ISIS

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**MrDwhitey**

I would ask if that means the GOP Senator is suggesting boots on the ground then?

**BaronIveagh**

MrDwhitey wrote:
I would ask if that means the GOP Senator is suggesting boots on the ground then?

Either that your he's suggesting that we use them on the Tea Party. Both are good ideas in my view.

**KiloFiX**

Though I myself am more of a Conservative, I'll admit that the GOP is probably somewhat confused with regard to how to reconcile:

Being strong against terror / ISIS;
Not seeming to support Obama's war request;
Having or not having boots on the ground;
Supporting or not supporting enemies of our enemies that may one day become the new problem.

There is no good answer, but I for one, am not for a half-hearted effort. All in or all out, I say.

**BaronIveagh**

It's a delicate balance, you know, pandering to the electorate while making good on your bribes from the defense industry.

**Relapse**

MrDwhitey wrote:
I would ask if that means the GOP Senator is suggesting boots on the ground then?

Another question to ask is if the state department is now so clueless that they feel the need to appeal to Twitter users for advice in a life and death situation that affects millions.

Might as well since our battle plans are now being broadcast over the news by the Obama administration.

**MrDwhitey**

I do think asking on Twitter is a pretty "prone to backfire" strategy.

On the battle plans I know nothing about that. The only way I can see it being remotely acceptable is if it were a hoax/deception.

**Compel**

Isn't the twitter post more about doing the stuff in local communities. Like um, whatever it's called in the UK (C-something? I'm rubbish at political stuff, it's why I don't like having opinions on it). In any case, it's sorta seems not unfair to well, try to spur chat online about it through a twitter post.

As such, a hypothetical person could draw some unfortunate implications about witty quips involving using bomber planes and special forces to deal with the problem...

**Relapse**

MrDwhitey wrote:
I do think asking on Twitter is a pretty "prone to backfire" strategy.

On the battle plans I know nothing about that. The only way I can see it being remotely acceptable is if it were a hoax/deception.

It should be a great comfort to anyone going into a life and death situation that plans are possibly being forged based on opinions in a Twitter account.

**BaronIveagh**

Relapse wrote:

It should be a great comfort to anyone going into a life and death situation that plans are possibly being forged based on opinions in a Twitter account.

Couldn't be worse than some constituencies. I imagine it's still better than the "Pollin' the Inbred banjo pickin hillbillies" that was popular in the south for many years.

**dogma**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Considering most Middle Easterners' organizational skills (it's not a racial thing, it's a cultural thing. Israelis are some of the worst offenders lol), I see fratricide being a HUGE problem.

I blame the regional obsession with consuming very strong coffee as though it were water.

**djones520**

MrDwhitey wrote:
I would ask if that means the GOP Senator is suggesting boots on the ground then?

US forces are under attack in that nation. The whole "boots on ground" thing is a fallacy. We have men in uniform in harms way there already.

**dogma**

BaronIveagh wrote:

Basically this. Using human shields is, in and of itself, a serious war crime, under the Geneva Conventions and the Rome Statute of 1998, and in the event that a human shield is killed, it's considered the responsibility of the person or persons who authorized their use.

The use of human shields is a war crime, but whether or not the human shield is killed has little impact beyond supporting the charge that human shields were employed; which is itself quite murky.

Generally human shield charges have been upheld only when noncombatants or POWs have been relocated to, or been forced to remain at, valid military targets. When a combatant asset is deployed to a location frequented by noncombatants or POWs the issues becomes fuzzier, especially if the combatant is illegal.

**BaronIveagh**

dogma wrote:
The use of human shields is a war crime, but whether or not the human shield is killed has little impact beyond supporting the charge that human shields were employed; which is itself quite murky.

Untrue. The men in charge of the Vinkt Massacre, Major Kuhner and Lieutenant Lohmann, were tried and convicted for war crimes based not just for the use of human shields, but specifically for the deaths of 140 of them. Both were sentenced to 20 years, but ended up only serving 5, released, IIRC, as part of a general amnesty in Belgium.

**dogma**

BaronIveagh wrote:

Untrue. The men in charge of the Vinkt Massacre, Major Kuhner and Lieutenant Lohmann, were tried and convicted for war crimes based not just for the use of human shields, but specifically for the deaths of 140 of them. Both were sentenced to 20 years, but ended up only serving 5, released, IIRC, as part of a general amnesty in Belgium.

I should have been more precise: killed as a result of being used as a human shield. Which I don't think was actually an issue according to the 1929 Conventions, at least exempting medical personnel or POWs.

As to the civilians in Vinkt: they were executed for the most part. That's how the casualties were hung on the officer's necks (direct action by personnel under their command), and part of how the Conventions came to be reformed in '49.

**Psienesis**

This popped up in Reuters today. ISIS might collapse under its own weight, not because of bombs and bullets, but because of money:

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/20/the-cracks-in-islamic-states-business-plan-are-starting-to-show/

**NuggzTheNinja**

dogma wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Considering most Middle Easterners' organizational skills (it's not a racial thing, it's a cultural thing. Israelis are some of the worst offenders lol), I see fratricide being a HUGE problem.

