Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Frazzled wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It should also be noted that many of the current Middle Eastern countries lived as subjects of one or another European powers until the 20th century, which prevented a lot of sectarian violence.

It should also be noted that there wasn't much sectarian violence until the European powers came and then left. .

You should read more history books.

Edit: Ehhh, doesn't matter.


On a very serious note. I feel angry and sad for the people of Paris and greater France. If this has roots in ISIS I think its time for the world community to persue a real (an violent) solution.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It should also be noted that many of the current Middle Eastern countries lived as subjects of one or another European powers until the 20th century, which prevented a lot of sectarian violence.

It should also be noted that there wasn't much sectarian violence until the European powers came and then left. .

You should read more history books.

Edit: Ehhh, doesn't matter.


On a very serious note. I feel angry and sad for the people of Paris and greater France. If this has roots in ISIS I think its time for the world community to persue a real (an violent) solution.

Yeah, if this is ISIS's doing France (and EU/NATO/Russia) should seriously consider sending the army in.

Syria will become another Afghanistan anyway.

 LethalShade wrote:
Syria will become another Afghanistan anyway.

That would be an improvement.

If it is ISIS, well what reason is there not to wipe them off the map with all speed and efficiency?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
If this has roots in ISIS I think its time for the world community to persue a real (an violent) solution.

Yeah, if this is ISIS's doing France (and EU/NATO/Russia) should seriously consider sending the army in.

I'm pretty sure it's a separate (splinter) group. France has a history of problems with Muslim Africans integrating into French society. The terrorists in today's attacks may claim affiliation with al qada or isis but I don't know if it's more than boasting.

Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah, if this is ISIS's doing France (and EU/NATO/Russia) should seriously consider sending the army in.

As of yet we have no idea what's going on. Could be Algerians again too.

Iron_Captain wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:
Syria will become another Afghanistan anyway.

That would be an improvement.

I tend to think of Syria as Stalingrad to Afghanistan's Tet Offensive.

Not really sure if either one is an improvement over the other. Just lethally dangerous in differing ways.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It should also be noted that many of the current Middle Eastern countries lived as subjects of one or another European powers until the 20th century, which prevented a lot of sectarian violence.

It should also be noted that there wasn't much sectarian violence until the European powers came and then left. .

You should read more history books.

Edit: Ehhh, doesn't matter.


On a very serious note. I feel angry and sad for the people of Paris and greater France. If this has roots in ISIS I think its time for the world community to persue a real (an violent) solution.

Yeah, if this is ISIS's doing France (and EU/NATO/Russia) should seriously consider sending the army in.

I would vote that we should start by glassing The Kingdom, as they're at the very heart of the civilised world's modern jihadi problems... Then we can mop up Islamic State.

Their oil be damned, Canada especially and Russia have more than enough oil & gas to tie us over until we can come up with better, cleaner and more efficient technologies.

Reports coming out make it sound like ISIS. An interesting note was the strangely blank expressions some of the gunmen/bombers wore.

Sound like IS' drugged up bomb zombies to anyone else?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Reports coming out make it sound like ISIS. An interesting note was the strangely blank expressions some of the gunmen/bombers wore.

Sound like IS' drugged up bomb zombies to anyone else?

Twas a fairly common thing during my time in Iraq that the local groups would use drugs because, as it turns out, not many people willingly want to kill themselves, or they get to their location and have second thoughts.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


Twas a fairly common thing during my time in Iraq that the local groups would use drugs because, as it turns out, not many people willingly want to kill themselves, or they get to their location and have second thoughts.

IS likes to take it up a notch, they kidnap the soon to be bomber, drug them to the gills and then put the vests on them. Sometimes the bomber has the control, sometimes it's remotely detonated. Then they heard them in front of an attack, or just drop them near the target with some really basic instructions. Has the charming effect of forcing you to choose between either gunning down basically innocent people or get blown to hell.

Thus, they get their target and don't even have to lose one of their own guys in the process.

Not that I think that happened in Paris, re-reading the accounts, it sounds like these guys were very much in control, just hopped up.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Reports coming out make it sound like ISIS. An interesting note was the strangely blank expressions some of the gunmen/bombers wore.

Sound like IS' drugged up bomb zombies to anyone else?

Twas a fairly common thing during my time in Iraq that the local groups would use drugs because, as it turns out, not many people willingly want to kill themselves, or they get to their location and have second thoughts.

Forgot the Back Up trigger (guy with the cell phone in case the bomber gets second thoughts

It will be interesting to see if our newly self-styled 'Boy Wonder' Justin Truedurp will idiotically go through with his plan to pull Canada out of the coalition forces bombing campaign.
Even the majority of his own MP's are fully supportive of keeping Canada in the fight, especially after the Paris attacks.

