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 whembly wrote:


Maybe ya'll can change my mind, but what's wrong with the mission being:
"The total destruction of our enemies and all who support them.”

If you don’t want a war to drag on, that’s probably the best way to do it...

Right?

Its kind of hard to do that when your enemy and those that support them comprise about a 5th of the world's population.

PhantomViper wrote:

 whembly wrote:


Maybe ya'll can change my mind, but what's wrong with the mission being:
"The total destruction of our enemies and all who support them.”

If you don’t want a war to drag on, that’s probably the best way to do it...

Right?

Its kind of hard to do that when your enemy and those that support them comprise about a 5th of the world's population.

Start with ISIS controlled territory. Go Conan-mode.

IF we don't go "curb-stomping" mode... then, why bother?

To that I ask...why bother?

it would be good if we could cite one instance where US involvement in North Africa and the ME turned out well.

 Frazzled wrote:
To that I ask...why bother?

it would be good if we could cite one instance where US involvement in North Africa and the ME turned out well.

That's why *I* asked earlier, being lazy, has ANY of the powers in the ME requested US' assistance.

They have...

If we what to be participant in the international community, then we'd have to consider it. I only asked that it's on "our terms" and that the mission is "very clear" on the onset.

The President is preparing a draft AUMF against ISIL to send to Congress for approval.

 whembly wrote:

Start with ISIS controlled territory. Go Conan-mode.

IF we don't go "curb-stomping" mode... then, why bother?

I agree with Frazzled on this "why bother" seems to be the only appropriate response that doesn't generate even more ill will towards the west in the region.

 Ouze wrote:
The President is preparing a draft AUMF against ISIL to send to Congress for approval.

I still don't know what it's truly meant by banning “enduring offensive combat operations”. Sounds too much like legal mumbo-jumbo.

Either fight a war to victory as robustly as possible, or don’t do it at all.

When dealing the lives and costs of our Armed Forces... we shouldn't go "half-assed" at this.

I still think this is a job for the surrounding nations to sort out.

If Obama and co are determined that America has to go full world police then they should make sure they aren't having their armed forces hands tied behind their back when fighting a ruthless enemy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQaH3-LK54

 Frazzled wrote:
To that I ask...why bother?

it would be good if we could cite one instance where US involvement in North Africa and the ME turned out well.

Gulf Storm I led by Stormin' Norman?

 Easy E wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
To that I ask...why bother?

it would be good if we could cite one instance where US involvement in North Africa and the ME turned out well.

Gulf Storm I led by Stormin' Norman?

How did that work out?

dictator in power
2 embassies blown up. Thousands injured.
ship bombed.
9/11

Next.

Lebanon - bad (thats back inthe 80s for you youngins)
Afghan 1 - The Rambo years: bad
Iraq 1 Operation moustache: bad
Somalia-bad
Iraq II-bad
Afghanistan-bad
Libya-bad

 Frazzled wrote:


How did that work out?

dictator in power

Again... "The enemy I know is preferable to the enemy I don't"

Sure, Intel had some idea of who was around that could make a power play in the vacuum left by Saddam, had he been removed in 91-92, but I think that the mud was still a bit unclear and so we KNEW who Saddam was, and we KNEW what he was doing. We didn't know if the person that came behind him would be better or worse, and that wasn't a risk that Bush Sr. was willing to take.

Turns out we should have just left him completely alone.

 Ouze wrote:
The President is preparing a draft AUMF against ISIL to send to Congress for approval.

You mean we finally went over the 90 days?

It is difficult to fight ISIL because of the religion ideology. It won't go away....and I'm afraid that it is just a matter of time before they get a WMD or suitcase Nuke and poof New York or some important city.

I think the only way to destroyed this threat permanently is to "lead by example" type. Other "good" muslim must take the stage and convince the "bad" muslim of their error. We keep hearing that only about 1% of Muslim are jihadis and 5% support them... we'll what the freaking other 90% good muslim doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad muslim on the head.

There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.


Also, It has always been Al-Qaeda end game to create ISIL and a Islam Nation and ultimately a Islam World. They have been wanting USA to do the dirty job for them to bring down nation like Iraq and look for opportunity of cilvil war like Syria. It was a perfect time for ISIL to rise from the ashes of Syria and Iraq. Perfect Storm. AQ even appointed a Caliphate and claim that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is related to the Prophet Muhammad. So Abu B. is the right Caliphate.

