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Dictators protecting dictators fighting rebels who are supported by dictators and other rebels who were supported by dictators who now have business with a certain NATO country who have a real thing for recreating "Great Human Rights Violations from History!" who are being decried by the US but they are opposed to people the US is bombing (a little bit).
WTF???????????????????
You literally could not make this crap up with a straight face..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 18:32:49
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: Dictators protecting dictators fighting rebels who are supported by dictators and other rebels who were supported by dictators who now have business with a certain NATO country who have a real thing for recreating "Great Human Rights Violations from History!" who are being decried by the US but they are opposed to people the US is bombing (a little bit).
WTF???????????????????
You literally could not make this crap up with a straight face..
Huh? (you did that on purpose, eh?)
It's embarrasing because Russia is destroying all the not-ISIS now, to build the eventual endgame choice. Assad vs ISIS.
It's embarrasing because Russia is destroying all the not-ISIS now, to build the eventual endgame choice. Assad vs ISIS.
Which horse will the world choose?
Hilariously they're claiming FSA are not terrorists.... but they're just in the area and are getting bombed anyway. Whoops!
Personally I think this will backfire spectacularly. Russia is backing Assad, who's had an on again/off again alliance with ISIS. If it goes 'On again' while they're supporting Assad, that will complicate things for Putin immensely as the US etc decry them for supporting terrorism.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
What's amazing here is that literally the only thing the United States has to do to "win" in this scenario... is just walk away. Seriously, if Putin wants the head-ache that is the Middle East, let him fething have it. It literally does not harm us in any way, shape or form.
But no, we won't walk away. We're going to get drawn into yet another idiotic fething political stand-off/proxy war with opposing countries backing their favored factions. Just like always.
I want off this ride.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 02:44:38
BlaxicanX wrote: What's amazing here is that literally the only thing the United States has to do to "win" in this scenario... is just walk away.
That's actually the fastest way to lose in this case.
One) Russia has no interest in stabilizing things. It's actually in their national interest to keep Syria a raging gak hole for the foreseeable future (It helps keep the UAE from selling cheap oil to eastern Europe direct). Hence, propping up the losing side of the war. Assad will never be accepted by the Syrian people as their leader again. Trying to force him on them will last exactly as long as the large scale Russian military presence that puts him back in power stays.
Two) Russia (no matter what they're saying) is not fighting ISIS. Not one Russia airstrike has landed within a country mile of an ISIS target. Most of them have been on the opposite side of the country from ISIS holdings. This smells like the Assad/ISIS alliance is back on, meaning that Russia is about to find themselves on the same side as ISIS (along with, bizarrely, Israel)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Freakazoitt wrote: What about ISIL/ISIS in Iraq? Who will bomb them there?
Well, given Russia's current course, bombing ISIS in Iraq would be counter to policy. After all, shoring up Assad and his allies would sort of encompass supporting ISIS in Iraq as well
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/02 11:05:10
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
BlaxicanX wrote: What's amazing here is that literally the only thing the United States has to do to "win" in this scenario... is just walk away.
That's actually the fastest way to lose in this case.
One) Russia has no interest in stabilizing things. It's actually in their national interest to keep Syria a raging shithole for the foreseeable future (It helps keep the UAE from selling cheap oil to eastern Europe direct). Hence, propping up the losing side of the war. Assad will never be accepted by the Syrian people as their leader again. Trying to force him on them will last exactly as long as the large scale Russian military presence that puts him back in power stays. Assad is an oppressive douchebag but he's one in a million. We don't gain anything practical by meddling in that affair.
Two) Russia (no matter what they're saying) is not fighting ISIS. Not one Russia airstrike has landed within a country mile of an ISIS target. Most of them have been on the opposite side of the country from ISIS holdings. This smells like the Assad/ISIS alliance is back on, meaning that Russia is about to find themselves on the same side as ISIS (along with, bizarrely, Israel)l
Neither of these are losses.
"Assad will stay in power!" Oh well. The only imperative driving anti-Assad sentiment is a moral one, and that's completely meaningless considering one of our greatest allies (Saudi Arabia) is one of the leading human rights abuse gak-holes on the planet.