Not to mention, following through with on his stupidity will simply show;
1. Our allies cannot count on Canada to be of any value when confronting enemy threats.

2. Our enemies will now see Canada as a nation of weak-willed cowards.

France resumed the bombings tonight, with a strike aimed at Raqqa.

 LethalShade wrote:
France resumed the bombings tonight, with a strike aimed at Raqqa.

*sigh* Yay, another attack likely to amount to nothing.

How bad does it have to get before someone calls down to the 5th Bomb Wing and tells them to do what they do best? I'm sure that somewhere in the US stockpile there's enough dumb bombs sitting around that need used before their expiration dates to level the city five times over.

They want to rise to Allah in a pillar of fire? That can be arraigned.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:
France resumed the bombings tonight, with a strike aimed at Raqqa.

*sigh* Yay, another attack likely to amount to nothing.

How bad does it have to get before someone calls down to the 5th Bomb Wing and tells them to do what they do best? I'm sure that somewhere in the US stockpile there's enough dumb bombs sitting around that need used before their expiration dates to level the city five times over.

They want to rise to Allah in a pillar of fire? That can be arraigned.

20 bombs on two sites. A command center and an ammunition depot/training camp.

(But imo, it's a good excuse to show nice patriotic images on TV)

Just random musings, but I think France (as they were the ones directly attacked) may end up having a far bigger impact on the world communty's response than they would otherwise (wich would be pretty big anyway as they are part of the permanent UN security members). I wonder what the eventual response will be?

Considering the fact that we will probably get attacked a third, fourth (et cætera) time, other countries will either hope that we soak up all the incoming gakstorm for them, or fear enough for their lives to plan a huge attack.

(Maybe. I'm bad with geopolitics)

 LethalShade wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:
France resumed the bombings tonight, with a strike aimed at Raqqa.

*sigh* Yay, another attack likely to amount to nothing.

How bad does it have to get before someone calls down to the 5th Bomb Wing and tells them to do what they do best? I'm sure that somewhere in the US stockpile there's enough dumb bombs sitting around that need used before their expiration dates to level the city five times over.

They want to rise to Allah in a pillar of fire? That can be arraigned.

20 bombs on two sites. A command center and an ammunition depot/training camp.

(But imo, it's a good excuse to show nice patriotic images on TV)

Why do I think those targets were a shed and a slightly larger shed...................

I do not think bombing alone will get rid of ISIS and I doubt any nation actually is willing to send large amounts of troops into the area for the long term?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:
France resumed the bombings tonight, with a strike aimed at Raqqa.

*sigh* Yay, another attack likely to amount to nothing.

How bad does it have to get before someone calls down to the 5th Bomb Wing and tells them to do what they do best? I'm sure that somewhere in the US stockpile there's enough dumb bombs sitting around that need used before their expiration dates to level the city five times over.

They want to rise to Allah in a pillar of fire? That can be arraigned.

20 bombs on two sites. A command center and an ammunition depot/training camp.

(But imo, it's a good excuse to show nice patriotic images on TV)

Why do I think those targets were a shed and a slightly larger shed...................

I do not think bombing alone will get rid of ISIS and I doubt any nation actually is willing to send large amounts of troops into the area for the long term?

Only time will tell...

Reading up on just how high the price tag is getting. ISIS may not be able to win, but they can make it very expensive.

What we need is a diplomatic consensus for the following:

1. Middle Eastern powers to join in a military campaign against ISIL.
2. Cut off ISIL's sources of support like the money coming out of Saudi Arabia.

ISIL does not have the weapons and training to stand up to a proper modern army. There has to be a campaign in which we surround the ISIL controlled areas, block off their retreat, sweep them up, capture or kill their men and destroy their heavy equipment. This doesn't have to be and should not be a long-term occupation. It needs to be seen as a kind of anti-piracy operation, in which the world order takes down a dangerous criminal organisation.

The other thing we need to do is work effectively against disaffection and radicalisation at home. Some of the Paris attackers came from areas of high unemployment blighted by urban neglect. Young people in such conditions are susceptible to radicalisation because they can see the current system has failed them. Let's start to get rid of the urban blight. It only takes political will.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What we need is a diplomatic consensus for the following:

1. Middle Eastern powers to join in a military campaign against ISIL.
2. Cut off ISIL's sources of support like the money coming out of Saudi Arabia.

