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blaktoof wrote: One of the things the public/private school system does do is allow for socialization of children, which is highly important. Kids need to be around other kids, and they need to be around "safe" strangers that are peers/teacher/mentor role so they can learn how to interact with each other. In many ways this is more important than anything they will learn in a particular subject, or all their subjects.
This. Absolutely, positively this. This is why I don't approve of Unschooling, or even Home-Schooling for that matter.
The true value of the required schooling (elementary <--> high school) isn't to teach academia to young people, but to teach them the bare minimum for how to function in society. Basic reading/comprehension and arithmetic are apart of that, but social skills are the most critically important thing you will (should) be learning in School, and that's something that you just can't learn from sitting around at home watching videos with your Mom, or whatever. Anecdotally, I've yet to meet a homeschooled person who wasn't at least a little socially awkward, including one of my sisters.
You can take your Kid and have him associate with a bunch of other simialrly-aged home school/unschooled kids daily to compensate... but at that point why not just them in School.
Lol @ people who think Socialization is a good thing in school.
Better to hang out with actual friends who you can screen(like you can with other homeschoolers) then to subject a kid to all the crap in public/private schools.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
And we've got the stupidity of Common Core going around.
Where it takes 5 minutes just to add 15 and 23
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Someone might think you oddly believe these things not to exist outside of public schools, and that children will never ever under any circumstances (possiblty) be faced with such challenges as adults or even as children just because parents keep them out of public schools.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 19:04:14
Someone might think you oddly believe these things not to exist outside of public schools, and that they will never ever under any circumstances (possiblty) be faced with such challenges as adults.
Yes, they exist outside of public school, but not to the same extent. In school you can't escape. Outside you can walk away. Plus you'll be a little more mature when they do come around and will be able to make the correct level headed decision. Instead of being a poor little kid who may not know better, will feel major peer pressure(at a time when they won't be able to resist it as well), and are generally more fragile.
Kids should hang out with other kids, but not kids who are bad influences. And do you really trust the schools to keep an eye on things?
If you are in school, you are trapped with the same people. You can't just get away from the bully or just ignore him. He's going to be there tomorrow and you have no choice to go or not. Same with drugs/alcohol and peer pressure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 19:08:20
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Common Core is more than just math. It needs refinement, as any system does, but a lot of the problem seems to come from a limited time where they teach why numbers work the way they do in 1st (and/or 2nd) grade, and it is different than what many parents are used to so they are flipping out. So essentially it is "not my math", and it doesn't help when you also have people making videos saying that Pres. Obama is creating a new Hitler Youth using Common Core. The parents and teachers need to work together to refine the system as well as understand what is going on.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Except there wasn't really anything wrong with the old way of doing math. It was a heck of a lot simpler.
I'm in college and I can't fathom why they're teaching kids math that way. There is a very simple way to add two numbers, they're just needlessly complicating it.
Putting a system out that needs "refinement" to the degree that common core needs is irresponsible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 19:10:25
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
blaktoof wrote: One of the things the public/private school system does do is allow for socialization of children, which is highly important. Kids need to be around other kids, and they need to be around "safe" strangers that are peers/teacher/mentor role so they can learn how to interact with each other. In many ways this is more important than anything they will learn in a particular subject, or all their subjects.
This. Absolutely, positively this. This is why I don't approve of Unschooling, or even Home-Schooling for that matter.
The true value of the required schooling (elementary <--> high school) isn't to teach academia to young people, but to teach them the bare minimum for how to function in society. Basic reading/comprehension and arithmetic are apart of that, but social skills are the most critically important thing you will (should) be learning in School, and that's something that you just can't learn from sitting around at home watching videos with your Mom, or whatever. Anecdotally, I've yet to meet a homeschooled person who wasn't at least a little socially awkward, including one of my sisters.
You can take your Kid and have him associate with a bunch of other simialrly-aged home school/unschooled kids daily to compensate... but at that point why not just them in School.
