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Are the Hawks able to skyleap the same turn they arrive?I have found nothing in the rules that forbid them to do that, the closer rule is in the flyer section where is specified that a flyer cannot leave the field the same turn they arrive but they are not flyers. If that is possible, a squad of 6 could be easily used as a bombardment unit with almost no counter (but intercept) with unlimited range and untouchable and able to secure linebreaker every game.

Another argument I have seen is about if they can start on turn 1 on the table, skyleap and then DS turn 2. Some people say that because the DS rule specifies that a unit must start in reserves in order to DS the hawks lose their DS. But when the hawks leave the field they go into ongoing reserves which follow the same rules as reserves. So wouldn't the Hawks keep their DS as ongoing reserves?

So what are your thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Arnais wrote:
Are the Hawks able to skyleap the same turn they arrive?I have found nothing in the rules that forbid them to do that

Covered in the Skyleap rule itself, immediately after it talks about Ongoing Reserves.

Arnais wrote:
Another argument I have seen is about if they can start on turn 1 on the table, skyleap and then DS turn 2. Some people say that because the DS rule specifies that a unit must start in reserves in order to DS the hawks lose their DS. But when the hawks leave the field they go into ongoing reserves which follow the same rules as reserves. So wouldn't the Hawks keep their DS as ongoing reserves?

It is weird, but that's what the Deep Strike rules say. Whilst I'd be fine with it, that's purely HIWPI and not RAW.

 Quanar wrote:

Arnais wrote:
Are the Hawks able to skyleap the same turn they arrive?I have found nothing in the rules that forbid them to do that

Covered in the Skyleap rule itself, immediately after it talks about Ongoing Reserves.

Arnais wrote:
Another argument I have seen is about if they can start on turn 1 on the table, skyleap and then DS turn 2. Some people say that because the DS rule specifies that a unit must start in reserves in order to DS the hawks lose their DS. But when the hawks leave the field they go into ongoing reserves which follow the same rules as reserves. So wouldn't the Hawks keep their DS as ongoing reserves?

It is weird, but that's what the Deep Strike rules say. Whilst I'd be fine with it, that's purely HIWPI and not RAW.

I can't believe I never saw that phrase, thanks. I didn't do it anyway because I wasn't sure and it felt way too overpowered but now is nice to not have the temptation XD. Well they still excel at bombing pathfinders and decimating a kroot squad in the same turn.

Could that rule be interpreted to mean start the turn in reserve?

 Homeskillet wrote:
Could that rule be interpreted to mean start the turn in reserve?

Depends what you mean by "interpreted"? Word-for-word, the Deep Strike rules tells you that in order to deep-strike, you must start the game in reserve. IMO there's not much room for 'interpretation' there. You could argue intent, but since none of us have a psychic link to the games development team, it's a bit tenuous.

Given how few units are capable of it (I'm struggling to think of any beyond Hawks and any Forgeworld flyer), I'm just going to assume that GW didn't even consider the possibility when writing the rule.

Arnais wrote:
I can't believe I never saw that phrase, thanks. I didn't do it anyway because I wasn't sure and it felt way too overpowered but now is nice to not have the temptation XD. Well they still excel at bombing pathfinders and decimating a kroot squad in the same turn.

I come from the land of Team Zero Comp. Embrace the over-powered.

I have beeen playing Hawks for a while. I start 'em on table and bounce them out to Ongoing Reserves, from which they most assuredly wrack up Maelstrom points. And they occassionally manage to kill a tac-equivalent unit (combined template and LasBlaster shooting). Not often though.

For me, there's no real ambiguity. Sky Leap is one of the better, clearer rules GW has managed to pen.

Their Swooping Hawk wings makes them Jump Infantry, which grants them all Deep Strike. Their Skyleap rules states that they go into Ongoing reserves (so automatically come back on). Any interpretation that deprives them of deep striking back on means that the Gate Of Infinity power can't work either, nor any other related power where the entire units did not both 1) have deep strike and 2) start in reserves.

See also:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600053.page#6926237
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613892.page#7181358

There's no problem with Swooping Hawks Deep Striking from ongoing reserves after Skyleaping. As long as they started the game in deep strike reserve. The rules are quite clear on this.

 Quanar wrote:
Given how few units are capable of it (I'm struggling to think of any beyond Hawks and any Forgeworld flyer), I'm just going to assume that GW didn't even consider the possibility when writing the rule.

Mawlocs.

 Happyjew wrote:
Mawlocs.