ISIL does not have the weapons and training to stand up to a proper modern army. There has to be a campaign in which we surround the ISIL controlled areas, block off their retreat, sweep them up, capture or kill their men and destroy their heavy equipment. This doesn't have to be and should not be a long-term occupation. It needs to be seen as a kind of anti-piracy operation, in which the world order takes down a dangerous criminal organisation.

The other thing we need to do is work effectively against disaffection and radicalisation at home. Some of the Paris attackers came from areas of high unemployment blighted by urban neglect. Young people in such conditions are susceptible to radicalisation because they can see the current system has failed them. Let's start to get rid of the urban blight. It only takes political will.

KK. Diplomatic consensus can hardly be reached when you have a Sunni Shia divide in the region.
There would have to be regime change in Saudi Arabiain order to halt the flow of money from this predominately Sunni ruled kingdom to a predominate Sunni caliphate up north.
Saudi would have to have their arm twisted to leave the Yemen well alone as well.
Neuturing Saudi means tacit approval of Iranian intervention in the area.
It also means helping states surrounding Israel against ISIL radicals. In fact recognizing Palestine would be one major step towards reducing tensions and opportunities for extremism. Israel has a vested interest in keeping the chaotic status quo going. It doesn't want strong neighbours, with international recognition it may have to fight against.
The Kurdish question has to be answered. A Kurdish state would be a viable and effective buffer against Sunni extremism in Northern Iraq and parts of Syria. The Kurds seem to be one of the most effective forces at keeping ISIL at bay.
Turkey, a NATO member and wannabe European wants the Kurds crushed and still wages war against them, going so far as to hinder the fight against ISIL to persue their agenda.

And the major diplomatic elephant in the room. Syria. Assad and his forces would be an effective bulwark against ISIL and could be the launching point for a counter offensive . Continued war is preventing force coming to bear. The west need to accept that Syria is better with the current and legitimate government intact than it is now. Short term Europe needs an intact Syria. and that mean Assad winning his war.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What we need is a diplomatic consensus for the following:

1. Middle Eastern powers to join in a military campaign against ISIL.
2. Cut off ISIL's sources of support like the money coming out of Saudi Arabia.

ISIL does not have the weapons and training to stand up to a proper modern army. There has to be a campaign in which we surround the ISIL controlled areas, block off their retreat, sweep them up, capture or kill their men and destroy their heavy equipment. This doesn't have to be and should not be a long-term occupation. It needs to be seen as a kind of anti-piracy operation, in which the world order takes down a dangerous criminal organisation.

The other thing we need to do is work effectively against disaffection and radicalisation at home. Some of the Paris attackers came from areas of high unemployment blighted by urban neglect. Young people in such conditions are susceptible to radicalisation because they can see the current system has failed them. Let's start to get rid of the urban blight. It only takes political will.

That all sounds good in theory, but I don't see it working. The Arabic states that would get involved are already involved, and even if we did get literally everybody involved, that doesn't change the fact that your average dude on the street in a lot of these countries hates his own government only a little less than he hates crusaders coming across the Med. We don't prevent a backlash from non-Syrians and non-Iraqis just by getting the governments on board, in other words.

Also, if we do Fallujah Part Deux: Fallujah Harder in Syria, we learn that it's pretty easy for an ISIL solider to become a not-ISIL soldier just by putting down his AK. These guys melt into civilian patchwork, wait for us to leave, and then start back up again. We'll get some of the head honchos who can't just claim to be another Joe from the block, and we'll sure as hell kill a lot of the ones that fight, but we'll never get 'em all.

I don't think anyone's come anywhere close to a workable solution, honestly, and that may reflect the fact that there isn't a good one.

"Political will"

Dude, stop the nonsense, you're talking about the French government

Does the French still have the Legion? Sounds like a job opportunity.

 Frazzled wrote:
Does the French still have the Legion? Sounds like a job opportunity.

You mean the Foreign Legion ? Yep, we still have them.

 Frazzled wrote:
Does the French still have the Legion? Sounds like a job opportunity.

Yeah, the Foreign Legion is still going strong.
I don't know their current strength, but I do believe they had some anti-terror operations in the last couple of years.

 LethalShade wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Does the French still have the Legion? Sounds like a job opportunity.

You mean the Foreign Legion ? Yep, we still have them.

Time for the slow march. I have this image of Legion troops being transported on Russian transport planes, while Iran flies cover....

 Frazzled wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Does the French still have the Legion? Sounds like a job opportunity.

You mean the Foreign Legion ? Yep, we still have them.

Time for the slow march. I have this image of Legion troops being transported on Russian transport planes, while Iran flies cover....

You do realize they are not like the Roman Legion, right?
I mean, the name is really cool, but they aren't the main army.