Lol @ people who think Socialization is a good thing in school.
Better to hang out with actual friends who you can screen(like you can with other homeschoolers) then to subject a kid to all the crap in public/private schools.
But at what point to you stop losing the ability to pretend that these problems will never be something they face in the real world? At some point they will be adults and you won't be able to screen their friends and they will live in a world with bullying, peer pressure, alcohol, illegal drugs, click culture etc.
Socialization lets them learn how to be part of that and navigate that while you are still influential in their development. They need to learn how to be part of a gakky environment so that they can be grownups in a gakky environment.
Grey Templar wrote: Except there wasn't really anything wrong with the old way of doing math. It was a heck of a lot simpler.
Other than it not teaching you why X+Y= Z, of course, just that it does. The new system helps teach why X+Y=Z.
Grey Templar wrote: I'm in college and I can't fathom why they're teaching kids math that way. There is a very simple way to add two numbers, they're just needlessly complicating it.
This still comes down to "not how I was taught therefore bad".
Grey Templar wrote: Putting a system out that needs "refinement" to the degree that common core needs is irresponsible.
That is assuming you are right about the level of refinement, which isn't exactly an objective standard.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Yeah. I hear getting away from the corner drug dealer at the end of the street is a lot easier than... getting away from the corner drug dealer by the lockers... Except that makes no sense. Unless you plan on locking your kid in the house all day, this kind of stuff is going to find them, and locking them in the house all day is just denying them a life.
Plus you'll be a little more mature when they do come around and will be able to make the correct level headed decision.
Kids who are sheltered from making mistakes never learn how to be mature.
And do you really trust the schools to keep an eye on things?
More than a parent who is gambling with their child's future. No parent can be considered objective about their kids, and any who think they can be are usually the worst kind of parent.
There is no public resource as tragically mismanaged and underfunded as our schools. The sad part is that even in that state, the kids still probable better off there than elsewhere.
Ahtman wrote: Common Core is more than just math. It needs refinement, as any system does, but a lot of the problem seems to come from a limited time where they teach why numbers work the way they do in 1st (and/or 2nd) grade, and it is different than what many parents are used to so they are flipping out. So essentially it is "not my math", and it doesn't help when you also have people making videos saying that Pres. Obama is creating a new Hitler Youth using Common Core. The parents and teachers need to work together to refine the system as well as understand what is going on.
An issue with that is when you also have a teacher that isn't worth their paycheck, and you have to help tutor your child with the homework yourself, and you can't explain basic concepts to them because the way they're doing it is pants-on-head stupid. I mean, I suppose that only lasts a generation or so, but who knows if in that span of time, we'll have the next mathematics teaching fad zip on though.
The Hitler Youth comments are just bad though. It's amazing how shameless crazy gets sometimes.
blaktoof wrote: One of the things the public/private school system does do is allow for socialization of children, which is highly important. Kids need to be around other kids, and they need to be around "safe" strangers that are peers/teacher/mentor role so they can learn how to interact with each other. In many ways this is more important than anything they will learn in a particular subject, or all their subjects.
This. Absolutely, positively this. This is why I don't approve of Unschooling, or even Home-Schooling for that matter.
The true value of the required schooling (elementary <--> high school) isn't to teach academia to young people, but to teach them the bare minimum for how to function in society. Basic reading/comprehension and arithmetic are apart of that, but social skills are the most critically important thing you will (should) be learning in School, and that's something that you just can't learn from sitting around at home watching videos with your Mom, or whatever. Anecdotally, I've yet to meet a homeschooled person who wasn't at least a little socially awkward, including one of my sisters.
You can take your Kid and have him associate with a bunch of other simialrly-aged home school/unschooled kids daily to compensate... but at that point why not just them in School.
Lol @ people who think Socialization is a good thing in school.
