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Now, my title might suck, but I really don't know how better to word it in a way that'll fit in the title box...

I'm getting more and more into warhammer 40K. I've always been vaguely aware of its existence, I've played a video game and boardgame or two set in the warhammer universe(not specifically 40K, though) but only recently have I really looked deeper into it. I looked over the rulebook and some codices at a gameshop awhile ago, just enough to get vaguely familiar with the rules, as well as online sources to help me better understand them. and, the only thing really holding me back from investing in an army and starting on a collection is, I'm worried that the kind of games I like to play will be impossible to actually find, especially since I don't know anyone who plays.

This comes mostly from my experience with other, similar games - particularly Magic the Gathering, but also things like heroclix, table-top RPGs, and just about any social, even semi-competitive games. I always make characters, decks, whatever word is used for that game that are either gimmicky/themey, or has in game lore behind it - I don't care about meta-gaming, or anything of the sort. With warhammer, for me, this would mean either what I suppose could be called "fluff" armies, that are focused more on "what units would actually be in the same detachments" than "what units are the best for their point cost".

In nearly every other game I've played, this is impossible for me as everyone I manage to find pick up games with are min-maxers who use whatever they're "supposed" to use rather than what's fun...So, as a whole, how is the WH40K community on this? For what it's worth, I live near PDX oregon, since I'm sure things change area to area as with everything else. So, I suppose in short my question is "is it even worth the investment for someone who doesn't give a damn about min-maxing or optimal strategies?"

Yeah, sorry, there isn't really a good answer to give before you can answer the obligatory question on what your meta is like. I live in a weird place where I can easily find extremely competitive, no mercy, no-effort-army matches (cough cough GW cough cough) and yet also friendly, casual campaigns/events at far less serious local clubs that are equally as active.

You'll see plenty of stories about no-mercy win at all costs people, and also plenty of reports of events only for friendly/casual play. The internet won't give you a straight answer on that one.

Honestly, you can make a fluffy army that has a chance against some competitive players, especially and safely with armies like Tau and Eldar, but there will be opponents that will have armies that are very, very difficult to beat without optimised levels of killing power.

Totally depends on your local Meta.
Mine relies almost exclusively on pick up games, so for me, 40k doesn't really work. If you get a tight knit group with similar ideas of what makes a fun game, you're set.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Yeah, sorry, there isn't really a good answer to give before you can answer the obligatory question on what your meta is like. I live in a weird place where I can easily find extremely competitive, no mercy, no-effort-army matches (cough cough GW cough cough) and yet also friendly, casual campaigns/events at far less serious local clubs that are equally as active.

You'll see plenty of stories about no-mercy win at all costs people, and also plenty of reports of events only for friendly/casual play. The internet won't give you a straight answer on that one.

Honestly, you can make a fluffy army that has a chance against some competitive players, especially and safely with armies like Tau and Eldar, but there will be opponents that will have armies that are very, very difficult to beat without optimised levels of killing power.

Well, like I (think I) said, I haven't even bought any models yet. But, I have made a few mock up lists just out of boredom, the one I'm mostly likely going to be buying first is a CSM/CD 1K pointer

combined arms detachment
HQ - Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Aura of Dark Glory
troops - 6x Chaos Space Marines w/ mark of tzeentch, 1x Aspiring champion
troops - 6x Chaos Space Marines w/ mark of tzeentch, 1x Aspiring champion
elite - 5x thousand sons, 1x aspiring sorcerer

allied detachment
HQ - Daemon Prince w/ added psyker level(2), mark of tzeentch
troop - 9x pink horror, 1x iridescent horror
troop - 9x pink horror, 1x iridescent horror

It could suck, it could be amazing, I'm honestly really not sure. So far I've been focusing more on the rules, because they're required to play, and the lore, because it's fun rather than strats or tourny level play or anything.

Acheros wrote:
Now, my title might suck, but I really don't know how better to word it in a way that'll fit in the title box...