"Russia won't destroy ISIS!" Neither would we if we were in charge, but it'll be Putin stirring gak up in the ME instead of us, which is a nice change of pace. And despite what you think Russia doesn't need to be actively bombing ISIS in order to become their enemy. Remember that toppling Assad is one of ISIS' goals in the long run and is in fact part of how they came to become so powerful in the first place. Propping up Assad directly puts Russia's interests at odds with ISIS'. They've already taken responsibility for terrorist attacks on Russian assets.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/10/02 08:37:37
BlaxicanX wrote: What's amazing here is that literally the only thing the United States has to do to "win" in this scenario... is just walk away. Seriously, if Putin wants the head-ache that is the Middle East, let him fething have it. It literally does not harm us in any way, shape or form.
But no, we won't walk away. We're going to get drawn into yet another idiotic fething political stand-off/proxy war with opposing countries backing their favored factions. Just like always.
I want off this ride.
Agreed. Russia gains power in the ME, but now it risks being sucked into the same quagmire that we have been in since 1992. Have at it Komrade!
BlaxicanX wrote: What's amazing here is that literally the only thing the United States has to do to "win" in this scenario... is just walk away.
That's actually the fastest way to lose in this case.
One) Russia has no interest in stabilizing things. It's actually in their national interest to keep Syria a raging shithole for the foreseeable future (It helps keep the UAE from selling cheap oil to eastern Europe direct). Hence, propping up the losing side of the war. Assad will never be accepted by the Syrian people as their leader again. Trying to force him on them will last exactly as long as the large scale Russian military presence that puts him back in power stays.
Two) Russia (no matter what they're saying) is not fighting ISIS. Not one Russia airstrike has landed within a country mile of an ISIS target. Most of them have been on the opposite side of the country from ISIS holdings. This smells like the Assad/ISIS alliance is back on, meaning that Russia is about to find themselves on the same side as ISIS (along with, bizarrely, Israel)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Freakazoitt wrote: What about ISIL/ISIS in Iraq? Who will bomb them there?
Well, given Russia's current course, bombing ISIS in Iraq would be counter to policy. After all, shoring up Assad and his allies would sort of encompass supporting ISIS in Iraq as well
Assuming everything you say is the case, AND? They are still getting stuck in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 11:01:39
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote:
Assuming everything you say is the case, AND? They are still getting stuck in.
Ok...
Raise your hands if you think that ISIS getting stronger won't lead to some sort of attack against the US. Anyone? No? Good.
Ok, Russia is going after ISIS rivals. As anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to this war knows, what happens next is one of two things: ISIS absorbs remainder of rivals, and gets stronger, or all sides turn on the new guy.
The latter leads to military embarrassment for Russia, and then more of the same on the ground. The former, and more likely, leads to ISIS getting more experienced men into their ranks, furthering their end game of war against the US.
You seem to think a group that has, among their stated goals, war with the US, will not follow you home if you withdraw?
Or is it not your problem until they attack in Texas?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/02 19:14:36
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
BlaxicanX wrote: What's amazing here is that literally the only thing the United States has to do to "win" in this scenario... is just walk away. Seriously, if Putin wants the head-ache that is the Middle East, let him fething have it. It literally does not harm us in any way, shape or form.
But no, we won't walk away. We're going to get drawn into yet another idiotic fething political stand-off/proxy war with opposing countries backing their favored factions. Just like always.
I want off this ride.
Agreed. Russia gains power in the ME, but now it risks being sucked into the same quagmire that we have been in since 1992. Have at it Komrade! .
Not really. Its only a quagmire for us because we follow stupidly strict ROE, and we care about public perception. Putin, and to an extent the Russian populace, doesn't give a gak about either of those things. This actually means Russia could actually beat these dirt bags because they would no longer have anywhere to hide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 20:38:40
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
... during which time the former Soviet Union collapsed, had its treasury looted by organized crime, saw huge swaths of its former territory break away and fell off the stage as "World's Next Hyperpower" to China.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Grey Templar wrote:Not really. Its only a quagmire for us because we follow stupidly strict ROE, and we care about public perception. Putin, and to an extent the Russian populace, doesn't give a gak about either of those things. .
This is very true. Russia's Victory or Death approach will work much better in Syria than the US 'Hearts and Minds' bs. My only concern is that given how anti-US ISIS is, if Putin isn't just going to use them as a weapon against the US. If you're looking for a really nice weapon with plausible deniability, this really is it.
