one of those grounding checks and take 4 wounds. But 2 mitigating factors:
1) All that does is make the flyrant about on par with the Tfex. (Exact same for AP4/5/6/-, HT a little weaker on AP3, Tfex still way horrible on AP2/1)
2) By doing only 1 wound per turn, it means the flyrant has lots of chances to regen back a wound before dieing. If they do 3 wounds on the same turn, it is unlikely the HT will ground on one check. (but it is possible) Of course, if they are able to put 3 wounds on a FMC in one turn, you have other issues.

The self-wound is in no way a bonus to your argument by the way, it just makes the Flyrant less tanky again. You look at this game the wrong way if you think this makes Regen a better upgrade for him..

I don't understand why you can't see the issue here.
Lets say an Alpha Strike puts 3 wounds on the flyrant before it can get in the air. That means you can't use any psy powers without risking death. With Regen, it gives you that ability.
Or the other end, Regen does nothing unless you are wounded, a flyrant can get wounded just by perils, regen helps you recover those wounds.

The best target for Regen is *not* a big hard to kill tank. The best target is a model that is likely to take many rounds to kill, taking 1-2 wounds every other round, or so.... The flyrant fits that profile in almost every game; against most armies, the Tfex is either going to be too tough to kill, or will go down in 1-2 turns.

coredump wrote:
The best target for Regen is *not* a big hard to kill tank. The best target is a model that is likely to take many rounds to kill, taking 1-2 wounds every other round, or so.... The flyrant fits that profile in almost every game; against most armies, the Tfex is either going to be too tough to kill, or will go down in 1-2 turns.

Well said, you've almost got me interested in trying regen on flyrants in a few games. It is hard to justify spending another 30 points on a unit that is toughness 6 and only 4 wounds. Do you think it is worth it?

Generally....you don't want any biomorphs. For the most part they're pretty useless and overcosted on the models they're on.

Toxin Sacs - Only on CC Shrikes or a very, very large blob of hormagaunts (and even then only if you know you're going to be facing some big MCs that need tarpitting...). Wasted on almost everything else since most things are either strength stupid or never likely to see combat in their life.

Why Shrikes? Because Shrikes are surprisingly useful for us. They're mobile Synapse, can actually hit the softer and weaker parts of the enemy line and to be perfectly fair the fixed 4+ wounding really helps when combined with Boneswords. Even if you don't ID a big target you throw them at you'll still get far more wounds....

Adrenal Glands - Situational at best - Flyrants and Carnifexes and even then only if you have nothing else better to spend the points on - which you likely will.

Regeneration - So horrendously overpointed for what it does and as mentioned things with Regen will just die instantly if your opponent chooses to burst it down. Flyrants seem the safest option to stick this on for their durability but to be honest the points cost is obscene. You regenned 2 Flyrants - for the same points you could have stuck Adrenals on 4 things or better yet bought another unit altogether.

Ultimately I'd shy away from Regen unless you really want to build a list around it - I think if you are going serious Nidzilla then Regen may have far more value overall but it's not worth it if put on one or two models as focused fire will simply down them.

coredump wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
What? So Tyrannofexes are are unkillable label at 1k points? I have no idea the logic here.

This shouldn't be that complex... at 1K it is a fairly hard task to take out a 6T 6W 2+ model, at 1K the Tfex doesn't need regen.

This is... beyond ridiculous. By this logic we should just nothing but TFexes and auto win at 1k. They do die at 1000k. The fact that they are harder to kill is why Regen is good on them.

Your stats just say Tyrannofex is tankier to Flyrant to every thing except AP2, however, you failed to math in grounding checks, which between 2 Flyrants is happening twice every three turns and is so easy to abuse.

Then you need to read a bit more carefully, because that is *not* what I said.

I will spell it out in even more detail for you:
I have ignored T since they are the same.
If you take 100 shots at a Flyrant with an AP4/5/6/- weapon, then only 5.5 of them will hit and get passed the armor save.
Same shots at a Tfex: 11.1 shots get passed the armor save.

If using AP3, then 8.3 shots get through to the Flyrant
And still 11.1 get through to the Tfex

If using AP2, then still 8.3 shots gets through to the flyrant
But now a whopping 66 shots get through to the Tfex (33 if in ruins)

So is Regeneration worth it on the Flyrants in bigger games? I've got my Fast Attack slots filled up, but two Broods of ten Gargoyles, would Regen on both Flyrants, or another five Gargoyles in each slot be more competitive?

And would Adrenal Glands on twenty Hormagaunts be worth it over a unit of ten Termagants or not? Or just increase the amount of Hormagaunts?

Other than these questions, I think I get the jist that Biomorphs are not the greatest things to load up on and only take them if you have points to spare, which should be never

 SHUPPET wrote:

coredump wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
What? So Tyrannofexes are are unkillable label at 1k points? I have no idea the logic here.

