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I just want the Lhamean to be worth taking...]

Well, no, that's not true. I also want a model for Malys so we can keep her in the book, but since that's at about the same probability as a sudden wave of plastic Sisters....

 scottmmmm wrote:
The court is pretty awful as it stands. Forcing you to take at least one of each of them just writes them off for me - which is a shame as I really like the models.

0+ of each would fix this. It would be cool to stick the Archon in a venom with a few Sslyth.

Well, 0+ wouldn't really address the central issue - that most of the court is crap.

Better than nothing though.

So with all the IC removals does everybody think they will add relics and wargear to acomplish the same thing on regular Archons?
For instance the DS and Combat drugs from Duke.
Or the Heart fro m Malys.

The most likely outcome is the same outcome everyone else (bar GK) has gotten:

Any unit/character that lacks a model will be removed. No exceptions.

The special rules that the removed characters once granted your amry will be placed on the new Warlord table, and you'll just have to hope you roll well enough to get the one you built your army around.

No re-sculpts of existing plastic models.

A tiny handful of new plastic models for new units that have never been mentioned in the fluff before. Some may actually look good. Most will not.

Only some of those new units will actually be useful.

Points re-worked on existing units in a haphazard way. Some units will get a points increase and deserve it. Others will get a points increase when they needed a points decrease. Some units will get a points decrease for no explicable reason, but will suddenly be cheap enough to justify using them.

One of your few remaining characters will be made into a LoW.

 CShaffer wrote:
So with all the IC removals does everybody think they will add relics and wargear to acomplish the same thing on regular Archons?

It's possible, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Most likely such relics will be:
a) Hilariously overpriced
b) Miss the point of the SC
c) Both of the above

e.g. "Now, for a mere 40pts, you can buy Lady Malys' defining feature - her sword!"

Am I overly cynical?

squidhills wrote:
The most likely outcome is the same outcome everyone else (bar GK) has gotten:

Any unit/character that lacks a model will be removed. No exceptions.

The special rules that the removed characters once granted your amry will be placed on the new Warlord table, and you'll just have to hope you roll well enough to get the one you built your army around.

No re-sculpts of existing plastic models.

A tiny handful of new plastic models for new units that have never been mentioned in the fluff before. Some may actually look good. Most will not.

Only some of those new units will actually be useful.

Points re-worked on existing units in a haphazard way. Some units will get a points increase and deserve it. Others will get a points increase when they needed a points decrease. Some units will get a points decrease for no explicable reason, but will suddenly be cheap enough to justify using them.

One of your few remaining characters will be made into a LoW.

Pretty new to the hobby and I'm starting to get a resentment for the amount of IC SM have. Is that normal? lol

 CShaffer wrote:

Pretty new to the hobby and I'm starting to get a resentment for the amount of IC SM have. Is that normal? lol

I felt the same when they took a ton of IG characters away.

It's very frustrating when SM's get to keep an entire book's worth of SCs in a already-bloated codex, whilst those of other races are whittled to just a handful.

I wouldn't mind it if they added in new characters with new rules and new models to replace the ones with no models (Commorragh is a dangerous place for those at the top). However, the way codexes have been annoys me. How hard is it to create a dozen or so ICs to make an army feel more interesting. Even if some are only situationally useful, people will like it and try to play even the bad ones.

 vipoid wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:

Pretty new to the hobby and I'm starting to get a resentment for the amount of IC SM have. Is that normal? lol

I felt the same when they took a ton of IG characters away.

It's very frustrating when SM's get to keep an entire book's worth of SCs in a already-bloated codex, whilst those of other races are whittled to just a handful.

In reality, its really just Space Wolves that have an overabundance of SCs. Remember, the Codex:SM characters aren't all for the same army. UltraSmurfs have 4 ICs and 2 upgrades, Templars have 2 or 3, while all the others chapters have 1 or less. Dark Angels have five I think. Orks got the shaft, they really should have more SCs, but they did gain a new one with Grukk, but then, so did the Space Wolves, bringing their total even higher.

The older the army is, the more character models there are, so naturally they will have more SCs. Eldar have 7 I think, Blood Angels will likely keep their existing characters. I have a feeling that IG characters will eventually come back in the form of supplements.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:

Pretty new to the hobby and I'm starting to get a resentment for the amount of IC SM have. Is that normal? lol

I felt the same when they took a ton of IG characters away.