Psienesis wrote:It sure didn't help them in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan and Syria are two very different birds. Syria has a LOT of open desert, less mountains, more urban.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
I just cannot comprehend the double think and selective moral outrage required to classify Assad as an "evil dictator" who should be bombed and driven out of power "for the sake of stability", whereas Saudi Arabia is treated as a respected ally, our (British) monarchs are sent to grovel on state visits, and we turn a blind eye to their worst abuses.
And that's not directed at anyone here in particular, more so the general attitudes and outrage expressed towards Assad by our governments and media, contrasted with that expressed to SA. A country that sponsors and funds terrorism. A country that is helping fuel the Syrian conflict. A country that is actively bombing it's neighbour, Yemen. A country that fuels sectarian conflict from Iraq, to Yemen, to Syria.
Our governments are morally bankrupt and inconsistent, and so I cannot help but scoff whenever people say we should be bombing Assad because he's "bad". Half the fething world is "bad". If he had oil, or strategic influence to offer us like the Saudis, we'd be calling him an Ally.
If there's one thing that could be considered Ed Miliband' s (the former British Labour party leader and leader of opposition) political Legacy, it's that he obstructed our governments insane attempt to bomb the Syrian government (thereby declaring war) by having his party vote against it in Parliament. He was utterly useless, but he did one thing right at least.
Frazzled wrote:
Assuming everything you say is the case, AND? They are still getting stuck in.
Ok...
Raise your hands if you think that ISIS getting stronger won't lead to some sort of attack against the US. Anyone? No? Good.
Ok, Russia is going after ISIS rivals. As anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to this war knows, what happens next is one of two things: ISIS absorbs remainder of rivals, and gets stronger, or all sides turn on the new guy.
The latter leads to military embarrassment for Russia, and then more of the same on the ground. The former, and more likely, leads to ISIS getting more experienced men into their ranks, furthering their end game of war against the US.
You seem to think a group that has, among their stated goals, war with the US, will not follow you home if you withdraw?
Or is it not your problem until they attack in Texas?
You're being a little disingenuous. Russia is not doing this in a vacuum.
We're bombing ISIS.
Russia is bombing the rest of the rebels (including Al Qeuda affiliates. Remember them?)
I don't see how that's a net gain for ISIS. They're still being bombed too, by us and everyone else, even if Russia is leaving them alone. If there's a concern that ISIS may benefit, then we ought to step up our own bombing campaigns to stop them capitalising on the opportunity.
What is your desired end game exactly? What would your ideal Syrian state look like? Do you want the "Free Syrian Army" to win, overthrow Assad, and form a new Syrian government? The result would be a weak chaotic mess like Libya, or a new Sunni theocracy at best. Keep in mind that the FSA includes groups that are far from moderate, and even some groups affiliated with Al Qaeda.
You claim that Russia bombing ISIS' rivals will pave the wave for ISIS, but won't bombing Assad and dismantling his government have the same effect? Who will we replace him with? The FSA? They're not all that different to ISIS.
And ISIS is coming to Europe regardless. In fact it doesn't need to come to Europe, there's enough "Home grown" terrorism already. Anybody can grab a few kitchen knives, and stalk and kill a soldier or police officer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/03 03:53:30
You're being a little disingenuous. Russia is not doing this in a vacuum.
We're bombing ISIS.
Russia is bombing the rest of the rebels (including Al Qeuda affiliates. Remember them?)
I don't see how that's a net gain for ISIS. They're still being bombed too, by us and everyone else, even if Russia is leaving them alone. If there's a concern that ISIS may benefit, then we ought to step up our own bombing campaigns to stop them capitalising on the opportunity.
Um, I might point out that they were advocating packing it in and withdrawing from the region. That pretty much brings an end to the US led bombing campaign. Not that ISIS will notice. After six thousand bombing runs in the last year, the US air campaign has made little real progress against ISIS. We've seen localized victories, usually offset by ISIS gains in surrounding areas, but nothing that can be called 'substantial gains'. basically the air campaign has become a titanic game of whackamole.
You can't win a war from the air. At some point, you have to deploy men on the ground. The administration knows this, and is hoping hard that it doesn't finally come to that until Obama is out of office.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
I'm not sure that anything really changed. Russia didn't handle itself well in Chechnya per se. Younger conscripts were routinely taken to town by older more experienced Chechens.