I'm getting more and more into warhammer 40K. I've always been vaguely aware of its existence, I've played a video game and boardgame or two set in the warhammer universe(not specifically 40K, though) but only recently have I really looked deeper into it. I looked over the rulebook and some codices at a gameshop awhile ago, just enough to get vaguely familiar with the rules, as well as online sources to help me better understand them. and, the only thing really holding me back from investing in an army and starting on a collection is, I'm worried that the kind of games I like to play will be impossible to actually find, especially since I don't know anyone who plays.

This comes mostly from my experience with other, similar games - particularly Magic the Gathering, but also things like heroclix, table-top RPGs, and just about any social, even semi-competitive games. I always make characters, decks, whatever word is used for that game that are either gimmicky/themey, or has in game lore behind it - I don't care about meta-gaming, or anything of the sort. With warhammer, for me, this would mean either what I suppose could be called "fluff" armies, that are focused more on "what units would actually be in the same detachments" than "what units are the best for their point cost".

In nearly every other game I've played, this is impossible for me as everyone I manage to find pick up games with are min-maxers who use whatever they're "supposed" to use rather than what's fun...So, as a whole, how is the WH40K community on this? For what it's worth, I live near PDX oregon, since I'm sure things change area to area as with everything else. So, I suppose in short my question is "is it even worth the investment for someone who doesn't give a damn about min-maxing or optimal strategies?"

If you don't know anyone in your local area that plays, and if there's not, like, a local gaming store that has a contingent of 40K players, then it doesn't really matter, as you'll probably not be playing the game very often.

In that case? If I were you, I'd get a small collection of models to paint and make look nice, and spend my gaming dollars on something that was more popular in my local area. With this, it all depends on the people you play with. If they are also into just fluff lists, then you should be fine. Though even certain fluff lists are pretty competitive.

it really depends on where you play and who you play with.

If you are like me and play super fluffy to the point of extremely handicapping yourself, then expect to lose a lot.

My store uses a lot of terminator only armies, knights, bane blades land raiders, etc.

if you come into this expecting to do well without sacrificing your fluff than your gonna lose a lot.

I'd give a hesitant 'maybe' if asked if 40k can be played casually and still be fun. If you have the right group absolutely, but it punishes players for taking units they like the look of over units that are 'good' more than any game out there at the moment. All it takes is one guy to build a fun army around something he likes the look of which accidentally turns out to be OP and it all falls appart.

There are plenty of other games out there that let you take what you want and as long as you're not at a national level tourney you should be fine.

I'd suggest looking around, reading some fluff and glancing at other game forums before deciding anything, and if you want casual wacky fun Dystopian Wars is my first suggestion. Who doesn't love 1860s battleships firing lasers at each other before being dragged to the depths of the ocean by a giant mechanical squid?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also infinity is considered the most balanced game out there and is a lot of fun. Once you understand the basics you have to actually try hard to come up with a list that will auto lose. Its all about how you play, not what you bring.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
it really depends on where you play and who you play with.

If you are like me and play super fluffy to the point of extremely handicapping yourself, then expect to lose a lot.

My store uses a lot of terminator only armies, knights, bane blades land raiders, etc.

if you come into this expecting to do well without sacrificing your fluff than your gonna lose a lot.

Well, it's less losing and more "getting absolutely crushed" Out of all the games I play, magic is currently the worst for that around my area, since I can only really play pick up games, and everyone seems to be running super competitive decks and I'm sitting there with a mono white life-gain deck..I just sort of...Not...want the same type of situation with something that's going to cost a few hundred bucks just to be able to even start playing. But, I suppose at least checking out the "find a game' board would be a good idea.

Again, it depends on your specific fluffy list and what it goes up against. There are definitely certain lists, even fluffy ones, that will easily and without effort crush certain other lists by, like, Turn 3.

Acheros wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
it really depends on where you play and who you play with.

If you are like me and play super fluffy to the point of extremely handicapping yourself, then expect to lose a lot.

My store uses a lot of terminator only armies, knights, bane blades land raiders, etc.

if you come into this expecting to do well without sacrificing your fluff than your gonna lose a lot.