Better to hang out with actual friends who you can screen(like you can with other homeschoolers) then to subject a kid to all the crap in public/private schools.
But at what point to you stop losing the ability to pretend that these problems will never be something they face in the real world? At some point they will be adults and you won't be able to screen their friends and they will live in a world with bullying, peer pressure, alcohol, illegal drugs, click culture etc.
Socialization lets them learn how to be part of that and navigate that while you are still influential in their development. They need to learn how to be part of a gakky environment so that they can be grownups in a gakky environment.
You missed my next post.
Yes, they exist outside of public school, but not to the same extent. In school you can't escape. Outside you can walk away. Plus you'll be a little more mature when they do come around and will be able to make the correct level headed decision. Instead of being a poor little kid who may not know better, will feel major peer pressure(at a time when they won't be able to resist it as well), and are generally more fragile.
Kids should hang out with other kids, but not kids who are bad influences. And do you really trust the schools to keep an eye on things?
If you are in school, you are trapped with the same people. You can't just get away from the bully or just ignore him. He's going to be there tomorrow and you have no choice to go or not. Same with drugs/alcohol and peer pressure.
Just tossing a kid into the fire doesn't teach them to deal with this stuff. Too many make the wrong decisions without supervision.
It doesn't help that parents are often not involved, but the school system is a piss poor place for learning anything. Socialization included.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
daedalus wrote: An issue with that is when you also have a teacher that isn't worth their paycheck, and you have to help tutor your child with the homework yourself, and you can't explain basic concepts to them because the way they're doing it is pants-on-head stupid. I mean, I suppose that only lasts a generation or so, but who knows if in that span of time, we'll have the next mathematics teaching fad zip on though.
I'm not a big fan of the implementation but I understand what is being attempted. My issue is that to often I see people treating it as an antagonistic experience where instead of trying to make it work or understanding what the point is they just want to throw the whole thing away, which is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The teachers and the parents should be working together to try and find a better way of doing it and not be at each others throats. This also means the school systems need to do more to make sure the teachers know what they are doing and worth a paycheck.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Without problems kids won't learn how to deal with problems. Kids don't get more mature by being older, they get more mature by gaining experiences and learning how to deal with them. A 20 year old experiencing this for the first time has no more experience on how to deal with it than a 16 year old or a 10 year old.
Ahtman wrote: Common Core is more than just math. It needs refinement, as any system does, but a lot of the problem seems to come from a limited time where they teach why numbers work the way they do in 1st (and/or 2nd) grade, and it is different than what many parents are used to so they are flipping out. So essentially it is "not my math", and it doesn't help when you also have people making videos saying that Pres. Obama is creating a new Hitler Youth using Common Core. The parents and teachers need to work together to refine the system as well as understand what is going on.
The math being noted in Common Core is not new. Its one reason my Boy made excellent money tutoring math. he did it by showing them how to do math the old school way.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Iron_Captain wrote: I support this initiative. There is more to life than math and grammar. Of course, this 'unschooling' won't get you to university, but is that really so important?
I think the best would be to find a balance. Three days of normal schools, two days of 'unschooling', or something like that. A lot of kids are really stressed out, overworked and hyperactive nowadays, and this 'back to nature' thing is the best remedy.
Too bad this would be highly illegal in the Netherlands. The government would snatch your kids away from you and force them into school
The ability to succeed in a university is. And kids already have unstructured plat, it's called the weekend and the summer.
And why would this ability be so important?
Weekend and summer vacations only are not enough, especially not considering they are crammed to the brink with homework.
Eventually a job is going to require you to sit down, shut up and do some work. And the ability to sit down and do a mind numbing task is what is needed for college.
Common Core is a whole other thread and I have yet to see a legitimate argument against it that doesn't involve gross misunderstandings about what it actually teaches.
Howard A Treesong wrote: They aren't crammed to the brink with homework until GCSE years aged 15-16. Primary school children up to the age of 10 almost never have homework.