Ah yes, thank you. Are Mawlocs worded similarly to Hawks or does it specifically mention Deep Strike?

Remove from table and place it into Ongoing Reserves.

Interesting to note, Terror From the Deep refers to arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, so strict RAW, you cannot Terror From the Deep after Burrowing.

It also would mean that a psyker can't use GoI unless they started the game in reserves....

When debating a rule, I always go for the answer that doesn't break the game.

Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

Maybe the digital or non-english books mention Deep Strike, but it's utterly absent from the Skyleap rule I've got in front of me. Strictly RAW you'd have to walk on from your edge afterwards. That said, I've yet to meet anyone who argued that as RAI, and if I did I'd have to break out the Sarcastic Eyebrow.

GoI is a better example of specific beats general, otherwise you'd never be able to cast it on any unit that wasn't entirely made up of models with the Deep Strike rule that started the game in DS reserves.

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Crons can have this happen too.

Shrouding (veil thing, cant remember the name) to move about the board, then you mishap and go into ongoing reserves. You are placed in ongoing reserve so you deepstrike back, not just walk back on. Right?

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?
Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

You've claimed "The rules are quite clear on this" twice. Would you please care to provide citation? Page?

As I have been playing them against GT winning opponents:
1. Start birds on the table.
2. Skyleap out.
3. Automatically come on Turn 2, because of Ongoing Reserves.
4. Deep Strike because they're jumpers.

RAI: Deep Strike because that's their whole thing: Drop the template and shoot crappy guns.

So, if the GT stomping dudes, who darn well know the RB (some of whom play eldar) are not pointing out that I should walk them on, might you be mistaken, Tonberry7?

Further, for those who think they can bop out the turn they arrive, no. Second sentence on page 35, "[skyleap] cannot be done in the same turn that the unit arrives from Reserve."
So,
5. Birds stay on table for Turn 2.
6. Turn 3, Skyleap out again.
7. Turn 4, re-arrive, without a Reserve Roll, and not scattering either, cuz 6 birds don't scatter.
8. Keep on table Turn 5 in case you don't wanna have them cost you a point for being in Reserve on Purge or other such missions.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?
Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

You've claimed "The rules are quite clear on this" twice. Would you please care to provide citation? Page?

As I have been playing them against GT winning opponents:
1. Start birds on the table.
2. Skyleap out.
3. Automatically come on Turn 2, because of Ongoing Reserves.
4. Deep Strike because they're jumpers.

RAI: Deep Strike because that's their whole thing: Drop the template and shoot crappy guns.

So, if the GT stomping dudes, who darn well know the RB (some of whom play eldar) are not pointing out that I should walk them on, might you be mistaken, Tonberry7?.

Strict RAW, Tonberry is correct. In order to deep strike, you must start the game in deep strike reserves. Furthermore, nothing in any rule allows you to place models in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore, if a unit leaves the table, via Skyleap, Burrow, or leaving Combat Airspace, then they enter Ongoing Rseserves, but not Deep Strike Reserves.

Yes this does mean that technically, GoI, VoD, Terror from the Deep/Burrow, Skyleap/Herald of Victory does not always work.

That being said, I think it is clear that the intent for all of these is to work all the time, and therefore you can Deep Strike after Skyleap.

 Happyjew wrote:
Strict RAW, Tonberry is correct. In order to deep strike, you must start the game in deep strike reserves. Furthermore, nothing in any rule allows you to place models in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore, if a unit leaves the table, via Skyleap, Burrow, or leaving Combat Airspace, then they enter Ongoing Rseserves, but not Deep Strike Reserves.

Yes this does mean that technically, GoI, VoD, Terror from the Deep/Burrow, Skyleap/Herald of Victory does not always work.

That being said, I think it is clear that the intent for all of these is to work all the time, and therefore you can Deep Strike after Skyleap.

Nicely done, HJ.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?
Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

You've claimed "The rules are quite clear on this" twice. Would you please care to provide citation? Page?

As I have been playing them against GT winning opponents:
1. Start birds on the table.
2. Skyleap out.
3. Automatically come on Turn 2, because of Ongoing Reserves.
4. Deep Strike because they're jumpers.

RAI: Deep Strike because that's their whole thing: Drop the template and shoot crappy guns.

So, if the GT stomping dudes, who darn well know the RB (some of whom play eldar) are not pointing out that I should walk them on, might you be mistaken, Tonberry7?

Am I mistaken? Absolutely not. The rules regarding Deep Striking are unambiguous.