Also the Syrian army is using all Russian equipment so it's not like ISIS doesn't know what to expect. Obviously the export versions of the Russkie gear isn't the highest tier though. I guess my point is that there isn't really too much reason to believe that things will be different for them this time around.
All told I'd rather the Russians take the burden than us. And it takes a lot for me to say this as a guy who trained to fight the Syrian army in the event of a war, but Assad is the lesser of two evils here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/03 17:37:12
I'm not sure that anything really changed. Russia didn't handle itself well in Chechnya per se. Younger conscripts were routinely taken to town by older more experienced Chechens.
Also the Syrian army is using all Russian equipment so it's not like ISIS doesn't know what to expect. Obviously the export versions of the Russkie gear isn't the highest tier though. I guess my point is that there isn't really too much reason to believe that things will be different for them this time around.
All told I'd rather the Russians take the burden than us. And it takes a lot for me to say this as a guy who trained to fight the Syrian army in the event of a war, but Assad is the lesser of two evils here.
It has less to do with experience and more that Russia doesn't care if they hit civilians in the crossfire. Thats really the only advantage extremists like this have had, and its a major one. When it no longer works they'll fold.
As for the equipment, Russia doesn't tend to sell their actual equipment to 3rd parties. They sell cheaper shoddier knockoffs as you mentioned. A Russian operated T-72 is way different from a T-72 you bought from the Russians, and that holds true for just about everything they export.
As for the last part, I agree.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: As for the equipment, Russia doesn't tend to sell their actual equipment to 3rd parties. They sell cheaper shoddier knockoffs as you mentioned. A Russian operated T-72 is way different from a T-72 you bought from the Russians, and that holds true for just about everything they export.
It varies wildly, but no thanks to the Russians.
Typically a Russian 'monkey model' tank is a piece of garbage out of the box and everyone knows it, so they start altering them. Your Syrian T-72 is more heavily armored than a Russian one, but is lacking in good quality reactive armor and the higher end electronics., favoring spaced armor and Israeli style chain skirts on the turret.
My money is on some nasty urban tank fights in the near future for the Russians.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/03 19:50:00
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Literally 100% of American citizens I have spoken with, even on my ultra-liberal campus, are ok with Russia bombing any/all terrorist groups operating in Syria. N number of 36 so far, yes I know its small but I only started last week and I have to approach it as conversation, not pointed questioning.
Just thought that was interesting.
But yeah, no such thing as "moderate" rebels....they are all jihadis. Thats pretty obvious to anyone who actually follows international news media.
Grey Templar wrote: As for the equipment, Russia doesn't tend to sell their actual equipment to 3rd parties. They sell cheaper shoddier knockoffs as you mentioned. A Russian operated T-72 is way different from a T-72 you bought from the Russians, and that holds true for just about everything they export.
It varies wildly, but no thanks to the Russians.
Typically a Russian 'monkey model' tank is a piece of garbage out of the box and everyone knows it, so they start altering them. Your Syrian T-72 is more heavily armored than a Russian one, but is lacking in good quality reactive armor and the higher end electronics., favoring spaced armor and Israeli style chain skirts on the turret.
My money is on some nasty urban tank fights in the near future for the Russians.
All that new tech Pooty had on parade will get field tested, I bet. Kinda like how the Georgian war was used as a testbed for certain new stuff, and also served to inform later weapons development.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/04 16:31:32
All that new tech Pooty had on parade will get field tested, I bet. Kinda like how the Georgian war was used as a testbed for certain new stuff, and also served to inform later weapons development.
That might be a very bad thing for the poor guy that gets to drive it. That new tank looks to be about as good as the F-35.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well at least the Russians do actual live combat tests of their stuff.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Well at least the Russians do actual live combat tests of their stuff.
and it's usually designed by someone who's at least seen a similar weapon used. The Zumwalts were built by someone who didn't understand that the shore shoots back.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Freakazoitt wrote: Sry again for bad quality. It looks like WW1 movies or worst.
30 hidden in forest military vehicles destroyed
Great. When will you be doing that to ISIS? Forests consist of about 1% of Syria, all of them in the coastal mountain ranges, on the opposite side of the country from the Terrorists that, by the way, your pal Assad got on TV and asked the US to stop bombing as it was counter productive to peace in Syria.
