ISIS

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Didn't say Japan and Germany specifically were examples of Imperialism. Rather, I mean the general idea that we have the right to interfere in countries all over the world, deposing governments, replacing them with puppet governments or 'democratic' governments more amenable to us, remaking their societies whether they like it or not and forcing our values onto them.

European Imperialism might have officially ended half a century ago, but modern 'Liberal Interventionism' is very much a continuation of the Imperial era sentiment that we have the right to reshape the world the way we want it.

Franky I'm sick of my country (Britain) interfering in places all over the world that are none of our business. We just get dragged into conflict after conflict with little to show for it. Our politicians are to fething incompetent and egotistical to do it right.

And we're going after the wrong targets anyway. If we're really serious about tackling Islamic extremism and we're willing to violate national sovereignty and launch costly bloody wars, then Saudi Arabia should be our target. They are the ultimate origin of the vast majority of it all. Instead, we call them an 'Ally', sell them weapons and we turn a blind eye to their backwards barbaric and medieval society and their support for Islamic fundamentalism.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Didn't say Japan and Germany specifically were examples of Imperialism. Rather, I mean the general idea that we have the right to interfere in countries all over the world, deposing governments, replacing them with puppet governments or 'democratic' governments more amenable to us, remaking their societies and whether they like it or not and forcing our values onto them.

European Imperialism might have officially ended half a century ago, but modern 'Liberal Interventionism' is very much a continuation of the Imperial era sentiment that we have the right to reshape the world the way we want it.

Franky I'm sick of my country (Britain) interfering in places all over the world that are none of our business. We just get dragged into conflict after conflict with little to show for it. Our politicians are to fething incompetent and egotistical to do it right.

And we're going after the wrong targets anyway. If we're really serious about tackling Islamic extremism and we're willing to violate national sovereignty and launch costly bloody wars, then Saudi Arabia should be our target. They are the ultimate origin of the vast majority of it all. Instead, we call them an 'Ally', sell them weapons and we turn a blind eye to their backwards barbaric and medieval society and their support for Islamic fundamentalism.

Fair enough. I suppose the current policy of "peace keeping" could be seen as a variant of Imperialism.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

We (Britain) are not an Imperial power anymore. We should stop acting like one.

**Frazzled**

Breotan wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

How's that working out in Afghanistan? We just got out of Iraq. Sorry but sending home a thousand US citizens a year in body bags and maiming tens of thousands every year is not sane. WE JUST TRIED IT AND PAID FOR IT IN BLOOD AND PAIN.

The problem with the Stan, and Iraq, was that we were trying to "win hearts and minds" which means the training panties were on. I'm saying if we go in, we go in like it's WW2, if it moves and has a gun, it shouldn't be. I mean, it was utterly ridiculous the things we weren't "allowed" to do because of having such a restrictive ROE (and don't get me wrong, the ROE and EOF measures still allowed for self-defense, they were just a bit restrictive for "hearts and minds" reasons)

Can someone tell me the date we pulled out of Germany after WWII? Japan? Trick question in both cases. We are still there in both countries after 70 years. We'll continue to be in both countries for at least another 70. We need to do the same in the middle east. Let WWII be our guide and let the policies that guided our strategy in Korea and Vietnam educate us on what NOT to do.

1. Go in and conquer ISIS and secure Iraq. Declare families accepting martyrdom payments "collaborators" and treat them as such. Radical Imams need to be identified as insurgents and dealt with. Identify and kill infiltrators instead of letting them do whatever the hell they want. None of this "hearts and minds" bovine excrement. None of this "let's use Iraq as a meat grinder". None of this "we don't attack certain targets or fight during certain holidays because it's important to show that we're better than the bad guys."
2. Establish a permanent military base, staff it with an Army Division and Air Wing, then set up a government obedient to the US and allies as was done in Germany and Japan after WWII. Deal with corruption immediately and aggressively. Tribal leaders that refuse to play ball need to be brought to heel or stepped on hard until they comply.
3. Begin nation building as we did in Germany and Japan post WWII. This may even include establishment of a Kurdish nation. Or not. Either way, here is where you start winning "hearts and minds".
4. As infrastructure begins to take hold, ensure western values of honor and decency replace undesired cultural values. Weed out destructive values and beliefs instead of letting them incorporate into society.
5. As the new nation matures, diversify its economy base and assist it in operating as a stabilizing power in the region. Begin transitioning our military presence there from an occupation force to a regional defense and deterrence roll.