I blame the regional obsession with consuming very strong coffee as though it were water.

If not for that hideous swill, and cigarettes of course, they probably wouldn't even get out of bed in the morning!

**KiloFiX**

Psienesis wrote:
This popped up in Reuters today. ISIS might collapse under its own weight, not because of bombs and bullets, but because of money:

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/20/the-cracks-in-islamic-states-business-plan-are-starting-to-show/

But don't they already have millions in cache that will last them a good long while?

**Psienesis**

When you're running a nation roughly the size of Great Britain, a few million bucks gets spent real fast. Especially when you're hiring mercenaries at way-above-standard rates.

**BaronIveagh**

dogma wrote:
As to the civilians in Vinkt: they were executed for the most part. That's how the casualties were hung on the officer's necks (direct action by personnel under their command), and part of how the Conventions came to be reformed in '49.

Then they only would have been guilty of 86 deaths instead of the140+ they got nailed with.

**Relapse**

Psienesis wrote:
This popped up in Reuters today. ISIS might collapse under its own weight, not because of bombs and bullets, but because of money:

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/20/the-cracks-in-islamic-states-business-plan-are-starting-to-show/

Then again, the Obama administration is saying to open up hiring fairs as a way to defeat ISIS:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/02/17/state-dept-spokesperson-marie-harf-isis-we-cant-win-war-killing-them-give-them-jobs

**Jihadin**

Seriously piss poor delivery of a solution from the Admin on that

**Relapse**

Jihadin wrote:
Seriously piss poor delivery of a solution from the Admin on that

I wonder if that was one of the Twitter inspired suggestions they are fishing for or if the Obama administration was dumb enough to come up with that gem on their own.

**Computron**

Jihadin wrote:
Seriously piss poor delivery of a solution from the Admin on that

You just don't understand the nuances.

Meanwhile ISIS opens up branches in Libya and Tunisia and start posing a credible threat to the Italian mainland.

Oh yes, and we can add Russia to the list of countries that McCain would declare war against if given the chance. Can't someone muzzle that lunatic?

**CptJake**

Computron wrote:

Oh yes, and we can add Russia to the list of countries that McCain would declare war against if given the chance. Can't someone muzzle that lunatic?

He is a senator. He does not make or execute policy. Who cares if he babbles on?

**Jihadin**

CptJake wrote:
Computron wrote:

Oh yes, and we can add Russia to the list of countries that McCain would declare war against if given the chance. Can't someone muzzle that lunatic?

He is a senator. He does not make or execute policy. Who cares if he babbles on?

Jeh Johnson says to be careful while going to Mall of America. Something might happen

Edit Spelling

**CptJake**

I'm careful everywhere I go.

On topic: France's Charles de Gaulle will be launching sorties against Da'Ish.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/french-aircraft-carrier-joins-anti-isis-mission-in-gulf

**Frazzled**

Sounds like the natural order may be restoring itself, or why there's hope for Libya?
http://news.yahoo.com/embattled-libyan-government-loses-grip-general-expands-power-065848127.html

Embattled Libyan government loses grip as general expands power

BAYDA, Libya (Reuters) - In a hotel lit by a generator in the eastern Libyan town of Bayda, Economy Minister Munir Ali Asr outlines optimistic plans to attract investment to a country ravaged by war and political chaos.

Outside, Bayda lies in darkness after another power cut. Hundreds of residents wait outside petrol stations that have closed as a result of a debilitating power struggle between two rival governments that has wrecked basic services.

Growing frustration over the reality of life in eastern Libya, which contrasts with the promises of politicians, is feeding support for a former army general, Khalifa Haftar, who has set himself up as a warrior against Islamist militancy and who some also see as their saviour.

The internationally recognised prime minister, Abdullah al-Thinni, and his government sit in Bayda, while a rival faction, Libya Dawn, has set up its own government in Tripoli, 1,200 km away, after taking over the capital last summer.

"I am tired of politicians just talking and talking," said Raed, an oil service manager who has been demonstrating in front of Thinni's office. "Thinni is too weak to end this mess. We need a military council headed by Haftar."

Haftar, who has merged his own troops with regular army forces to fight Islamist militants, is styling himself as a would-be strongman in the east.

But while his fighters have won back some territory from Islamists in Benghazi, Haftar is proving a divisive figure among those around Thinni, the parliament, and a federalist movement demanding autonomy for the east.

Critics say Haftar, who did not respond to a request for an interview, sees himself as Libya's version of Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, a former military man.

Certainly, Haftar misses no opportunity to praise Sisi. His war planes joined Egyptian jets bombing suspected Islamic State targets in Libya this week after the jihadist group released a video showing the beheading of Egyptian Coptic Christians.

