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I have not read fluff from any GK codex, just from online and they typically just send squads to work alongside other Imperials such as AM, SM or PDF, rather than wage wars alone, so have they limited options and builds so that they will become common allies for other armies rather than an army on their own just like with the Inquisition?

Do you believe this or do you believe that GW just wanted to make sales from the codex?

I'm cynical, so I will say SALES was the driving reason.

Yeah I probably agree too but it would be nice if they did it for a reason other than that.

Probably both.

As well GK also were an allied army from the get go (daemon hunters). so take that as you will.

True they do stuff themselves, but a lot of the existing fluff also has them arriving to battles at a later state when daemons are involved.

But 7th seems to be the "allies" edition in general

 Desubot wrote:
Probably both.

As well GK also were an allied army from the get go (daemon hunters). so take that as you will.

I'm with the both arguement as well. Yes sales are always a driving factor (it's why the Carnifex isn't garbage now for Nids while the Trygon got beat with the hammer), but honestly Grey Knights feel like Grey Knights. Plus allies for them has been a thing since 3rd, so it only makes sense that and army who has fluff of allying with other Imperial assets to accomplish their mission would need allies on the table to balance them out a bit.

What do you mean limited GK? You can produce the exact same lists now as you could in 2011 when the 5th edition book was the rage.

 PhillyT wrote:
What do you mean limited GK? You can produce the exact same lists now as you could in 2011 when the 5th edition book was the rage.

I meant not adding new units and pushing towards terminators being better than strikes etc

SGTPozy wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
What do you mean limited GK? You can produce the exact same lists now as you could in 2011 when the 5th edition book was the rage.

I meant not adding new units and pushing towards terminators being better than strikes etc

Fluff-wise, Grey Knights mostly do what they do in Terminator armor

The only real push that made GKT better than GKSS was the change to Psycannons. If you ran Incinerators, or Psilencers (also, if you ran those, congrats, you're rarer than Sisters players!) on them instead they didn't really lost much. The rest was really tiny buffs to the GKT to make them less horrendously priced (because honestly Terminators have been overpriced for a long while now and they're finally addressing it).

And at the end of the day, considering the previous Psycannon statline and the Salvo weapon rule, it's clear that it's obviously supposed to be a Salvo weapon, just a little before actual the actual Salvo rule was out there. So that change isn't really surprising, and fits the way the weapon works fine in my book. It kicks the GKSS in the teeth a bit, but instead of lamenting how bad it is I think it's a good time to reevaluate how you want to use the Psycannon on them, or if you'd be better switching to a different special weapon instead.

I think there is likely a way to use the GKSS, but it's not the same as it used to be. That said, I was always more partial to the look of a Terminator heavy army so maybe I admit a potential bias towards them as well.

That and they made terminators cheaper

A kitted out terminator squad costs less than an old naked squad.

That is a huge buff.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
That and they made terminators cheaper

I mentioned that. But that's not really a nerf to the GKSS, it's a buff to fix an oversight regarding how poorly Terminators were costed.

Plus the change to the Nemesis Force Sword is no longer a nerf for PAGK to use it if you're trying to keep them extra cheap, so that's potentially a buff to the PAGK units there if you're trying to spam the most bodies possible.

EDIT: Tensing issue there in my second sentence.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
That and they made terminators cheaper

I mentioned that. But that's not really a nerf to the GKSS, it's a buff to fix an oversight regarding how poorly Terminators are costed.

Plus the change to the Nemesis Force Sword is no longer a nerf for PAGK to use it if you're trying to keep them extra cheap, so that's potentially a buff to the PAGK units there if you're trying to spam the most bodies possible.

I never saw the old sword as a nerf to PAGK. It was just a buff to terminators who used it. Now its nothing special.

I can see why they removed it, now that we have easy access to the Sanctuary power.

Yea, the sword basically did nothing on PAGKs anyways.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
That and they made terminators cheaper

I mentioned that. But that's not really a nerf to the GKSS, it's a buff to fix an oversight regarding how poorly Terminators are costed.

Plus the change to the Nemesis Force Sword is no longer a nerf for PAGK to use it if you're trying to keep them extra cheap, so that's potentially a buff to the PAGK units there if you're trying to spam the most bodies possible.

I never saw the old sword as a nerf to PAGK. It was just a buff to terminators who used it. Now its nothing special.

I can see why they removed it, now that we have easy access to the Sanctuary power.

I knew a lot of people argued that it was a waste on PAGK because it didn't give them a benefit so you "had" to go with Halberds instead (since they were so superior than pretty much everything). I think the changes lower the opportunity cost for sticking with the basic sword at least.

But that's just my $.02 on the sword.

I think it's a combo of fluff and time.

GW may not have had the time to design a new range of GK minis, and felt that for whom they are they're in a pretty good place anyway.

GKs are somewhat limited in that they're so infantry based. you'll notice all their vehicles are transports.

You only "had" to go halberds on the PAGK who got them cheap enough to make it worthwhile.

Strike marines with halberds were only 1 point cheaper than Purifiers with halberds. And purifiers got one more attack, cleansing flame, fearless, and 4 special weapon slots for that one extra point apiece.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You only "had" to go halberds on the PAGK who got them cheap enough to make it worthwhile.

Strike marines with halberds were only 1 point cheaper than Purifiers with halberds. And purifiers got one more attack, cleansing flame, fearless, and 4 special weapon slots for that one extra point apiece.

Yeah, some of the points costs were not very good for internal balance. Which surprised me since Ward typically doesn't internally unbalance books that obviously. I mean every codex had it's obvious best you its but his books usually didn't make it that blatant.

That was ok. Strike Squads were kinda lame anyway when you could take Terminators instead. And if you wanted Warp Quake you'd just get some Interceptors.

yeah hoenstly GW needs to step back and re-examine strike squads a bit they don't really have their own niche beyond "I'm too cheap to take termies" I'd give em the scout special rule. it would fit their fluff as being an advanced force sent ahead of the main vanguard to secure beachheads etc

Well their niche is that they're normal Power Armor guys that can deep strike.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well their niche is that they're normal Power Armor guys that can deep strike.

Interceptors get that too

BrianDavion wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well their niche is that they're normal Power Armor guys that can deep strike.

Interceptors get that too

True but interceptors also get mobility on top of that and a shunt.

Strikes are bare bones deep strikers

Other than having the niche of being PA troops who deep strike, they got nothing special to offer.

I'll take Terminators as troops as use Interceptors as DS spotters.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Other than having the niche of being PA troops who deep strike, they got nothing special to offer.

I'll take Terminators as troops as use Interceptors as DS spotters.

yeah thats my thought as well.

At the moment, I'm thinking the best use for GMSS is as "PT-less Interceptors" that DS rather than jump/shunt, i.e., take them as cheapish reinforcements that DS to the target. Probably only good in CADs to unlock NDK spam, or in Highlander formats as a second troop. Currently, I'm thinking on moving all my plastic PAGK to Interceptors (thankfully all their backpacks are magnetized), and all my metal PAGK to Purifiers (because what else am I going to do with those paperweights?).

SJ