It all sounds unpleasant but that's basically how we turned both Japan and Germany into strong allies and ensured no further stupidity can be possible by anyone with "old guard" ideals.

We haven't had 10,000 casualties a year for the last 70 years in Germany. If so it would have been an atomic wasteland by now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We tried that. We called it Imperialism. Its not very fashionable nowadays.

Also used to be called White Man's Burden. How'd that work out for most of the former colonies?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breotan wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We tried that. We called it Imperialism. Its not very fashionable nowadays.

Not really. Japan and Germany were allowed to keep their own governments, with their own laws and policies, no?
At least, West Germany was. East Germany had a puppet government.

Iraq needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. We need to force civilization down the throats of a barbaric culture. We really can't afford to be nice about it.

What could possibly go wrong.

**Iron_Captain**

Breotan wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

How's that working out in Afghanistan? We just got out of Iraq. Sorry but sending home a thousand US citizens a year in body bags and maiming tens of thousands every year is not sane. WE JUST TRIED IT AND PAID FOR IT IN BLOOD AND PAIN.

The problem with the Stan, and Iraq, was that we were trying to "win hearts and minds" which means the training panties were on. I'm saying if we go in, we go in like it's WW2, if it moves and has a gun, it shouldn't be. I mean, it was utterly ridiculous the things we weren't "allowed" to do because of having such a restrictive ROE (and don't get me wrong, the ROE and EOF measures still allowed for self-defense, they were just a bit restrictive for "hearts and minds" reasons)

Can someone tell me the date we pulled out of Germany after WWII? Japan? Trick question in both cases. We are still there in both countries after 70 years. We'll continue to be in both countries for at least another 70. We need to do the same in the middle east. Let WWII be our guide and let the policies that guided our strategy in Korea and Vietnam educate us on what NOT to do.

1. Go in and conquer ISIS and secure Iraq. Declare families accepting martyrdom payments "collaborators" and treat them as such. Radical Imams need to be identified as insurgents and dealt with. Identify and kill infiltrators instead of letting them do whatever the hell they want. None of this "hearts and minds" bovine excrement. None of this "let's use Iraq as a meat grinder". None of this "we don't attack certain targets or fight during certain holidays because it's important to show that we're better than the bad guys."
2. Establish a permanent military base, staff it with an Army Division and Air Wing, then set up a government obedient to the US and allies as was done in Germany and Japan after WWII. Deal with corruption immediately and aggressively. Tribal leaders that refuse to play ball need to be brought to heel or stepped on hard until they comply.
3. Begin nation building as we did in Germany and Japan post WWII. This may even include establishment of a Kurdish nation. Or not. Either way, here is where you start winning "hearts and minds".
4. As infrastructure begins to take hold, ensure western values of honor and decency replace undesired cultural values. Weed out destructive values and beliefs instead of letting them incorporate into society.
5. As the new nation matures, diversify its economy base and assist it in operating as a stabilizing power in the region. Begin transitioning our military presence there from an occupation force to a regional defense and deterrence roll.

It all sounds unpleasant but that's basically how we turned both Japan and Germany into strong allies and ensured no further stupidity can be possible by anyone with "old guard" ideals.

That sounds better than the current US strategy. But the Soviet Union tried much the same thing in Afghanistan, and it failed, because the Afghans just never stopped fighting, no matter how many of them were killed. The USSR was very aggressive and racked up a huge kill count, and it spend billions of rubles on building a sustainable Afghan government according to Communist ideals and values, but there were always more insurgents, and after the Red Army left, they quickly overwhelmed the Afghan government. That is a big difference with Germany and Japan. In Germany and Japan, people were tired of war. They just gave up and stopped fighting. I don't see this happening in Afghanistan. No matter how much are killed, people still continue to head to the mountains to join insurgent groups.
Germany and Japan were radically different societies. They had strong central governments, and the only divisions there were political rather than ethnical/religious/tribal. You can bridge political gaps and change them through education. But ethnicity and religion?
I think if you want to build a new Afghan civilisation, it would not be possible without completely destroying the old one first. Is anyone willing to do that? Would it be a good thing to do?