This shouldn't be that complex... at 1K it is a fairly hard task to take out a 6T 6W 2+ model, at 1K the Tfex doesn't need regen.

This is... beyond ridiculous. By this logic we should just nothing but TFexes and auto win at 1k. They do die at 1000k. The fact that they are harder to kill is why Regen is good on them.

Look, you can't have it both ways.

*You* took 2 regen Tfexes to a 1000pt tourney:
Went undefeated
No Tfex dies *all day*
Tfex did as much damage as flyrant.

Yet when I advise taking 2 plain TFexes you are like "Of course they will die" Sorry buddy, but Regen just *isn't* that good. If your opponents were incapable of ever killing any Tfex in any game... it wasn't because of Regen. If they were having that much trouble, it was because they were having trouble dealing with a T6 6W 2+ sv model in the first place.

Y
So for everything not AP2 or even AP3 The Tyrannofex take 50% as many wounds, but has 66%'s as many hitpoints, and cost 25% points less. This makes the Tyrannofex tankier.

No. The Tfex takes *100%* more wounds, and has 50% more hit points, and costs 25% fewer points.
The flyrant takes 50% fewer wounds, has 33% fewer hitpoints, and costs 33% more points.

The point cost actually *supports* adding Regen to the flyrant, since those points are also paying for more damage output, better mobility, psy powers, synapse, etc. It means keeping it alive is *more* valuable in both points saved and value added to your army.
If a Tfex dies, you lose 175pts of a model, and 175pts of 'value' to your army. If a FLyrant dies, you lose 230pts of a model and 280pts of value to your army. (280 is my estimate, you are welcome to use your own value)

AP3 makes it ridicuously favoured to the T-Fex. So basically, those stats, say an equal amount of points of Tyrannofex will tank more shots than an equal amount of points in Flyrant.

No. I don't know how you are making your comparisons, but I assume you are making the same mistakes as you did above.
Against nothing but AP3 guns, the flyrant and Tfex will take the same number of shots to kill... but the flyrant is more valuable to my army, much more. (especially as warlord)
[This does not factor in grounding tests yet, but as before, those tend to not be as important as they would seem]

Even if we choose to toss the points cost aside here, compared the 240 point Flyrant to the 185 Tyrannofex, evening that out for a second the Flyrant doesn't take that much more shooting to kill than a TFex. According to your stats the Flyrant would be dead after the 72nd shot, the Tyrannofex after the 55th AP- shot - except the Flyrant is forced to take a Grounding Check, giving it a 1/3 chance of crashing and make it die after the 54th shots anyway.

Before I address your math, lets say you are right and it takes the same number of shots. Is it better to spend 30pts to save your 240pt flyrant, or your 175pt Tfex??

Plus you are assuming you will fail the grounding test, and that you will fail it before you make a regen roll. You fail grounding test 33% of the time, you make the regen roll 50% of the time. And they have to wound you again to force another grounding test, but you always make regen rolls.

But the biggest mistake you are making, is treating this like its World of Warcraft and you are building a Tank model. Your entire approach is that both models are standing across the board getting shot.

The Tfex *does* have to do that, but the Flyrant does not.

That AM Blob getting too close? ( FRFSRF and prescience is a bitch), then the flyrant swoops away 24", while the Tfex gets shot.
Down to one/two wounds? Tfex stands there, Flyrant can swoop off the board. Or get behind some LoS blocking terrain

Both models are wounded, the Wraithknight assaults the Tfex and finishes it off in assault.... can't touch the Flyrant

Hmmm... those orks/AM/Kroot/whatever tarpit the Tfex... can't touch the flyrant.

Yes, Regen might help you recover a wound lost from perils - however, this doesn't make The Flyrant any better or the Tyrannofex any worse at Regen, that one wound lost just makes you 3/4 as likely to survive a round of shooting. The regen gives you a chance to mitigate this, however, at no point are you ever in a better place than you would be from taking the same upgrade to a comparably tanky model who doesn't have to deal with Perils.

Only because you continue to view this as a WoW like tank comparison, where the only thing you consider is how long can Model X stand in one spot and get shot. The point is there is more to the game than that, and the flyrant provides more opportunities to benefit from Regen.

Ex.1 Your opponent is going to deal with your Devilfexes and tervigons first, and will then worry about the flyrants. Your WL perils on turn 1, you now have 2-4 turns to get that wound back before becoming the target.
Granted, the 'tank' model would have never lost that wound, but that is my point, there are more opportunities to help the flyrant.

Ex.2 Over the course of 3-4 turns, you are down to a single wound, the flyrant is not unable to cast spells. If you regen a wound, the flyrant now regains the ability to cast spells. True, the Tfex doesn't care about casting spells, but that is my point. This is another way Regen can benefit the flyrant.