Smells like ISIS is back on your 'good terrorist' list.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
BaronIveagh
ISIL also bombed, but now it is important to save the army of Assad, because the actions of Russian Aero Space forces (cool name?) without ground support will be of little effect.
some SU-24 gopro vid
Putin's birthday fireworks rocket attack from Caspean sea
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/07 13:19:04
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Two bomb explosions targeted a peace rally Saturday by leftist and Kurdish activists in the Turkish capital of Ankara, killing 86 people and wounding 186, the country's health minister said.
The explosions occurred seconds apart outside Ankara's main train station as hundreds were gathering for the rally, organized by Turkey's public sector workers' union and other civic society groups. The rally was to call for increased democracy and an end to the renewed violence between Kurdish rebels and Turkish security forces.
Authorities were investigating whether the attacks — which struck 50 meters (yards) apart — were suicide bombings. There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the deadliest attacks in Turkey in years.
The attacks came at a tense time for Turkey, a NATO member that borders war-torn Syria, hosts more refugees than any other nation in the world and is holding a general election on Nov. 1.
Authorities had been on alert after Turkey agreed to take a more active role in the U.S.-led battle against the Islamic State group. Turkey opened up its bases to U.S. aircraft to launch air raids on the extremist group in Syria and carried out a limited number of strikes on the group itself. Russia has also entered the fray on behalf of the Syrian government recently, bombing sites in Syria and reportedly violating Turkish airspace a few times in the past week.
Turkish jets have also carried out numerous deadly airstrikes on Kurdish rebel targets in northern Iraq. Some 150 police and soldiers and hundreds of rebels of the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, have been killed since July, when the conflict flared anew.
Busloads of activists had travelled to Ankara from other cities to attend Saturday's peace rally. Health Minister Mehmet Muezzinoglu said 62 of the bomb blast victims in Ankara died at the scene, while 24 others died after being taken to the hospital.
An Associated Press photographer saw several bodies covered with bloodied flags and banners that demonstrators had brought with them for the rally. Police later cordoned off the area.
Television footage from Turkey's Dogan news agency showed a line of protesters on the street near the train station, chanting and performing a traditional dance with their hands locked, when a large explosion went off behind them.
The video also showed several people later lying injured on the streets or being taken into ambulances. Scuffles broke out between police and family members frantically searching for loved ones or complaining about the poor police response.
"There was a massacre in the middle of Ankara," said Lami Ozgen, head of the Confederation of Public Sector Trade Unions, or KESK.
Small anti-government protests later broke out at the scene of the explosions and outside of Ankara hospitals as Interior Minister Selami Altinok visited the wounded.
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan condemned Saturday's attacks, which he said targeted the country's unity and peace, and called for solidarity.
"The greatest and most meaningful response to this attack is the solidarity and determination we will show against it," Erdogan said.
Critics have accused Erdogan of re-igniting the fighting with the Kurds to seek electoral gains — hoping that the turmoil would rally voter back to the ruling Justice and Development Party, or AKP. Electoral gains by the country's pro-Kurdish party caused the AKP, founded by Erdogan, to lose its parliamentary majority in a June election after a decade of single-party rule.
Erdogan denies the accusation.
Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu held an emergency security meeting to discuss the attack. His office said he was suspending his election campaign for the next three days.
It was the third attack targeting meetings of Kurdish activists. In July, a suicide bombing blamed on the Islamic State group killed 33 peace activists, including many Kurds, in the town of Suruc near Turkey's border with Syria. Two people were killed in June in a bomb attack at a pro-Kurdish party's election rally.
"This attack resembles and is a continuation of the Diyarbakir and Suruc (attacks)," said Selahattin Demirtas, leader of the Turkey's pro-Kurdish party. "We are faced with a huge massacre."
Hours after the attack in Ankara, Kurdish rebels declared a temporary cease-fire ahead of Turkey's Nov. 1 election.
A Kurdish rebel statement said Saturday the group is halting hostilities to allow the election to proceed safely under "equal and fair" conditions. It said it would not launch attacks but would defend itself.
The government has previously dismissed any possible Kurdish cease-fire plans, saying the rebels must lay down their arms and leave the Turkish territory.
There's also rumours that Turkey shot down a Russian fighter...
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
The Undying Spawn of Shub-Niggurath 