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
You can bridge political gaps and change them through education. But ethnicity and religion?

Yes, you can.

But it takes the sort of act that even Putin would balk at.

**Jihadin**

Re-open the Gula...eerrr Education Camp....errrrrr....Transition Facilities

Edit

I do believe when the Russians were in Afghanistan that the current political organizations of Russia and their sponsor government in Afghanistan was religion free

**Ensis Ferrae**

Iron_Captain wrote:

That sounds better than the current US strategy. But the Soviet Union tried much the same thing in Afghanistan, and it failed, because the Afghans just never stopped fighting, no matter how many of them were killed. The USSR was very aggressive and racked up a huge kill count, and it spend billions of rubles on building a sustainable Afghan government according to Communist ideals and values, but there were always more insurgents, and after the Red Army left, they quickly overwhelmed the Afghan government. That is a big difference with Germany and Japan. In Germany and Japan, people were tired of war. They just gave up and stopped fighting. I don't see this happening in Afghanistan. No matter how much are killed, people still continue to head to the mountains to join insurgent groups.
Germany and Japan were radically different societies. They had strong central governments, and the only divisions there were political rather than ethnical/religious/tribal. You can bridge political gaps and change them through education. But ethnicity and religion?
I think if you want to build a new Afghan civilisation, it would not be possible without completely destroying the old one first. Is anyone willing to do that? Would it be a good thing to do?

I think looking at the USSR's involvement in Afghanistan isn't quite right... If you can, look up pictures of Afghanistan in the 1920s and 30s. Apparently it was quite the cosmopolitan place. The extremism, the Taliban and all of that really only came when the Russians tried to expand their borders and the US so awesomely helped out some blokes who wanted to stick it to the Soviets.

**Grey Templar**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
You can bridge political gaps and change them through education. But ethnicity and religion?

Yes, you can.

But it takes the sort of act that even Putin would balk at.

And the Prima-noctum jokes begin.

**BaronIveagh**

Grey Templar wrote:

And the Prima-noctum jokes begin.

Some of us don't find very much to laugh at about it.

Anthropologists are still trying to work out just how many children the US and Canada killed, because they mattered so little they didn't even count them, let alone mark all the graves.

**KamikazeCanuck**

....way to suck all the fun out of this ISIS Terrorism thread.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Jihadin wrote:
Re-open the Gula...eerrr Education Camp....errrrrr....Transition Facilities

Freedom Centres.

**Orlanth**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We (Britain) are not an Imperial power anymore. We should stop acting like one.

Funny how that one gets trotted out specifically with regards to the British.

Who should be acting like an 'Imperial power' then? Turkey? France? Israel? US? Russia?

**Iron_Captain**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

That sounds better than the current US strategy. But the Soviet Union tried much the same thing in Afghanistan, and it failed, because the Afghans just never stopped fighting, no matter how many of them were killed. The USSR was very aggressive and racked up a huge kill count, and it spend billions of rubles on building a sustainable Afghan government according to Communist ideals and values, but there were always more insurgents, and after the Red Army left, they quickly overwhelmed the Afghan government. That is a big difference with Germany and Japan. In Germany and Japan, people were tired of war. They just gave up and stopped fighting. I don't see this happening in Afghanistan. No matter how much are killed, people still continue to head to the mountains to join insurgent groups.
Germany and Japan were radically different societies. They had strong central governments, and the only divisions there were political rather than ethnical/religious/tribal. You can bridge political gaps and change them through education. But ethnicity and religion?
I think if you want to build a new Afghan civilisation, it would not be possible without completely destroying the old one first. Is anyone willing to do that? Would it be a good thing to do?

I think looking at the USSR's involvement in Afghanistan isn't quite right... If you can, look up pictures of Afghanistan in the 1920s and 30s. Apparently it was quite the cosmopolitan place. The extremism, the Taliban and all of that really only came when the Russians tried to expand their borders and the US so awesomely helped out some blokes who wanted to stick it to the Soviets.