It's very frustrating when SM's get to keep an entire book's worth of SCs in a already-bloated codex, whilst those of other races are whittled to just a handful.

In reality, its really just Space Wolves that have an overabundance of SCs. Remember, the Codex:SM characters aren't all for the same army. UltraSmurfs have 4 ICs and 2 upgrades, Templars have 2 or 3, while all the others chapters have 1 or less. Dark Angels have five I think. Orks got the shaft, they really should have more SCs, but they did gain a new one with Grukk, but then, so did the Space Wolves, bringing their total even higher.

The older the army is, the more character models there are, so naturally they will have more SCs. Eldar have 7 I think, Blood Angels will likely keep their existing characters. I have a feeling that IG characters will eventually come back in the form of supplements.

I don't see why they have to remove the IC if it does not have a model, is it a money thing?
The more options the better I would think!

Eldar have 9, but thats because of the pheonix lords and avatar, whic are all non-removable. Eldrad is a must-include and Yriel has been a huge favorite for a long time. Nightspear didnt need to be added with the rules they gave him. He may take the cake for the worst IC after the mandrake IC is removed.

They remove them because they got burned when they had a bunch of units with no model and other companies build models for them. GW sued that they owned the copywrite and lost since no model existed for the unit. Now the higher-ups feel they must have a model for the unit. Instead of doing the easy thing and creating the models, they remove them from the codex.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Remember, the Codex:SM characters aren't all for the same army.

Yes, they are.

Whatever their faction, they're still SM characters.

I don't see how it's any different from the DE kabals or the regiments of the IG.

 CShaffer wrote:
I don't see how they can drop so many IC from the rosters. Does not leave many options.
For instance Baron and Duke are HUGE for a lot of builds.

They could give the webway portals back and hilarity would ensue, however overwatch is and will be a problem.

And GW routinely drops codexes that completely invalidate a number of popular builds.

I fully expect baron to either be gone or have rules that make those builds not work.

The duke is a jack of all trades cheap special character who might exist in the future but again if his rules change he it could invalidate a lot of builds


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Webway Portal will almost assuredly be a relic, just like the portalglyph.

I expect the Baron, the Duke, and at least Malys to be dropped (sadly), and maybe Khadrukh. That leaves Vecht (who will probably become a LoW), Urien, Drahzar and Lelith in addition to the base Archon, Succubus and Haemonculus Ancient. I also expect Haemonculi to be turned into a 1-4 non-compulsory HQ unit ala Tech-Marines and Commissars.

The Orks have only four special character HQ's, including Gazzy, so Deldar getting cut down to just the four mentioned above matches the 7th edition status quo.

perhaps regular Haemonculi being cut down to tech marines and Haemi ancients getting somethign of a buff to separate them from regular haemis.

I expect Reavers will take a hit, and that's not entirely me just wishlisting. I feel their Blade Veins need a tad tweak.

Sorry people, the Venom will be changing. Either slightly more expensive, or something along those lines. It will happen.

I dunno what, but do something to Mandrakes. I don't play DE, but the models are so awesome that I feel they need to do something awesome as well.

Unrelated from what anybody has said.
I would pay additional money for suppliments if they have a coven/cult/kabal books.
I think that would add some interesting options as long as they did not skimp on the main codex.

I wouldn't be surprised if the raider got a slight points increase while the venom got a slight points decrease.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the raider got a slight points increase while the venom got a slight points decrease.

make the seldom take one more expensive and the constantly spammed one less expensive?

sounds like GW


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:


I dunno what, but do something to Mandrakes. I don't play DE, but the models are so awesome that I feel they need to do something awesome as well.

We were expecting it in 5th because they sucked in 3rd edition too.

It is possible they get buffed or changed into something useful. About as likely as they get buffed or changed into an awesome OP god unit.

My bet is either no change or modest change that still leaves them being useless.

 Exergy wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the raider got a slight points increase while the venom got a slight points decrease.

make the seldom take one more expensive and the constantly spammed one less expensive?

sounds like GW


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:


I dunno what, but do something to Mandrakes. I don't play DE, but the models are so awesome that I feel they need to do something awesome as well.

We were expecting it in 5th because they sucked in 3rd edition too.

It is possible they get buffed or changed into something useful. About as likely as they get buffed or changed into an awesome OP god unit.

My bet is either no change or modest change that still leaves them being useless.