Well, it's less losing and more "getting absolutely crushed" Out of all the games I play, magic is currently the worst for that around my area, since I can only really play pick up games, and everyone seems to be running super competitive decks and I'm sitting there with a mono white life-gain deck..I just sort of...Not...want the same type of situation with something that's going to cost a few hundred bucks just to be able to even start playing. But, I suppose at least checking out the "find a game' board would be a good idea.

As everyone's said it's really reliant on the people you're playing with (Magic is too).

That said, in general, going from Magic to 40k looking for better balance is like going from Team Fortress 2 to Pokemon in search of balance.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Totally depends on your local Meta.
Mine relies almost exclusively on pick up games, so for me, 40k doesn't really work. If you get a tight knit group with similar ideas of what makes a fun game, you're set.

This is the answer you're looking for really. Before you invest in an army, do some more research around where you live:

-is there a gaming store local to you?
-if there is, what information can you get from them? Ask them about the local gaming community, how experienced the players are, how many of them field more fluffy lists than simple killy ones, which different events they have on various days of the week (e.g taster sessions) etc
-you don't have to have a 40k game already set up in the near future to begin the hobby, why not just buy 500 points worth of models and spend time personalising it and perfecting its appearance ready for when you do find a game?

There are certainly a lot of people out there who like playing fluffy and fun lists quite regularly. The best way of finding any of them is talking to the guys in your nearest gaming store

Whatever you decide to do, make sure you have a conversation with your opponent before the game starts. Most people, sometimes especially the competetive types, are more than willing to dial-back their lists if they know up-front that you're looking for a more fluffy, narrative battle. I know very little about MtG, but I assume that this sort of approach might work for those games, too?

I think recent changes to the rules (Unbound, Lords of War, Super-heavies, Maelstrom, etc.) have made the pre-game discussion even more important than in the past.

So far what I noticed is a lot of people tend to be try hards, but you can still do VERY well with just fun armys, I for instance have yet to lose an eldar game and I roll with NO transports!

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
So far what I noticed is a lot of people tend to be try hards, but you can still do VERY well with just fun armys, I for instance have yet to lose an eldar game and I roll with NO transports!

So, you use the most powerful codex with very few bad choices and are surprised that you do well?
Try that with nids, Chaos or Orks.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
So far what I noticed is a lot of people tend to be try hards, but you can still do VERY well with just fun armys, I for instance have yet to lose an eldar game and I roll with NO transports!

So, you use the most powerful codex with very few bad choices and are surprised that you do well?
Try that with nids, Chaos or Orks.

So only 3 codexes can do bad then, alright good to know. Quite a lot of eldar troops I used were Meh, howling banshees got wrecked by the other dedicated melee I was fighting, fire dragons were not the best as they didnt bring any vehicles, swooping hawks guns suck, but the skyburst is pretty sweet, Rangers are pretty useless since terrible ap....

Don't bother. Announcing you play Eldar in any way is just asking for people to jump you as a powergamer. It's the new knee-jerk reaction. Even if you do not use the units most complained about, you will still be labelled "that guy". I recently once announced that I use a single Wave Serpent and a Falcon to transport units at the same speed as all my jetbike/Shining Spear units (I play a Saim Hann themed army) and I immediately got flak for being a player of an army "just because it's the latest power codex". Regardless of the fact that my army dates back to 3rd edition, when the Wave Serpent model I own is back from when Forgeworld first began selling them instead of everyone's homemade "spoon-turret" conversions of Falcons.

I explained it that way, and then some guy claimed "Oh, so you adopted Eldar for the skimmer-spam of 4th edition then, that's why."

I only play fun armies. Ever. Space Wolves 13th company from back in 3rd edition's Eye of Terror campaign, various armies from the Chapter Approved days (Kroot Mercs, Cursed Founding), etc.