AQ or ISIL plans has reached it's goal. It seems that .... if 911 was the catalyst for USA to take out nations for AQ to sets it's plans in motion. I feel that AQ has been pulling all the strings and USA an it's allies are falling for it.

Once they have Abu B. as Caliphate... muslim fanatics and even "normal" muslim, really see this as the coming of Christ. I can't point enough how important a figure of a Caliphate is to the Muslim who belief in this.The last Caliphate was over 100 years ago. This is why muslim from all over the world are flocking to the ISIL Black Flag.

This is my theory now.
ISIL world domination goals will start with Iraq and Syria. It's goal is not to win. The goal is to create this as a battle ground and create a more followers world wide. The result is more terrorist cells will form in the world and Believers of the Caliphate and the ISIL goals will donate money or join the fight locally or cause terror activity or travel to the battle ground. ISIL knows that they can not win the war in Iraq and Syria and they do not want to. Not yet. They need to recruit and they need to keep the war going forever until this ideology of World Islam catch on in USA and so on. ISIL wants USA to come and fight them. They are pulling all the strings and we are falling for it again.

I think we need to kill Abu B. (the Caliphate) and made it look NOT like an assassination. Like we bomb a building and he was it in too. When the Caliphate is dead, less jihadis or donation will come because their "2nd coming" is dead or he was a "false" Caliphate. No doubt that Al-Quadia or ISIL will appointed a new Caliphate and created BS propaganda like he was another guy related to the Prophet Muhammad. NO doubt that many of ISIL members and all of ISIL supporters will fracture and have infighting of selecting who the next Caliphate is. This infighting is what we need. For the first time in AQ and terrorist history, they have a head snake and we can cut it off to really hurt them. This snake head is what the jihadist from all over the world are following him and coming to fight and die for him.

Surrounding nations aren't really going to do anything

Both Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been aiding ISIS topple Assad's regime as to both countries Assad was an enemy

But it's also twofold the ISIS situation is more or less dealing with turkey's Kurdish problem killing and weakening them

The Saudi's have funded a Sunni army which can be used to fight off Iranian influence in the region and more or less take care of the undesirables around the region (ethnic/religious minorities) plus kill Shiites

Funnily enough Iran which only a couple of decades ago and within recent memory fought a long and horrific war with Iraq and is now currently really the only nation helping Iraq dealing with this problem.

America seems to be thawing some of the ice between themselves and Iran looking at possible co-operation tackling ISIS but Israel is insistent on demonizing the Iranians and trying to convince the US to attack them instead

david choe wrote:


There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.

Oh really?

In case you didn't hear, there's a new holy war going on in africa, christians are also over there killing kids for being witches. America still has it's share of extremist christians, the klan, the wbc, pro lifers, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

So what the freaking other 90% good christians doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad christians on the head.

So get to it, go stop your fellow christians from killing non christians, lead by example.

sirlynchmob wrote:

david choe wrote:


There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.

Oh really?

In case you didn't hear, there's a new holy war going on in africa, christians are also over there killing kids for being witches. America still has it's share of extremist christians, the klan, the wbc, pro lifers, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

So what the freaking other 90% good christians doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad christians on the head.

So get to it, go stop your fellow christians from killing non christians, lead by example.

When did the POPE declare another crusade in the past 500 years? Learn to understand what the word Crusade is, not what Christian who kills.

When Christian mob like in your Africa example kills, it is a mob rule and not the POPE who sanctioned the murdering. Are the other Christians of the world doing something about it? This is not a religion problem. We know that those African Christian are killing because of MOB rule and the country is in Anarchy. These Christian are opportunist and taking advantage of the minority muslim. They are just bad people who choose religion as a justification. Other Christian of the world can't help them in preaching to them. They know that what they are doing is wrong, they just want to loot and steel and kill. This is a military issue and need to be done with military.

ISIL is a dark cloud of "bad" Islam. This "bad" Islam need to be corrected by the majority of muslim who disagree with their version of "bad" Islam. The way to combat this is by education and speaking out. They need to stop the "indecisive" Muslim who are not sure which version of Islam to follow. Once all the indecisive Muslim have choose to follow the correct teaching of Islam, then this "bad" Islam will go away.