Because GW wants to sell more models, my guess is that Mandrakes will get a serious buff in the upcoming codex. Maybe not making them great, but enough to make people buy them.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

More poison options for Archons. How dumb is it that the Agonizer isnt poison? the Lhamaean ability is essentially useless unless you wanna give him a Venom Blade...but why ever do that?

Well, you might want to give him a Venom Blade to keep him cheap... or because his other weapon choices are laughable. Yey, AP3 Agoniser, now I can maybe kill some marines in combat or inflict a wound or two to a MC... or I could just do the same at range with poison shooting.

Regardless, a Lhamaean still won't do anything because she upgrades poison weapons to 2+, and Venom Blades are already 2+.

 Jancoran wrote:

I just KNOW they will make the Splinter Cannons into Salvo Weapons. Which sucks HARD. But I am willing to bet on it.

Because what splinter cannons really need is even less reason to take them on infantry.

You're probably right though.

That was my point: the venom Blade ALREADY does what the Lhamaean does so the literally only thing that changes or is changed by her is the stupid pistol.

The Reason you took her was because if you had a husk blade, but simply had no feasible way to wound a tough target, you could then chose to attack with your splinter pistol (that counts as a CCW) which would then count as poison 2+.
Not saying it justifies paying for a whole court, but still.

Huskblade isnt poison. Actually.


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 vipoid wrote:

 scottmmmm wrote:
The court is pretty awful as it stands. Forcing you to take at least one of each of them just writes them off for me - which is a shame as I really like the models.

0+ of each would fix this. It would be cool to stick the Archon in a venom with a few Sslyth.

Well, 0+ wouldn't really address the central issue - that most of the court is crap.

Better than nothing though.

Ive been winning consistentrly with the court. So I dont know bout that.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

More poison options for Archons. How dumb is it that the Agonizer isnt poison? the Lhamaean ability is essentially useless unless you wanna give him a Venom Blade...but why ever do that?

Well, you might want to give him a Venom Blade to keep him cheap... or because his other weapon choices are laughable. Yey, AP3 Agoniser, now I can maybe kill some marines in combat or inflict a wound or two to a MC... or I could just do the same at range with poison shooting.

Regardless, a Lhamaean still won't do anything because she upgrades poison weapons to 2+, and Venom Blades are already 2+.

 Jancoran wrote:

I just KNOW they will make the Splinter Cannons into Salvo Weapons. Which sucks HARD. But I am willing to bet on it.

Because what splinter cannons really need is even less reason to take them on infantry.

You're probably right though.

That was my point: the venom Blade ALREADY does what the Lhamaean does so the literally only thing that changes or is changed by her is the stupid pistol.

The Reason you took her was because if you had a husk blade, but simply had no feasible way to wound a tough target, you could then chose to attack with your splinter pistol (that counts as a CCW) which would then count as poison 2+.
Not saying it justifies paying for a whole court, but still.

Huskblade isnt poison. Actually.

That's what he said, he said for situations where your Huskblade can't wound (S3 Archon) you use a poison weapon instead. Unfortunately, the Splinter Pistol has the poison rule under its shooting profile, so when used as a CCW it isn't poison. This is why I take VenomBlades on my Archons next to the Huskblade.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 scottmmmm wrote:
The court is pretty awful as it stands. Forcing you to take at least one of each of them just writes them off for me - which is a shame as I really like the models.

0+ of each would fix this. It would be cool to stick the Archon in a venom with a few Sslyth.

Well, 0+ wouldn't really address the central issue - that most of the court is crap.

Better than nothing though.

Ive been winning consistentrly with the court. So I dont know bout that.

You have also have described yourself as a casual gamer who plays which models look cool. If balance doesn't matter to you thats fine, it doesn't make the court any less than the second crappiest option we have in the dex next to Mandrakes because of an anecdotal account of it, in a meta where cool looking models get chosen over sensibly balanced ones nonetheless. However feel free to share your list and explain how it isn't a trashy unit if you actually want to back this statement up with any supporting evidence or logic at all.

Lol. YOU think Im casual. And Im fine with it.

Its on the blog. Scope it out. Its a perfect fit as my third hammer in a melee oriented list. Those Medusae flamers are something fierce, either due to AP or due to str and it is 50/50 which one it will be but then, you have two of them. So a port in any storm. The 31 STR 5 attacks on the charge? Doesnt suck. Add Pain Tokens? Added win.