Currently building a "Deathwing" army for friendly games using 4th edition rules, but using Blood Angels terminators from the Space Hulk 3rd Edition set to represent the Blood Angels 1st company of that era.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
So far what I noticed is a lot of people tend to be try hards, but you can still do VERY well with just fun armys, I for instance have yet to lose an eldar game and I roll with NO transports!

So, you use the most powerful codex with very few bad choices and are surprised that you do well?
Try that with nids, Chaos or Orks.

So only 3 codexes can do bad then, alright good to know. Quite a lot of eldar troops I used were Meh, howling banshees got wrecked by the other dedicated melee I was fighting, fire dragons were not the best as they didnt bring any vehicles, swooping hawks guns suck, but the skyburst is pretty sweet, Rangers are pretty useless since terrible ap....

Yeah but even the worse Eldar units are fairly comparable to a lot of armies mid tier units...Not a knock against Eldar players, just the fact that GW can't write rules for gak.

To the OP, the game can be just fine if you play in a meta that isn't very competitive and everyone is fairly laid back with list building and gaming. My FLGS is extremely laid back and I can bring almost any unit and expect it to be a decent game. If I want to play competitively I can go to another store not to far from me and play cut throat net list all I want, which rarely happens. Or I can go to the GW shop that is a bit of a drive for a bit of a crap shoot.

Point is this game more than anything is dependent on the people that you play with and they make a world of difference. Talk with your local players, watch them play a few games. If all you see is Wave Serpents, Necron Flyers, 2++ Rerollables, etc. Then you might not want to commit to 40k if you can't find other players.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Don't bother. Announcing you play Eldar in any way is just asking for people to jump you as a powergamer. It's the new knee-jerk reaction. Even if you do not use the units most complained about, you will still be labelled "that guy". I recently once announced that I use a single Wave Serpent and a Falcon to transport units at the same speed as all my jetbike/Shining Spear units (I play a Saim Hann themed army) and I immediately got flak for being a player of an army "just because it's the latest power codex". Regardless of the fact that my army dates back to 3rd edition, when the Wave Serpent model I own is back from when Forgeworld first began selling them instead of everyone's homemade "spoon-turret" conversions of Falcons.

I explained it that way, and then some guy claimed "Oh, so you adopted Eldar for the skimmer-spam of 4th edition then, that's why."

I only play fun armies. Ever. Space Wolves 13th company from back in 3rd edition's Eye of Terror campaign, various armies from the Chapter Approved days (Kroot Mercs, Cursed Founding), etc.

Currently building a "Deathwing" army for friendly games using 4th edition rules, but using Blood Angels terminators from the Space Hulk 3rd Edition set to represent the Blood Angels 1st company of that era.

Yeah I play Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau and Necrons, I just prefer the themes and fluff of both the eldars the most. But as long as you announce your army isnt powergamer and you dont want to face WAAC armys you should be fine

^^^ This kind of bickering is why I'd be very hesitant to tell anyone that 40k is a good game for people who just want to play casual, fun lists.

I did and I grew to hate it after wasting a couple of thousand dollars.

If you have a group of like minded people and stay only within that group it is a wonderful setting with a lot of potential, but I'd be sure that you do have one of those groups to play with before buying anything.

As long as you're playing with friends then you can all play fun armies and have a great time. Playing with friends is much better than playing pick-up games anyway! Great banter and probably pizza are two essential parts of enjoying the hobby.

I thought bickering was a normal part of 40k now. Its what I've seen people doing since the 6th edition.

Anyway, 40k is as good as you and the people you are playing with decide to make it.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
I thought bickering was a normal part of 40k now. Its what I've seen people doing since the 6th edition.

Anyway, 40k is as good as you and the people you are playing with decide to make it.

(except the rules, they're as poor as GW decided to write them)

but The Imp is right. You're only gonna have a fun themey game if your opponent enjoys that too. 40k is FULL of min/maxers (and that's fine, I'm not saying that's a bad way to play if that's what you enjoy) but it is an exercise in frustration to play against a min/maxer with a themed army in 40k.