"Haftar wants to dominate. But if you want to build a state nobody should be above accountability," said a minister in Thinni's cabinet, asking not to be named.
View gallery
Then-General Khalifa Haftar speaks during a news conference …
Then-General Khalifa Haftar speaks during a news conference at a sports club in Abyar, east of Bengh …

UNEASY ALLIANCE

Haftar tends to pop up whenever there is upheaval in Libya. He helped Muammar Gaddafi to power in 1969 but fell out with him after a disastrous defeat suffered by troops he was commanding during Libya's war with Chad in the 1980s.

He was rescued with the help of the United States and lived there until he joined the uprising against Gaddafi in 2011.

In 2013, the grey-haired army veteran ordered parliament dismissed although nothing happened. He has since given a series of televised speeches announcing such things as the establishment of a military council, the imminent "liberation" of Benghazi, and his retirement plans.

Officials in Bayda struggle to explain their relationship with Haftar. They need his forces but prefer not to talk about it.

Lawmakers have several times confirmed and then denied the existence of a decree signed by the parliamentary speaker recalling Haftar to official duty.

But there is no doubt that he is dominating politics in the east. Haftar's top air force officer, Saqer al-Joroushi, has been put in command of the regular air force with the support of his son, a member of the eastern parliament. The regular army is now calling itself the "Libyan National Army", a name already in use by Haftar's troops.

Military sources say regular army commanders in Benghazi feel sidelined as Haftar's officers say they speak for the government.

In an apparent power play, Haftar's forces tried to stop Thinni from visiting Benghazi. Thinni suspended his interior minister, Omar al-Zanki, for making the incident public after Haftar put pressure on the prime minister, military sources say.

WEAKNESS

Thinni is in a weak position, even in his seat at Bayda, a town in the Green Mountains of eastern Libya. It is packed with people who have fled Tripoli complaining of threats or attacks from Libya Dawn.

"The situation not stable," said a soldier at a checkpoint near Thinni's office. Some 50 protesters have showed up several times to demand Thinni's resignation. His scared staff left their posts on one occasion.

"I don't like Haftar. But only he as a military man, and a military council, can save Libya," said a protester who gave his name as Abdelaziz.

A Libyan entrepreneur dismissed the protesters as "thugs paid by the new Gaddafi, Haftar."

Having no ministries, Thinni's team work out of hotels or rented villas. They claim to be in contact with Tripoli-based state bodies but power cuts in Bayda make it almost impossible to make calls.

Thinni's economy ministry said it had released strategic wheat reserves in response to a flour crisis. But the chairman of a Tripoli-based state fund in charge of allocating wheat said he was not aware of any such statement.

"We have a crisis committee in place," said economy minister Asr when asked how basic services will be restored.

He acknowledged difficulties but said Libya had a bright future as an investment destination and trade gateway for Africa. "There is no need to be worried about Libya's economy."

**Relapse**

Jihadin wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Computron wrote:

Oh yes, and we can add Russia to the list of countries that McCain would declare war against if given the chance. Can't someone muzzle that lunatic?

He is a senator. He does not make or execute policy. Who cares if he babbles on?

Jeh Johnson says to be careful while going to Mall of America. Something might happen

Edit Spelling

I have to wonder if that lot in Africa would be stupid enough to actually try something in the mall, or if they're blowing hot air. They'd best be careful with the hard talk since that's all it took for us to go into Panama back in the 80's.

**CptJake**

I suspect IF we were to see a mall attack on the scale of the attack on Westgate it will be conducted by 'home growns', perhaps with a member or two of he cell having traveled overseas for training, but perhaps not. Assuming they are Al Shabaab affiliated or influenced, they will likely have been radicalized/chosen for radicalization by a local leader with aid of the interwebz. Perhaps some clan affiliations/loyalty due to recent (within a generation) family immigration (and likely supporting the clan back home financially).

A lot of those most likely to radicalize get infiltrated/set up by one Federal agency or another before they can actually execute their planned ops, hopefully that trend continues.

From a targeting perspective I would be a lot less worried about a major mall attack in the US, the surveillance and relatively quick reaction of cops would make it difficult to pull off nearly as successfully as the Nairobi attack was. The Mall of America is in a pretty gun friendly area too. At least some folks present may be willing to put up a fight. Most of the big malls have armed security available on site too.

A much easier target would be something like an East Coast grocery store. Fewer exits so more easily controlled, much less likelihood of armed victims, less security on site. You could take it down faster and get a lot more casualties a lot easier (and with a smaller cell which means less likelihood of LE infiltration) than you could a big mall.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Peter Hitchens of the Mail on Sunday, who's waging a one man war against cannabis, is of the opinion that cannabis consumption and poor mental health is a significant factor in the majority of "lone wolf" attacks. Which sounds very plausible to me. Cannabis does certainly seem to crop up a lot in these cases.

Mentally ill people make easy prey for Islamists looking to radicalize and recruit people.

Lone Wolf attacks are the most insidious and terrifying form of terror attack. Theres almost nothing authorities can do to prevent it. ANYBODY can pick up a kitchen knife, go to the nearest store and go nuts. The kill count is immaterial - just killing one single person can have the desired effect. (Lee Rigby).