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I'm having some doubts about my usual auto-include fire dragons when rolling with three WK @ 1850 points.

So this is a new idea:


3 Min DA Squad 195
3 Wraith Knight 720
2 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter 260
1 Wave Serpent Scatter 120
3 5 Warp Spiders 285
1 Farseer Bike MotlG 155
1 Naked BikeSeer 115


1850 points

But I thought Wraightknights were Overcosted and not worth it compared to Land Raiders? And Wave Serpents got Nerfed hard and now suck?

Well, with 3 WK's you hardly need FD's.
Where are the holofields?

Holofields cost so many points....

morgoth wrote:
Holofields cost so many points....

but are a live saver for your Serpents. You just have 3 of them.

Not quite false...
1 Min Fragon Squad 110
2 Min DA Squad 130
1 Wave Serpent Scatter + Holo 135
2 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter + Holo 290
3 Wraith Knight 720
2 5 Warp Spiders 190
1 Farseer Bike MotlG 155
1 Naked BikeSeer 115

See, I'm just not quite sure those holofields are worth five Warp Spiders (and the trade of Fragons for DAs to use the remaining points).

Maybe if I could find a better use for the points, it could make more sense, on the other hand, I know not having the WS would be really bad if there is any kind of air spam on the other side.

Well, I play Serpent spam in a slightly different way.
The Serpents move at constant speed of 12'' and shoot away
and finally they stay at 24'' (or shorter range) to shoot all weapons:
tl scatter laser, underslung shuricannon, shield.

You play a quite different army.

you can get 5 wave serpents and 3 wk for 1850 easily.. I think your list lacks way too much "dps" you are fragile if you are eldar you to be able to run the opponents list.. and you can't.... make the spiders 2 squads of 10, get rid of 2nd farseer. ...

ConanMan wrote:
you can get 5 wave serpents and 3 wk for 1850 easily.. I think your list lacks way too much "dps" you are fragile if you are eldar you to be able to run the opponents list.. and you can't.... make the spiders 2 squads of 10, get rid of 2nd farseer. ...

Right.
However, 3 WK's are overkill.
You need to play aggressively.

 wuestenfux wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
you can get 5 wave serpents and 3 wk for 1850 easily.. I think your list lacks way too much "dps" you are fragile if you are eldar you to be able to run the opponents list.. and you can't.... make the spiders 2 squads of 10, get rid of 2nd farseer. ...

Right.
However, 3 WK's are overkill.
You need to play aggressively.

Agreed.
3 wk are not just overkill they are a downright liability.. I've seen 3 die in 3 turns to termagaunts.. beside, they give out far too little dakka.. I personally run my eldar one side of the "middle" of the available LINE OF SIGHT BLOCKING table cover.. I basically expose my army only enough to see/[be in range of] less than half my opponents units.. you need enough dakka to run that half of the opponent's list into rubble.. kill all the things that can hurt you the most in reverse order.. spend a second turn mopping up then go the "other" side of the middle cover (there is always something)

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I play Serpent spam in a slightly different way.
The Serpents move at constant speed of 12'' and shoot away
and finally they stay at 24'' (or shorter range) to shoot all weapons:
tl scatter laser, underslung shuricannon, shield.

You play a quite different army.

I'd rather not play it your way.
If you stay in the right range to shoot all weapons, you will get charged, because it's 23", or 1 in six chances to be charged T1, 100% chance of being charged T2.
You can at most avoid being charged until T3 IF you fight at SL range.

If you move 12", your Shuriken Cannon is Snap Fire TL. Not totally crappy, but is it really worth risking a potentially fatal charge ? ...

the most success i've had is with wave serpents and vypers (all SC+SL) I have never (yet) had an opponent attack the vypers - they always seem to go for the wave serpents first.. but the dakka that 3 wave serpents with 3 vypers in amongst them can dish out is horrendous.. with or without snap firing / 12 " / 6 " .. also I put the front wave serpent out there to jink.. I often don't shoot it's shield ( I shoot it last and make a decision based on expected next turn) this "front" wave serpent will jink.. the others will not have to they get "cover" saves by being off it's shoulder.. it sounds lame but like a line strung out across the table all of them get cover except the one at the front.. if people melee you it's cos you're not shooting them properly.. in all my games I can only think of one game where I was in melee when I didn't want to be.. and that was cos I had tabled him except for his termies and felt sorry for him

ConanMan wrote:
you can get 5 wave serpents and 3 wk for 1850 easily.. I think your list lacks way too much "dps" you are fragile if you are eldar you to be able to run the opponents list.. and you can't.... make the spiders 2 squads of 10, get rid of 2nd farseer. ...