Like all Dark eldar, you take a dose of mortality with your does of lethality. You go in kinda knowing it'll be a bumpy ride in. But then its your third most important hammer so it doesnt get the same level of attention the Grotesques get. and if you DO focus on the Court well...Al lthe better for Uiren and his buddies I guess. Bullets arent unlimited except in Rambo movies. =)

Their success is why I have an avid interest in what happens to them. Sslyth in particular are fantastic. Ive gotten serious mileage out of them.

 Jancoran wrote:
Lol. YOU think Im casual. And Im fine with it.

Its on the blog. Scope it out. Its a perfect fit as my third hammer in a melee oriented list. Those Medusae flamers are something fierce, either due to AP or due to str and it is 50/50 which one it will be but then, you have two of them. So a port in any storm. The 31 STR 5 attacks on the charge? Doesnt suck. Add Pain Tokens? Added win.

Like all Dark eldar, you take a dose of mortality with your does of lethality. You go in kinda knowing it'll be a bumpy ride in. But then its your third most important hammer so it doesnt get the same level of attention the Grotesques get. and if you DO focus on the Court well...Al lthe better for Uiren and his buddies I guess. Bullets arent unlimited except in Rambo movies. =)

Their success is why I have an avid interest in what happens to them. Sslyth in particular are fantastic. Ive gotten serious mileage out of them.

You win the majority of your games with melee? Sorry, sounds like you're playing in a very casual meta, no offense.

I only called you a casual player as you described yourself as someone who picks models that look cool over models with good rules. Whatever your definition is, for the rest of us that is a casual player and a casual environment.

 Zewrath wrote:

You win the majority of your games with melee? Sorry, sounds like you're playing in a very casual meta, no offense.

I was thinking the same.

 Jancoran wrote:


Its on the blog. Scope it out. Its a perfect fit as my third hammer in a melee oriented list. Those Medusae flamers are something fierce, either due to AP or due to str and it is 50/50 which one it will be but then, you have two of them. So a port in any storm.

I'm a bit confused - are we going for melee or ranged here? I ask because flaming a squad with 2 Medusae seems like a good way to fail your charge.

 Jancoran wrote:
The 31 STR 5 attacks on the charge? Doesnt suck.

I'm sure they don't. However, those 5+ armour saves, they suck. And, those transports that die to a stiff breeze, they suck too.

I guess I'm curious about how you're actually getting to combat. I mean, if you have something resembling a death-star which is flying a paper aeroplane... well guess what I'm aiming at.

And, once you're on foot, I promise that squad of yours will not survive long.

 Jancoran wrote:
Add Pain Tokens? Added win.

Ok, I'm really curious as to what this unit of yours comprises.

 Jancoran wrote:
and if you DO focus on the Court well...Al lthe better for Uiren and his buddies I guess. Bullets arent unlimited except in Rambo movies. =)

Hard as this may be to accept, my armies have enough firepower to take down multiple squads/vehicles in a single turn - especially when the vehicles in question are AV10 open-topped.

The thing is, once your vehicles are dead, you lack both speed and survivability.

Maybe it's just the armies I play (or the way I play them), but T5 infantry with FNP really isn't much of a problem.

 Zewrath wrote:


You win the majority of your games with melee? Sorry, sounds like you're playing in a very casual meta, no offense.

I believe him. The Dark Eldar players around here murder things in melee.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Lol. YOU think Im casual. And Im fine with it.

Its on the blog. Scope it out. Its a perfect fit as my third hammer in a melee oriented list. Those Medusae flamers are something fierce, either due to AP or due to str and it is 50/50 which one it will be but then, you have two of them. So a port in any storm. The 31 STR 5 attacks on the charge? Doesnt suck. Add Pain Tokens? Added win.

Like all Dark eldar, you take a dose of mortality with your does of lethality. You go in kinda knowing it'll be a bumpy ride in. But then its your third most important hammer so it doesnt get the same level of attention the Grotesques get. and if you DO focus on the Court well...Al lthe better for Uiren and his buddies I guess. Bullets arent unlimited except in Rambo movies. =)

Their success is why I have an avid interest in what happens to them. Sslyth in particular are fantastic. Ive gotten serious mileage out of them.

You win the majority of your games with melee? Sorry, sounds like you're playing in a very casual meta, no offense.