I'll give you example of Violence religion that has human sacrifice, the Aztec mythology. Nobody following that brutal religion anymore. I'm sure some still do some where, but that mythology is dead and human sacrifice is no longer practiced. They were converted to Catholicism or many just see that killing slaves or prisoner were stupid and doesn't make harvest better.

ISIL has a Caliphate. He is their POPE. This evil Caliphate is declare a holy war to the world and all none Muslim is the enemy. All none Muslim are infidel. It is ok to kill the infidel. I understand my enemy is ISIL and I understand it's objective and goals. I do not let any propaganda from the media to detract or clouded my judgment.

sirlynchmob wrote:

david choe wrote:


There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.

Oh really?

In case you didn't hear, there's a new holy war going on in africa, christians are also over there killing kids for being witches. America still has it's share of extremist christians, the klan, the wbc, pro lifers, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

So what the freaking other 90% good christians doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad christians on the head.

So get to it, go stop your fellow christians from killing non christians, lead by example.

Ask and you shall receive:

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20570

The Catholic Church, on her part, in condemning every form of violence perpetrated in the name of religious belief, will not cease in her commitment to peace and reconciliation, through interreligious dialogue and the many charitable works which provide daily assistance and comfort to the suffering throughout the world.

http://www.newsweek.com/pope-condemns-violence-persecution-iraq-and-syria-christmas-message-294751

The Pope asked for peace to be bestowed upon the Middle East and for dialogue to open up between Israelis and Palestinians. He called for suffering to be alleviated in Ukraine and for peace and fraternal existence to likewise reach Nigeria and other parts of Africa, including Libya, South Sudan, the Central African Republic, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

sirlynchmob wrote:

david choe wrote:


There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.

Oh really?

In case you didn't hear, there's a new holy war going on in africa, christians are also over there killing kids for being witches. America still has it's share of extremist christians, the klan, the wbc, pro lifers, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

So what the freaking other 90% good christians doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad christians on the head.

So get to it, go stop your fellow christians from killing non christians, lead by example.

You just said pro lifers are extremist. Thats a nonsensical statement. Seriously go rant somewhere else with your hate.

The Klan is dead.
WBC consists of what 1 extended family?

david choe wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

david choe wrote:


There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.

Oh really?

In case you didn't hear, there's a new holy war going on in africa, christians are also over there killing kids for being witches. America still has it's share of extremist christians, the klan, the wbc, pro lifers, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

So what the freaking other 90% good christians doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad christians on the head.

So get to it, go stop your fellow christians from killing non christians, lead by example.

When did the POPE declare another crusade in the past 500 years? Learn to understand what the word Crusade is, not what Christian who kills.

So your plan is to ignore the extremists in your group and not even address them?

crusader: a person who campaigns vigorously for political, social, or religious change; a campaigner.
So those extremists are christian crusaders. Your solution, ignore them.

I like this new pope, he's a good guy. At least 1 christian is trying to do something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

david choe wrote:


There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.

Oh really?

In case you didn't hear, there's a new holy war going on in africa, christians are also over there killing kids for being witches. America still has it's share of extremist christians, the klan, the wbc, pro lifers, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

So what the freaking other 90% good christians doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad christians on the head.

So get to it, go stop your fellow christians from killing non christians, lead by example.

You just said pro lifers are extremist. Thats a nonsensical statement. Seriously go rant somewhere else with your hate.

The Klan is dead.
WBC consists of what 1 extended family?

the klan is dead? maybe someone should tell them that.
pro lifers are extremists, they have wanted posters for doctors, and have blown up buildings. how about terrorists instead of extremists then?

It has nothing to do with hate, someone has to point out the horrors your religion is committing so people like you quit ignoring your extremists and pretending all christians are saints. Seriously, christians turn a blind eye to all the evils their religion is doing, yet call on muslims to confront theirs. Lead by example man and take off the blinders.

sirlynchmob wrote:

It has nothing to do with hate, someone has to point out the horrors your religion is committing so people like you quit ignoring your extremists and pretending all christians are saints. Seriously, christians turn a blind eye to all the evils their religion is doing, yet call on muslims to confront theirs. Lead by example man and take off the blinders.

Bull fething !

Christians call each other's gak all the time.

Klan has what? 10 donkey-caves left?

WBC? They're relegated to the crazies and they're one family.