I know, I invented those lists. Plus you do not 'easily' get 5 WS and 3WK in 1850 points, it's 1840 if you stuff them with DA only, with the full Shu/Scatter/Holo kit.
The list I'm moving from has 4 WS with holos and the mantleseer, and it's clearly better than

Now I'm trying to improve on that, not make it worse.

The second farseer is a *very* questionable choice, and depending on playtest, it's very likely that I will drop it.

The hard part is coming up with a good way to spend the points left after the initial basic investment, i.e.:


2 Min DA Squad 130
3 Wraith Knight 720
2 Wave Serpent Scatter 240
1 Farseer Bike MotlG 155

That base core seems competitive to me, the problem is using the 605 remaining points with good efficiency.

The fire dragons are not cutting it, the Wave Serpent upgrades are somewhat questionable when your enemy has to deal with 3 WK, and apart from Warp Spiders, I don't know what could make a good difference (except a star, but that's another list project entirely).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ConanMan wrote:
the most success i've had is with wave serpents and vypers (all SC+SL) I have never (yet) had an opponent attack the vypers - they always seem to go for the wave serpents first.. but the dakka that 3 wave serpents with 3 vypers in amongst them can dish out is horrendous.. with or without snap firing / 12 " / 6 " .. also I put the front wave serpent out there to jink.. I often don't shoot it's shield ( I shoot it last and make a decision based on expected next turn) this "front" wave serpent will jink.. the others will not have to they get "cover" saves by being off it's shoulder.. it sounds lame but like a line strung out across the table all of them get cover except the one at the front.. if people melee you it's cos you're not shooting them properly.. in all my games I can only think of one game where I was in melee when I didn't want to be.. and that was cos I had tabled him except for his termies and felt sorry for him

I don't think your opponents are good players.

morgoth wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
you can get 5 wave serpents and 3 wk for 1850 easily.. I think your list lacks way too much "dps" you are fragile if you are eldar you to be able to run the opponents list.. and you can't.... make the spiders 2 squads of 10, get rid of 2nd farseer. ...

I know, I invented those lists.

..

I don't think your opponents are good players.

aww bless I never realised - I do apologise - good luck with building your list

Here is a tip from a tourney player:
wraithknights are long gone...look at something else. Why, wolf pods for allies and draigo star. Hint hint...grav cannons. Oh and the common white scar biker list would trash this. Dont go overboard with triple wraithknights...only works at etc if you canchoose your match ups.

If you realy want a wraithknight...take one. Personally im going with 2 units of 3 bright lance war walkers and a night spinner.
.adds to the mech nature.

KillswitchUK wrote:
Here is a tip from a tourney player:
wraithknights are long gone...look at something else. Why, wolf pods for allies and draigo star. Hint hint...grav cannons. Oh and the common white scar biker list would trash this. Dont go overboard with triple wraithknights...only works at etc if you canchoose your match ups.

If you realy want a wraithknight...take one. Personally im going with 2 units of 3 bright lance war walkers and a night spinner.
.adds to the mech nature.

0.a) I don't see how 3 BL WW can be competitive
0.b) So you've got monofilament on a large blast at S7, and it costs less than a fire prism, which can do s5AP3 or S7AP2 or S9AP1, and somehow it's supposed to be more competitive ? Is it the S8 large blast against vehicles ? the off chance that one of the targets does get hit with AP1 ?


1. Why do you think a Draigowing is such a threat ? is it that you find the ranged firepower insufficient, and therefore expect the WK to be blown apart by the force weapons ?

2. Centurion star ? I don't think it stands a chance.

3. White Scars ? I guess that's a reasonable threat. But how much of a TAC list is that ? I think it dies to anything with assault.


I know Knights have big weaknesses, among which one they share with the rest of the usable Eldar units (grav), and that's why I'm asking for ideas on how to better build the list around that.

morgoth wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
you can get 5 wave serpents and 3 wk for 1850 easily.. I think your list lacks way too much "dps" you are fragile if you are eldar you to be able to run the opponents list.. and you can't.... make the spiders 2 squads of 10, get rid of 2nd farseer. ...

I know, I invented those lists.

Lol, hilarious. You invented them.

So I imagined it when I first told you to swap your Fire Prisms for Wraithknights long before you even had any Wraithknights? And that was only a couple of months ago. And I had to convince you of the Wraithknight's worth!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/601763.page

Morgoth, always worth a laugh, you tell us Wave a serpents are now crap and got nerfed in 7th. Then you told us Wraithknights weren't worth it. Now you invented the Triple Wraithknight list.

I'll get my popcorn and see what you come up with next.

------------


On a serious constructive note, you should listen to some of the advice you've been give, you've dismissed some that you simply don't understand and did so in a less than respectful manner.