Your response is to ask for rule citations and then proceed to outline an HIWPI argument which I find a little strange. You appear to be saying "This is how I've always played it, so it must be right", and attempt to validate this argument with references to "GT stomping dudes", which has no merit or relevance in a discussion of the actual RAW. You can play whoever you want, with any house rules that you want, but the fact of the matter is that the RAW give you no permission to Skyleap off the table in Turn 1 and then Deep Strike back on in Turn 2.

For the citations you are requesting, look to the Deep Strike rule. It explicitly states that in order to Deep Strike a unit must have the Deep Strike rule and must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If you deploy your hawks on the table on Turn 1 you cannot possibly satisfy the second requirement at any point in the game. Swooping Hawks have no special rules giving permission to Deep Strike any differently than in accordance with the RAW, nor do the rules for Ongoing Reserves. The Skyleap rule does not even mention Deep Strike and so any Codex > Rulebook argument is non-existent.

In terms of your RAI claims, there is no way you can be certain of the intent of the writers. An equally valid interpretation would be that the rules were written as they were to specifically prevent exploitation of Skyleap to perform a guaranteed Turn 2 Deep Strike and circumventing having to take your chances with reserves rolls like everyone else. As for doing "their thing" as you put it (which also has no relevance in a RAW discussion), why would a bunch of winged warriors who specialise in swooping in to the battle even consider starting a battle standing around on the ground just like normal footslogging infantry?

As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.


Of course, I don't think this is intended, nor would I play it that way.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Dude, HJ pretty much confirmed / corroborated / verified that you've got the ruling right, the RAW.

And it seems that most of California's players are going with RAI. And yeah, I guess that's our statewide, region wide, House Rule / interpretation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.

Of course, I don't think this is intended, nor would I play it that way.

Well, HJ, then you'd be playing it *wrong*, man.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.

I originally thought this too but just to be clear, I don't think there's any restriction on Deep Striking back on from Ongoing Reserve as long as the Hawks meet the requirement for having started the game in Deep Strike Reserve. So they could potentially Deep Strike in Turn 2 if they pass their reserve roll, Skyleap in Turn 3 and automatically Deep Strike again in Turn 4 etc.

It's just the so-called tactic of starting on the board, Skyleap on Turn 1 and Deep Striking on Turn 2 that is illegal because in this scenario they cannot possibly meet one of the fundamental rule requirements to Deep Strike, namely having started the game in Deep Strike Reserve. They can still re-join the battle by walking on from their table edge though.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Dude, HJ pretty much confirmed / corroborated / verified that you've got the ruling right, the RAW.

And it seems that most of California's players are going with RAI. And yeah, I guess that's our statewide, region wide, House Rule / interpretation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.

Of course, I don't think this is intended, nor would I play it that way.

Well, HJ, then you'd be playing it *wrong*, man.

By that interpretation, Gate of Infinity won't work on anyone who started on the board either. Agree/disagree? I disagree. Ditto for mawlocs and anything else with similar wording.

Can you explain why Gates of Infinity wouldn't work given that the target unit isn't actually deep striking. The power just gives them permission to move somewhere else on the table and tells us to place the models using the same method detailed in the DS rules.

If you think they are in fact deep striking you couldn't use that power on any model that doesn't have the DS rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Can you explain why Gates of Infinity wouldn't work given that the target unit isn't actually deep striking. The power just gives them permission to move somewhere else on the table and tells us to place the models using the same method detailed in the DS rules.

If you think they are in fact deep striking you couldn't use that power on any model that doesn't have the DS rule.

See the GoI rules. It arrives back " immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike". Any interpretation that denies Skyleap denies GoI.

Note that Skyleap doesn't mention Deep Strike, presumably because it is ONLY available on a Jump infantry model, which gives the DS rule itself.

You're right. GoI gives the unit specific permission to immediately be placed by deep strike, overriding the BRB requirements to be able to do so. However Swooping Hawks have no such permission to ignore the prerequisites for deep striking.

As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.

If one want to read things in a brutally contrived fashion, you can make the argument, but that same reading also bans anything else, including GoI users who
1) Don't have the deep strike already
2) did NOT start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.


#1 is what nixes GoI users, bc: Since GoI does not say it grants units the DS rule - just that you use those to put them back on. no DS rule? Can't DS.
#2 is the argument against Hawks and it would then apply against ANYONE using GoI who hadn't started in DS Reserves.

In 5th ed codex they could jump in and out the same turn, they lost that in sixth and someone still wants to nerf them harder and is grasping at straws.