Ex.3 Each model gets hammered on turns 1-2, the Tfex may be able to hide in some cover, but can't get away. The Flyrant can swoop off the board, then swoop behind some LoS blocking terrain... getting 2 chances to get a wound back before taking more shots...


The Tfex and flyrant are nearly the same resiliency, *if* you make them both act like a tank and just stand there. That is really the only option for the Tfex, the Flyrant has many more options, and more ways to benefit from Regen. If you plan on relegating the flyrant into the 'stand still and tank' role, then it does become more of a toss-up.

Frozocrone wrote:
So is Regeneration worth it on the Flyrants in bigger games? I've got my Fast Attack slots filled up, but two Broods of ten Gargoyles, would Regen on both Flyrants, or another five Gargoyles in each slot be more competitive?

And would Adrenal Glands on twenty Hormagaunts be worth it over a unit of ten Termagants or not? Or just increase the amount of Hormagaunts?

Other than these questions, I think I get the jist that Biomorphs are not the greatest things to load up on and only take them if you have points to spare, which should be never

The smaller the game, the more useful Regen is. 5 more Gargs is generally a better option. If regen cost 15 - 20 points it would probably be worth it on Flyrants.

A.G. on HGants is OK, but generally not recommended. If you are relying on HGaunts for tankbusting or offensive power, your list probably needs work, because thinks like Dakka flyrants, Crones and Dakkafexes should do the tank busting and offense. Hgants are generally a tarpit and mobile screen, so quantity is more important than quality.

The only exception to loading up on biomorphs is if you are running a formation with respawning units such as Endless Swarm. In Endless swarm it is perfectly reasonable to run 1 squad of poison HGaunts and 2 of A.G. HGants (or 2 and 1). This is less true of Skyblight until you get your broods of gargoyles over 20.

Frozocrone wrote:
So is Regeneration worth it on the Flyrants in bigger games? I've got my Fast Attack slots filled up, but two Broods of ten Gargoyles, would Regen on both Flyrants, or another five Gargoyles in each slot be more competitive?

eh.... hard to say. Its like this, as a rule Regen is just not worth it on anything. Putting it on a flyrant, particularly the warlord, moves it into the 'maybe okay' category. It isn't something I start with, its something I consider when I am down to my last 50-100pts on a list. I don't know if I would put it on both flyrants, or just the WL. But between regen and 5 gargs... it could go either way; partly depending on how you use the gargs.

And would Adrenal Glands on twenty Hormagaunts be worth it over a unit of ten Termagants or not? Or just increase the amount of Hormagaunts?

Again, depends. Depends on the rest of your list, and how you intend to use the HGs. The *only* reason I would use AG on HGaunts, is to let them damage transports.

Other than these questions, I think I get the jist that Biomorphs are not the greatest things to load up on and only take them if you have points to spare, which should be never

Its more like picking them for a specific job. Like taking AG so the gargs or HGaunts can damage transports, *if* you plan on using them that way.
Mostly never take upgrades just to make the unit 'generally better'.

Frozocrone wrote:
So is Regeneration worth it on the Flyrants in bigger games? I've got my Fast Attack slots filled up, but two Broods of ten Gargoyles, would Regen on both Flyrants, or another five Gargoyles in each slot be more competitive?

And would Adrenal Glands on twenty Hormagaunts be worth it over a unit of ten Termagants or not? Or just increase the amount of Hormagaunts?

Other than these questions, I think I get the jist that Biomorphs are not the greatest things to load up on and only take them if you have points to spare, which should be never

Word, about the only time I feel a strong urge to splurge on Biomods is if I am facing a Lot of enemy MCs, then Toxic Hormagaunts become temping...

coredump wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

coredump wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
What? So Tyrannofexes are are unkillable label at 1k points? I have no idea the logic here.

This shouldn't be that complex... at 1K it is a fairly hard task to take out a 6T 6W 2+ model, at 1K the Tfex doesn't need regen.

This is... beyond ridiculous. By this logic we should just nothing but TFexes and auto win at 1k. They do die at 1000k. The fact that they are harder to kill is why Regen is good on them.

Look, you can't have it both ways.

*You* took 2 regen Tfexes to a 1000pt tourney:
Went undefeated
No Tfex dies *all day*
Tfex did as much damage as flyrant.

Yet when I advise taking 2 plain TFexes you are like "Of course they will die" Sorry buddy, but Regen just *isn't* that good. If your opponents were incapable of ever killing any Tfex in any game... it wasn't because of Regen. If they were having that much trouble, it was because they were having trouble dealing with a T6 6W 2+ sv model in the first place.

Well, this applys to you as well. You can't say that Regen is valid on a Flyrant because he is tankier than a Tyrannofex, but not valid on a Tyrannofex because he "has enough tank as is". Why is it ok on the Flyrant? Because each successful Regen roll gives him back 7% extra health than it does for the TFex? That's not enough to rule out the TFex, the Flyrant costs 60 points anyway.