DriagoStar, Driago now comes with auto Gate, which means Cent Stars are now popping around the board and can easily kill 1.5 Wraithknights per turn and have a 3++ ET Tanking the return fire. It's one form of Centurion Star. Did I mention they get to gate out of Combat? And that Driago can eat Wraithknights for Breakfast! Grav Cents also wreck Serpents pretty easily, two 6s is 3 HP and a wreck.

Also, thanks to Space Wolves and champions of Fenris you now face multiple Grav units arriving a Turn 1 from pods. A Double Cent Pods list with Omniscopes has a fair chance to AlphaStrike all three Wraithknights in a single turn.

Triple Wraithknights has more hard counters than ever, let alone the DE lists with Poison, Beastpacks, ScreamerStars, EuroPask, Seer Councils, that easily Rock them, or all of the easy tarp it's like Daemon Summoning that do exist.


PS White Scars won BAO. NightSpnners were in the winning NOVA Open list, Barrage is huge. And don't assume Holofields are mandatory anymore, none of the Eldar lists in the Top Bracket at NOVA had them.



What I'm really trying to say is how about you learn a bit of humility, and treat people with some respect. You aren't nearly as smart or 40k Savvy as you think you are. Not by a long shot.

My build:


HQ - Farseer w/ Jetbike, Singing Spear, Mantle of the Laughing God, Anath'Lan

Troops - 5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ TL-Scatter Laser & Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields

Troops - 5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ TL-Scatter Laser & Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields

Troops - 5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ TL-Scatter Laser & Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields

Troops - 5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ TL-Scatter Laser & Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields

Troops - 5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ TL-Scatter Laser & Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields

Elites - 5x Fire Dragons, Exarch w/ Firepike & Fastshot
Wave Serpent w/ TL-Scatter Laser & Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields

Heavy Support - Wraithknight w/ 2x Heavy Wraithcannon

Heavy Support - Wraithknight w/ 2x Heavy Wraithcannon

Which is 2000 points and not really optimized.

3 WKs
1 Farseer w/ JB SS
5 WS w/ SL SC
5x 5 DAs
Total: 1845

morgoth wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I play Serpent spam in a slightly different way.
The Serpents move at constant speed of 12'' and shoot away
and finally they stay at 24'' (or shorter range) to shoot all weapons:
tl scatter laser, underslung shuricannon, shield.

You play a quite different army.

I'd rather not play it your way.
If you stay in the right range to shoot all weapons, you will get charged, because it's 23", or 1 in six chances to be charged T1, 100% chance of being charged T2.
You can at most avoid being charged until T3 IF you fight at SL range.

If you move 12", your Shuriken Cannon is Snap Fire TL. Not totally crappy, but is it really worth risking a potentially fatal charge ? ...

Well, my Serpents should be in range of 24'' or less in T1 or T2. Then the Serpents will shoot all their weapons. Poor enemy.
Of course, you need to avoid getting assaulted. Therefore, I usually field 10 men DA (or Guardian) squads. They disembark and fire their pseudo rending weapons if the situation starts getting grim.
This tactics can pull you through trouble during the game. Its vital that the Serpents stay intact.
Moreover, against harder target I usually field FD's in Serpents or one WK.

morgoth wrote:
I'm having some doubts about my usual auto-include fire dragons when rolling with three WK @ 1850 points.

So this is a new idea:


3 Min DA Squad 195
3 Wraith Knight 720
2 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter 260
1 Wave Serpent Scatter 120
3 5 Warp Spiders 285
1 Farseer Bike MotlG 155
1 Naked BikeSeer 115


1850 points

I like what your trying to do with the extra farseer, I just dont see it being worth it. 2min jet bike squads would be better imo

 wuestenfux wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I play Serpent spam in a slightly different way.
The Serpents move at constant speed of 12'' and shoot away
and finally they stay at 24'' (or shorter range) to shoot all weapons:
tl scatter laser, underslung shuricannon, shield.

You play a quite different army.

I'd rather not play it your way.
If you stay in the right range to shoot all weapons, you will get charged, because it's 23", or 1 in six chances to be charged T1, 100% chance of being charged T2.
You can at most avoid being charged until T3 IF you fight at SL range.

If you move 12", your Shuriken Cannon is Snap Fire TL. Not totally crappy, but is it really worth risking a potentially fatal charge ? ...

Well, my Serpents should be in range of 24'' or less in T1 or T2. Then the Serpents will shoot all their weapons. Poor enemy.
Of course, you need to avoid getting assaulted. Therefore, I usually field 10 men DA (or Guardian) squads. They disembark and fire their pseudo rending weapons if the situation starts getting grim.
This tactics can pull you through trouble during the game. Its vital that the Serpents stay intact.
Moreover, against harder target I usually field FD's in Serpents or one WK.