Pro-lifers are extremist? K... whatever. o.O Really... when has a pro-lifer "extremist" last killed anyone? (2009?)

Pass me what you're smoking...

sirlynchmob wrote:

david choe wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

david choe wrote:


There are no more Christian Crusaders because other "good" Christian convince the Crusaders that killing none christian is wrong. Also they lost the war... but they could have form another crusade, but they didn't.

Oh really?

In case you didn't hear, there's a new holy war going on in africa, christians are also over there killing kids for being witches. America still has it's share of extremist christians, the klan, the wbc, pro lifers, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

So what the freaking other 90% good christians doing? They should be busy correcting and slapping those bad christians on the head.

So get to it, go stop your fellow christians from killing non christians, lead by example.

When did the POPE declare another crusade in the past 500 years? Learn to understand what the word Crusade is, not what Christian who kills.

So your plan is to ignore the extremists in your group and not even address them?

crusader: a person who campaigns vigorously for political, social, or religious change; a campaigner.
So those extremists are christian crusaders. Your solution, ignore them.

I like this new pope, he's a good guy. At least 1 christian is trying to do something.

You are not putting or understand the context of the discussion. What I was talking about is Crusade as in Christian Holy War sanction by the Pope in the middle ages. I think I just use the word Crusade right? I didn't say Mother against drunk driver crusade or Christian crusaders for anti abortion. When I say crusade... it means crusade. Look up what the word crusade.

Ignore Christian Extremist? What Christian Extremist do I as an American have to worry about? The reason why ISIL is in the news is because they are 10,000s strong with guns and with intention to kill me and most of us here. Last I checked, the KKK walked around down town in a White Power parade.....oh so scary right. The truth is most Christian Extremist are not a threat at all. They are annoying like the WBB church, the KKK, etc... But a threat?..... I'm more worry about global warming that Christian Extremist.

ISIL threat is very real. I really think that WMD attack will happen to the western world cause by a Jihadist with in the next 10 years. How could it not? You look around your city and you know how unsafe we are, how can some psycho jihadist not pull a stunt to steal a car and park it on a train track? Or dump toxic poison in the water supply. I mean... if I were a psycho jihadist...I can do so much destruction.. and those guys are trained and got nothing to loose in their mind, but only paradise after they commit the crime.

 whembly wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

It has nothing to do with hate, someone has to point out the horrors your religion is committing so people like you quit ignoring your extremists and pretending all christians are saints. Seriously, christians turn a blind eye to all the evils their religion is doing, yet call on muslims to confront theirs. Lead by example man and take off the blinders.

Bull fething !

Christians call each other's gak all the time.

Klan has what? 10 donkey-caves left?

WBC? They're relegated to the crazies and they're one family.

Pro-lifers are extremist? K... whatever. o.O Really... when has a pro-lifer "extremist" last killed anyone? (2009?)

Pass me what you're smoking...

how about:
January 1, 2012 Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family Planning Clinic in Pensacola, Florida, with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.[45]
April 1, 2012 A bomb exploded on the windowsill of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, resulting in a fire that damaged one of the clinic's examination rooms. No injuries were reported.
April 11, 2013 A Planned Parenthood clinic in Bloomington, Indiana, was vandalized with an axe.[46]

Just because they haven't killed anyone lately, doesn't mean they stopped trying.

the klan a bit more than 10: It is estimated to have between 5,000 and 8,000 members as of 2012. Not only that, they're growing in numbers again:
groups such as white power skinheads, neo-Nazis, and the Ku Klux Klan, have been growing more active in the United States in recent years, with a particular focus on opposing immigration, specifically from Mexico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_power_skinhead

why are you downplaying their numbers and terrorist activities? Here's your blinders back.

I'll just point out that in the article about these Christian militias, we can find a clue as to why they exist:

Christians have also been victims of violence, targeted by Muslims in this complex communal conflict that U.N. and humanitarian officials fear could implode into genocide. Several hundred thousand Christians remain in crowded, squalid camps, unable or too afraid to return home.

But attacks on Muslims in particular are intensifying, aid workers said.

Djotodia’s departure weakened the former Muslim rebels, known as Seleka, who carried out deadly attacks on Christians after they grabbed power in March, prompting the birth of Christian militias called the anti-balaka, or “anti-machete” in the local Sango language. The armed vigilantes have used the power vacuum to step up assaults on Muslims.