That's not necessarily the case in American primary schools. It can vary by school, but younger and younger students are getting more and more homework in general.
As I got older I definitely had less and less homework, and I always found it odd. Many teachers gave me no homework at all. I remember in elementary I'd come home with a stack of hand outs for everything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 21:39:22
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
LordofHats wrote: As I got older I definitely had less and less homework, and I always found it odd. Many teachers gave me no homework at all. I remember in elementary I'd come home with a stack of hand outs for everything.
Its definitely true in college. Maybe one small assignment a week, an in-class quiz every 1-2 weeks, and 3-5 midterms+Final.
The closest thing to any real homework would be in-class work you just do in class and turn in immediately.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Yeah but college (at least for me) made up for it with lots of projects, some of them lasting the whole semester. Those were fun. All those hand outs though *shiver*
Yes, they exist outside of public school, but not to the same extent. In school you can't escape. Outside you can walk away. Plus you'll be a little more mature when they do come around and will be able to make the correct level headed decision. Instead of being a poor little kid who may not know better, will feel major peer pressure(at a time when they won't be able to resist it as well), and are generally more fragile.
Kids should hang out with other kids, but not kids who are bad influences. And do you really trust the schools to keep an eye on things?
If you are in school, you are trapped with the same people. You can't just get away from the bully or just ignore him. He's going to be there tomorrow and you have no choice to go or not. Same with drugs/alcohol and peer pressure.
Just tossing a kid into the fire doesn't teach them to deal with this stuff. Too many make the wrong decisions without supervision.
It doesn't help that parents are often not involved, but the school system is a piss poor place for learning anything. Socialization included.
And that is why, as a parent you make sure your child understands that if someone ever offers them drugs or starts to bully them that they can come and talk to you. And you reinforce that over and over again.
So then you have a child who, when faced with a drug dealer can say no and come and tell you. Then you contact the school and possibly the police and get that child removed. It's almost as if there are policies and official rules for this kind of thing...
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Yes, they exist outside of public school, but not to the same extent. In school you can't escape. Outside you can walk away. Plus you'll be a little more mature when they do come around and will be able to make the correct level headed decision. Instead of being a poor little kid who may not know better, will feel major peer pressure(at a time when they won't be able to resist it as well), and are generally more fragile.
Kids should hang out with other kids, but not kids who are bad influences. And do you really trust the schools to keep an eye on things?
If you are in school, you are trapped with the same people. You can't just get away from the bully or just ignore him. He's going to be there tomorrow and you have no choice to go or not. Same with drugs/alcohol and peer pressure.
Just tossing a kid into the fire doesn't teach them to deal with this stuff. Too many make the wrong decisions without supervision.
It doesn't help that parents are often not involved, but the school system is a piss poor place for learning anything. Socialization included.
And that is why, as a parent you make sure your child understands that if someone ever offers them drugs or starts to bully them that they can come and talk to you. And you reinforce that over and over again.
So then you have a child who, when faced with a drug dealer can say no and come and tell you. Then you contact the school and possibly the police and get that child removed. It's almost as if there are policies and official rules for this kind of thing...
How many kids will actually do that?
Especially if they know the person, doubly so if that person is intimidating.
Not very many kids have the courage to tell their parents about bullies. Usually its the side effects which reveal bullying, not the kid saying "Bobby is mean to me". The same with another kid selling drugs, he's going to use heavy handed tactics so nobody tells.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Especially if they know the person, doubly so if that person is intimidating.
Not very many kids have the courage to tell their parents about bullies. Usually its the side effects which reveal bullying, not the kid saying "Bobby is mean to me". The same with another kid selling drugs, he's going to use heavy handed tactics so nobody tells.
So why do you expect adults to do it either, if they haven't learned whilst they were children that telling someone is the best solution? And actually had to do it?