You're playing against players who don't take advantage of your mistakes.

If your WS's shuriken cannon is within 24", your WS is within 23" and any 11 or 12" charge means it's dead.

And your 10 men squads are completely anti optimal.

Please stop posting in this thread, you don't know what you're talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I'm having some doubts about my usual auto-include fire dragons when rolling with three WK @ 1850 points.

So this is a new idea:


3 Min DA Squad 195
3 Wraith Knight 720
2 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter 260
1 Wave Serpent Scatter 120
3 5 Warp Spiders 285
1 Farseer Bike MotlG 155
1 Naked BikeSeer 115


1850 points

I like what your trying to do with the extra farseer, I just dont see it being worth it. 2min jet bike squads would be better imo

Thanks.

My previous list had 2 fragon / 2 DA min squads, both with holofields, one WS without shuriken, a mantleseer and a min jet bike squad.

My conclusion was that fragons were not necessary, holofields could be skipped, not rolling invisibility would make things harder, and the min jet bike squad was useless.


I think a big problem with my conclusion is that it's based on playing people that I smash, and not running against the top builds: On the one game I tried the aforementioned list, I lost 5 fragon, 5 DA and one WS, all due to my own mistakes, one of which was to bring a WS within 23" of ChaosSpawn for the greed shuriken shots.

That's why I want to make it stronger overall, and more capable of dealing with other competitive builds.


The naked seer is really the thing I have most doubts about, especially since I could also run 2 naked bikeseers and use the mantle points somewhere else.

About it being worth its points, it's a real dilemma: I can't weigh how survivable he would be, or how valuable invisibility on one Knight can be.

My usual lists had the cheapest HQ possible but I got tired of letting all those power dice go so I thought I'd give another try to those overpriced HQ choices...


The two games I've used 3 WK and one mantleseer, I rolled invisibility, it discouraged my opponent from finishing a 4W WK, and the other game I killed a Chaos Lord with blind fury that just got EW in chaos boon, plus a pack of chaos spawn, a maulerfiend and two 5-man plague marine squads. That was with failing every single important invisibility cast though, so maybe invisibility is not worth it in this case.


Which begs the question: should I drop 510 points and bring 3 WK a beaststar or seerstar and two WS - would that be an efficient use of those forced HQ choices ?


And also, I have no idea what those warp spiders really bring to the table, so it's more about goofing around to test units that could make better use of the points.


If I'm going to drop the naked jetseer, then I guess this is better than two windriders:

4 Min DA Squad 260
3 Wave Serpent Scatter + Holo 405
3 Wraith Knight 720
1 Wave Serpent Scatter 120
2 5 Warp Spiders 190
1 Farseer Bike MotlG 155

Haven't tried playing with 3 WKs yet, but from my own experience an upgrade from 1 to 2 is a great thing. Don't know about 3. Somehow I'm afraid that the disadvantages will outweigh the benefits due to loosing heavier when facing counters (mentioned in this thread already). But those are just my concerns...

When it comes to spamming WSs I lately came to a conclusion that it's beneficial to actually diverse them a little bit. For example, instead of spamming 5x DAVU I prefer to get 4 WSs but some of them having either Fragons inside or possibly Wraithguard. Well I've just started testing this approach so there is not much experience yet, but hopefully that will change soon.
You're gonna steamroll DE anyway with 4 WS, but it's gonna be way easier against Necrons, Tau or possibly even Imperial Knights. In theory at least. The only major drawback is even worse AA but I think we can live with that.

Lmao this guy. I can see why you'd never make the ETC team.

morgoth wrote:
Which is 2000 points and not really optimized.

Not really optimized? Pretty sure each unit represents the current max/min build. I don't know how you could kit any of the units out differently for better optimization in the meta, and I can't think of different Eldar units that are better than Wave Serpents, Wraithknights, or Farseers...

If that's all it took to make an optimized list, I'd have settled for it a long time ago and I wouldn't be posting other types of lists.

You have no fething idea what an optimized list is, this thread is pure comedy. I haven't figured out if you are functionally slowed, or trolling but either way I will not spend the effort trying to give you advice.

Hahaha he doesnt even know his own meta xD. Please tell me why on earth you would post such an average list and condemn others...infact no there nothing you could say realy is there. Ivr given you advice...take it or leave it. Wraithknights in large quantities are a joke now...if your meta keeps up with the times at least.

peteralmo wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Which is 2000 points and not really optimized.

Not really optimized? Pretty sure each unit represents the current max/min build. I don't know how you could kit any of the units out differently for better optimization in the meta, and I can't think of different Eldar units that are better than Wave Serpents, Wraithknights, or Farseers...

4 min DA / WS Scatter
2 WK
BeastStar or SeerStar

2000 points, and clearly better.