Play me. then there wont be a need for offense. =) VASSAL perhaps, this Sunday?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:


You win the majority of your games with melee? Sorry, sounds like you're playing in a very casual meta, no offense.

I believe him. The Dark Eldar players around here murder things in melee.

Here is the blog entry I referenced so you can see it. I have modified it slightly over the course of games to be better yet.

BTW, i also use a melee oriented Chaos Night Lord army that does extreemly well. Melee is not as weak as some would have you beleive though I will admit that it DOEs require a certain amount of care in deployment and it took me longer to go from my Tau mentality to "smash you in the face" mentality. I have been a Tau player since I started, but I was able to make the switch mentally.

Yeah, sorry... I'm simply not buying it. Your list on your entry won't win versus any decent IG, Tau, Eldar list I know of, and I'm not even talking about ultra competitive lists here.
I like your blog and I'm glad you enjoy playing your DE with funny lists, but I remained unconvinced.

It already has. So you dont have to buy anything.

Then it was decent IG played by a crappy player. Although your definition of decent IG is probably different to most peoples, as your definition of decent Dark Eldar definitely is.

You have a court, you have 4 Clawed Fiends in your Beastpack with no Khymera ablatives, you have an archon that will only ever make it to combat against a potato who thinks popping the Venoms with wracks inside is a higher priority target, and after all that, other than the beastpack and Grots in CC, you have 2 units even CAPABLE of hurting a tank, and these two units are sitting in AV10 open top transports and shooting at 18" range. And expecting that beastpack to make it to CC is not something I expect. The Grots maybe.

I don't think the list is bottom class zero cohesion terrible, but it is trying to do 2 polar opposite things at once. And it also includes a court. My number one suggestion would be dropping the expensive models and picking up more AT, or dropping the wrackspam and focusing on pushing more Grots and Achons across the field for massive board control and to help secure that some big CC bad guys area going to make it there. Otherwise they will consistently enough just get knocked out as priority targets, leaving them to walk across the field or just die, leaving you with a bunch of wracks and whatever they deemed less threatening out of the beastpack, Grots, and the Blasterborn.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Then it was decent IG played by a crappy player. Although your definition of decent IG is probably different to most peoples, as your definition of decent Dark Eldar definitely is.

You have a court, you have 4 Clawed Fiends in your Beastpack with no Khymera ablatives, you have an archon that will only ever make it to combat against a potato who thinks popping the Venoms with wracks inside is a higher priority target, and after all that, other than the beastpack and Grots in CC, you have 2 units even CAPABLE of hurting a tank, and these two units are sitting in AV10 open top transports and shooting at 18" range. And expecting that beastpack to make it to CC is not something I expect. The Grots maybe.

I don't think the list is bottom class zero cohesion terrible, but it is trying to do 2 polar opposite things at once. And it also includes a court. My number one suggestion would be dropping the expensive models and picking up more AT, or dropping the wrackspam and focusing on pushing more Grots and Achons across the field for massive board control and to help secure that some big CC bad guys area going to make it there. Otherwise they will consistently enough just get knocked out as priority targets, leaving them to walk across the field or just die, leaving you with a bunch of wracks and whatever they deemed less threatening out of the beastpack, Grots, and the Blasterborn.

You're not reading the tactica I provided in depth (and its pretty lengthy). I already know they will try to kill the Raiders. I already know and concede most of the Raiders will perish after the 4+ and 3+ (Night Fight?) jinks eventually fail and all three Hull Points are gone. You are acting as if this is news to me and/or are acting like i think my opponent is dumb and wont try this. What choice does he have? He has to or its going to be a short game! I explicitly tell you I know this in my blog. So my question is: what was your point, since I already told you it would happen?

You're DEFINITELY missing the anti tank elements here. Almost every unit has anti-tank ability. Medusae Flamers, Archon Blaster pistol in the Beastpack (and the Clawed Fiends can tear a vehicle hull apart), Grotesques STR 7 on the charge, the Court of the Archons 31 STR 5 atttacks in melee' the Blaster born with Haywire grenades if you pop their transports... Anti tank is NEVER a problem. Flyers? they are a little more annoying Ill admit. Storm talons in particular are pretty cool. If I was going to talk about a weakness in the list, I'd say anti-air and you didn't even mention it.

New codex is coming out so all of this will be out the window come the 27th or so. We shall see what happens then.