The above is not offered as acceptance of the violence, but to demonstrate that there was more to the story than sirlynchmob let on.

I'll also point out that over 20k foreign fighters have flocked to Syria and Iraq to fight with Da'Ish. There are not similar numbers of Christians flocking to CAR, it is pretty much an internal struggle.

Comparing the two is asinine.

sirlynchmob wrote:

why are you downplaying their numbers and terrorist activities? Here's your blinders back.

Nitpick all you want... but as CptJake mentioned, comparing the two situations is asinine.

We're not perfect, but I'm convinced we try our best to be good.

 whembly wrote:
Pro-lifers are extremist? K... whatever. o.O Really... when has a pro-lifer "extremist" last killed anyone? (2009?)

Pass me what you're smoking...

I like how you defined "extremism" to only include murders, so you could ignore that firebombing

 whembly wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

why are you downplaying their numbers and terrorist activities? Here's your blinders back.

Nitpick all you want... but as CptJake mentioned, comparing the two situations is asinine.

We're not perfect, but I'm convinced we try our best to be good.

What definition of good are you using?

I wouldn't call this "The total destruction of our enemies and all who support them.” anything resembling "good" Nor the calls to genocide.

Because calling for peace talks, like I suggested and the pope agrees with, has been mocked and ridiculed in this thread already.

I read somewhere, the best way to conquer your enemy is to make him your friend. If your enemy is hungry, you should feed him, If he is thirsty, you should give him drink.

You'd think striving for a peaceful solution would be the good solution, and the best solution.

sirlynchmob wrote:


You'd think striving for a peaceful solution would be the good solution, and the best solution.

That is an admirable goal and should be exhausted.

But, what do you do when your adversary doesn't want "peace"?

Riddle me that Batman!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Pro-lifers are extremist? K... whatever. o.O Really... when has a pro-lifer "extremist" last killed anyone? (2009?)

Pass me what you're smoking...

I like how you defined "extremism" to only include murders, so you could ignore that firebombing

Well... good point.

I'm not trying to convey that's what I'm doing... but, all of the extremist "positions" here in the states pale in comparison to ISIS.

Right?

Or, is my glasses too rosey here?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 whembly wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

why are you downplaying their numbers and terrorist activities? Here's your blinders back.

Nitpick all you want... but as CptJake mentioned, comparing the two situations is asinine.

We're not perfect, but I'm convinced we try our best to be good.

What definition of good are you using?

I wouldn't call this "The total destruction of our enemies and all who support them.” anything resembling "good" Nor the calls to genocide.

Because calling for peace talks, like I suggested and the pope agrees with, has been mocked and ridiculed in this thread already.

I read somewhere, the best way to conquer your enemy is to make him your friend. If your enemy is hungry, you should feed him, If he is thirsty, you should give him drink.

You'd think striving for a peaceful solution would be the good solution, and the best solution.

LOL. you should tell us what ISIL is. You tell me what they are.

You seems very naive about this topic.

You think they are like the old Soviet? You think they are like the Nazi?

These ISIL goals is world domination and all human on earth must be converted to their version of Islam. All opposition are killed. They don't want your land, wealth, or national resources, they want your conversion and join them or die.

You can't talk with these people if their end game is for you to convert or die? Why do you think other Islam nations are fighting them too. Because Islam nation do not want their version of Islam. There will never be peace until they win or we win.

We do not need to send troops, we just need to support our allies there like Jordan and Turkey. Give them supply and air support. Let the region defeat ISIL on it's own and start putting pressure on other Islam nations to educate their people what true Islam is and not allow this perverted version of Islam to thrive.

 whembly wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:


You'd think striving for a peaceful solution would be the good solution, and the best solution.

That is an admirable goal and should be exhausted.

But, what do you do when your adversary doesn't want "peace"?

Riddle me that Batman!

What do you do when your side doesn't want peace?

the states reminds me of the nerdy kid in high school who's to afraid to ask a girl to the dance. "she might say no, So why bother asking". I have to wonder what is more scarey to americans, an endless war, til they win or go bankrupt, or that they might say yes and a peaceful solution can be found.

Clearly for peace talks to work, all the middle eastern countries should be represented, and the US should be kept out of it, and never told the location of the talks. Then if the grown up nations can work out a peaceful solution, the US can be told about it and told to agree or face sanctions.