My report was anecdotal and not something I'd expect to happen every day, but to me it proved their worth. As mentioned, it might be a meta thing, Flyers and FMC's weren't allowed at this 1000 point Tourney (I can't say I agreed with that ruling, especially since there was both Riptides and Wraithknights floating around, but meh I played to the rules and got a great result out of the TFexes), and Regen most definitely did contribute to their survival, being the difference between life and death multiple times.

I'm not saying regen Flyrant is bad - in fact you've convinced me that I will be running 2 next time I play a 1000 point game (don't have to restrict myself outside of tourneys). All I'm saying is that Regen TFex is just as good.

doublepost

triple post

Can I just take a moment to congratulate the GW design team.

5th edition - Regeneration is virtually never seen on anything bar the tyranid prime, because 20-30pts is too expensive for such a marginal effect.

6th edition - Don't worry, we'll solve this by making everything pay a flat 30pts for regeneration. Wait, what problem were we fixing again...?

 vipoid wrote:
Can I just take a moment to congratulate the GW design team.

5th edition - Regeneration is virtually never seen on anything bar the tyranid prime, because 20-30pts is too expensive for such a marginal effect.

6th edition - Don't worry, we'll solve this by making everything pay a flat 30pts for regeneration. Wait, what problem were we fixing again...?

'Let's make the Trygon utterly useless in comparison to other Heavy Support, nerf Monstrous Creatures so that he's beyond playable and then for ten points more, allow Tyranid players to use the Diamchaeron instead!'

There are all sorts of design flaws GW makes

 SHUPPET wrote:

Well, this applys to you as well. You can't say that Regen is valid on a Flyrant because he is tankier than a Tyrannofex, but not valid on a Tyrannofex because he "has enough tank as is". Why is it ok on the Flyrant? Because each successful Regen roll gives him back 7% extra health than it does for the TFex? That's not enough to rule out the TFex, the Flyrant costs 60 points anyway.
.

I agree, which is why I answered this question several times now. Yes, there are about the same level of 'tank'.... if they both just sit there and get shot turn after turn then the Tfex may even benefit more from Regen. But only the Tfex *has* to do that, the flyrant does *not* have to allow that.

Why is it okay on the flyrant instead of the Tfex?

1) Flyrant is better able to move out of range of dangerous units. (AM blob)
2) Flyrant is able to fly off the board if badly wounded. (to protect and give time to heal)
3) Flyrant is better able to get behind LoS blocking terrain (to be protected and give time to heal)
4) Flyrant can't be wounded and then finished off in assault (ex. Wraithknight)
5) Flyrant can't be tarpitted (making regen useless)
6) Flyrant can be wounded by perils, thus giving more ways for Regen to be useful
7) Flyrant loses some abilities when left with only 1 wound, thus giving more oppotunities for regen to affect the game play.
8) Flyrant deals more damage, thus is more important to keep alive
9) Flyrant provides synapse, and Psy powers; thus more important to keep alive
10) Flyrant is often the Warlord, thus is more important to keep alive.


And even with all of those advantages, Its still only a 'maybe, if I have some points left over' kind of upgrade.

Hmmm I agree with the first 4, however after that it seems to trail off into extra dot points to fill in the 10. Not sure I even understand #5. Number 6-7 aren't a positive reason to invest more points into Regen into a Flyrant, no matter how you spin it. #8 is debatable and flat out incorrect in certain match ups (although not most). #9 is kind of irrelevant as with the points saved from taking a Tyrannofex you can more than afford a Zoanthrope and block LoS with the TFex, except you have the freedom to do as you please with those points. You should have made the final one #5 instead and called it a day. It's hardly relevant anyway.

I do agree that the first 4 are relevant. ESPECIALLY since it still rolls for Regen while off the board. That being said there is a lot of very speculative logic being used to push your point across, I could say well, because the TFex is similar in tank to the Flyrant but the Flyrant achieves it in less wounds, that means a TFex is likely to receive a wound faster than the Flyrant, due to it having the same amount of tank spread across more wounds. This logic is correct, and is one of the ways TFex might have an opportunity to make use of a regen before Flyrant, WITHOUT sacrificing any tank to do it aka perils. However, these sort of nonsense speculators arguments from us are relevant in so little way and only push your point the tiniest millimetre forward even if it is correct. Which mine is. I'm not going to keep trying to drill it forward as a point however as these sort of things are barely worth acknowledging.

The first 4 are all very relevant points on things that the Flyrant does better, but for 55 points more in a 1000 pt game, this is what I'd expect from it. Tyrannofex is a cheaper, just as viable platform for regen as Flyrant. (Especially for those of us who are not allowed to bring FMCS at 1000 pts :@ )