Warhammer Fantasy is better for this, as most every unit has their use, but in the end, I'd recommend Malifaux for something where you can build completely themed gangs and still you'll be almost as competitive as the min/maxers.

I will be blunt: don't bother! Sadly (I loved 40K), the game is too high risk-low reward to get into. The only way to make it work is with the help of a group of like-minded friends. I am part of such group and yet most of us migrated to Warmahordes when 7th edition struck. Although I completely got rid of my armies, I still feel tempted to start CSM, but I know that I would be disappointed , so I stay put. Yes, most of the models are fantastic and fun to work with. Yes, the most of the fluff is still good, but this is pretty much it- there is not much of a game to be found here. A shame, really. 40K could be fantastic, if it were in the right hands... I wouldn't even recommend it for a casual game, because its lines are quite blurred.

I'm going to say no. I say this as someone who, four times in the past year, has thought of getting back into 40k only to have the realization that I'd have to play things I don't want or basically lose every game because the army idea I had would just be terrible on the tabletop because the game is an unbalanced mess.

This most recent time I wanted to do an all Space Marine Terminator army, which are supposed to be the elite of the elite. It would be complete garbage in games, nearly impossible to win with. If an army was dirt cheap then maybe that wouldn't matter but 40k armies are anything but, so why spend hundreds of dollars and have an army that's impossible to win with? I asked on three or four different forums just to get different ideas if an all Terminator army would win, and everyone basically gave me the same advice: An all Terminator army would be cool, fluffy and impossible to win with. So that idea is down the drain because why bother? Losing every game you play, especially when it's not your fault but what you want to play, is just going to sour anyone on any game.

There are some metas that focus on campaigns and actual narrative games and don't really play competitive, but even in casual games there is imbalance because of how the 40k rules work. Some armies can be fluffy and still really good (Nurgle armies spring to mind) while others can be fluffy and terrible (the aforementioned all-Terminator army). If those two players play a game, even if it's a friendly campaign game with a story and missions, the person playing the "bad" army is at a disadvantage right out of the gate for no other reason than the units they like are weak and GW doesn't give a feth about balance.

Absolutely yes. 40k is in my opinion best when played with your sort of attitude. The trick is finding people who match your take on the game.

 Las wrote:
Absolutely yes. 40k is in my opinion best when played with your sort of attitude. The trick is finding people who match your take on the game.

I can't agree with this. Even if you find people who match a fun take on the game, there's such a vast disparity in balance/playability between fun forces that it's easy for the OP to like an army that is ultimately useless and for an opponent to have a fluffy/fun army that happens to be on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I can't believe that no one has asked this yet, but no one has asked what a fun army is for him.

what army are you going to play op and what units do you find fun?


Depending on what army you play and what you are going to do with it is pivotal to your enjoyment. You can still be fluffly and effective, it just depends on your fluff and what units you choose to use.

Simple: Yes

Complicated: Expect to lose. I still enjoy fluffy armies and only build themed/fluffy forces. Then again, I've loved the 40k fluff for years, and only recently began playing the actual tabletop game. So maybe for ones such as yourselves, who don't have much fluff experience with 40k, it might not be as fun.

I have a twin brother to play 40k with and we see eye to eye, so 40k could work for us, but we still play Warmachine and Infinity because it doesn't take us several hours to get a game in.
Wayne the Game is right, even with "fluffy" lists, the power levels will still very highly. A fluffy Eldar list will still most likely roll over that fluffy Chaos list.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I have a twin brother to play 40k with and we see eye to eye, so 40k could work for us, but we still play Warmachine and Infinity because it doesn't take us several hours to get a game in.
Wayne the Game is right, even with "fluffy" lists, the power levels will still very highly. A fluffy Eldar list will still most likely roll over that fluffy Chaos list.

Yes. I once again had to shelve the idea of playing 40k because I wanted an all Terminator army using Codex: Space Marines. Fluffy but I would lose every game. So why spend $300 on the "Strike Force Ultra" box if I can't win because the elite warriors of the most elite fighting force in the universe are garbage within the rules of the game?