As to children not having the courage, I disagree. With supportive parents and teachers, it becomes a lot easier.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 22:17:30
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Especially if they know the person, doubly so if that person is intimidating.
Not very many kids have the courage to tell their parents about bullies. Usually its the side effects which reveal bullying, not the kid saying "Bobby is mean to me". The same with another kid selling drugs, he's going to use heavy handed tactics so nobody tells.
So why do you expect adults to do it either, if they haven't learned whilst they were children that telling someone is the best solution? And actually had to do it?
Because adults are adults. They're cognitively mature.
And because they were homeschooled, their parents actually gave them attention. As opposed to public school children who may or may not have received that attention. Homeschooled kids are far more likely to have had that attention and specific coaching on what to do(given that at least of the parents was staying home spending time with them)
Homeschooled kids also interact with adults more, instead of segregating with other children. This means they tend to develop more maturely.
Hanging out with kids just teaches you to be a kid. Hanging out with adults teaches you to be an adult.
As to children not having the courage, I disagree. With supportive parents and teachers, it becomes a lot easier.
Sure, if we actually had that. As it is, we have overworked and poor teachers and apathetic parents as a general rule.
Its hardly a wonder we have a bullying problem(only made worse by social media)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 22:22:26
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
People talk about schooling a hell of a lot. It occurs to me that if the parents are committed to their kids education, then the kid turns out fine no matter the school (or even if there's no school). And at the same time, if the parents aren't committed to the kid's schooling and think that it is the school's responsibility alone, well then you've got problems no matter how good the school might be.
School, essentially, is a government resource that helps parents in the education of their children. It isn't and can't ever be the whole of their schooling. But we fixate on schools in such absolute terms, to the point where people hold actual hostility towards schools, and others are hostile towards people who want to do something other than send their kids to school.
Seriously, take responsibility for your kid's education. Work through the textbook with them, and work with them not just to cover the teacher's work, but to the limits of the kid's ability. And when it comes time to pick a school, don't just talk about what a school should do for you child - go and find the best school for your kid, and anything they don't provide make sure you do that yourself.
daedalus wrote: An issue with that is when you also have a teacher that isn't worth their paycheck, and you have to help tutor your child with the homework yourself, and you can't explain basic concepts to them because the way they're doing it is pants-on-head stupid.
Not really. Most parents will have to refresh their memory and give the text a read in order to help their kids even the material is identical to what they learned. And if the parent can't figure out common core, which ultimately is still just schoolwork for kids, well then there's probably issues there beyond common core not being immediately intuitive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 06:59:36
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
And because they were homeschooled, their parents actually gave them attention. As opposed to public school children who may or may not have received that attention. Homeschooled kids are far more likely to have had that attention and specific coaching on what to do(given that at least of the parents was staying home spending time with them)
and this
Grey Templar wrote: As it is, we have overworked and poor teachers and apathetic parents as a general rule.
Seem completely at odds with one another. How can you damn traditional schooling by saying parents are apathetic generally, then praise homeschooling and the like by saying parents will pay good attention and be given specific coaching etc by those same general parents?
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
And because they were homeschooled, their parents actually gave them attention. As opposed to public school children who may or may not have received that attention. Homeschooled kids are far more likely to have had that attention and specific coaching on what to do(given that at least of the parents was staying home spending time with them)
and this
Grey Templar wrote: As it is, we have overworked and poor teachers and apathetic parents as a general rule.
Seem completely at odds with one another. How can you damn traditional schooling by saying parents are apathetic generally, then praise homeschooling and the like by saying parents will pay good attention and be given specific coaching etc by those same general parents?
Because parents who are willing to home school are among those who aren't apathetic and want better for their kids. And also realize what a clusterfeth public school is.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
So you are either a good parent who loves their child and home schools them so that you can control every single thing that they are exposed to.
Or you are a bad parent who doesn't want good things for their child and who sends their child to public school and never checks on their progress or what they are actually doing.