The Russians did not try to expand their borders into Afghanistan (well, not since 1917 and the fall of the Empire at least), and neither did the Soviets. The Soviets invaded in an attempt to keep the Afghan government (which was a Soviet ally) in power. There was already more than enough extremism before the Soviets, altough it only got religious when the atheist Soviets invaded. So yeah, while Afghanistan was already a mess before, the US and Soviet Union can be blamed for igniting the gunpowder barrel that is islamic extremism. Which is also why I think the West and Russia have a moral obligation to do something about it. The question is: What? What can we do that won't actually make things worse like any previous thing we did?

Also, Turkish troops apparently have been sighted near Mosul:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-04/1200-turkish-troops-said-invade-iraq-near-mosul
https://www.rt.com/news/324787-turkish-troops-deployed-iraq/
The Iraqis are pretty pissed.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, Turkish troops apparently have been sighted near Mosul:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-04/1200-turkish-troops-said-invade-iraq-near-mosul
https://www.rt.com/news/324787-turkish-troops-deployed-iraq/
The Iraqis are pretty pissed.

Without reading either of those articles, my only reaction toward Iraq is... So??? Don't like it, do something about it.

**Ouze**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, Turkish troops apparently have been sighted near Mosul:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-04/1200-turkish-troops-said-invade-iraq-near-mosul
https://www.rt.com/news/324787-turkish-troops-deployed-iraq/
The Iraqis are pretty pissed.

Without reading either of those articles, my only reaction toward Iraq is... So??? Don't like it, do something about it.

My understanding is the appropriate thing to have done would have been to have attacked them approximately 17 seconds after they entered the country.

**Freakazoitt**

Russia confirmed they bombed Turkish truck "humanitarian" convoy. In a telecast showed that these trucks transported the food aid and on a some route point them loaded ammunitions and the weapons for turkemans and Nusra front.

**BlaxicanX**

Why do people like to pretend that the state of post-WW2 Germany and Japan is at all analogous to terrorist-states?

The German populace in Nazi Germany didn't wake up in the morning genuinely believing that death on the battlefield would grant them eternal life in heaven. Japanese-American citizens who'd been born and raised in America their entire lives weren't gunning down American hotel residents as part of some spiritual war.

The mindset of these people is completely different, and it's been proven both in the War on Terror and in Russia's merciless campaign in Afghanistan that radical muslims simply don't give a gak about death, nor the death toll. The only thing an extended occupation in these countries is going to do is embolden the sympathizers already living in the West to commit attacks and propagate a new generation of people who've grown up their entire lives hating the "Western Imperialists".

**Freakazoitt**

Why do people like to pretend that the state of post-WW2 Germany and Japan is at all analogous to terrorist-states?

What???

**BlaxicanX**

Sorry. That wasn't aimed at you.

**LethalShade**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Why do people like to pretend that the state of post-WW2 Germany and Japan is at all analogous to terrorist-states?

The German populace in Nazi Germany didn't wake up in the morning genuinely believing that death on the battlefield would grant them eternal life in heaven. Japanese-American citizens who'd been born and raised in America their entire lives weren't gunning down American hotel residents as part of some spiritual war.

The mindset of these people is completely different, and it's been proven both in the War on Terror and in Russia's merciless campaign in Afghanistan that radical muslims simply don't give a gak about death, nor the death toll. The only thing an extended occupation in these countries is going to do is embolden the sympathizers already living in the West to commit attacks and propagate a new generation of people who've grown up their entire lives hating the "Western Imperialists".

So, what can we do about them ? Not much, I fear.

**Kilkrazy**

My proposal is a "police operation" consisting of a multi-national effort incorporating as many regional powers as possible. This closes the ISIL borders, and sweeps the area with heavy forces supported by air power. The objective will be to kill or capture as many fighters as possible, destroy all their military equipment, and sweep up intelligence for further analysis.

This should be done quickly, then we go home and analyse the intelligence.

Insurgents can't attack an occupying force if there isn't one there.

However, there isn't any point doing anything if we don't address the genuine social problems at home, that lead muslim youths to become disaffected, and we obviously also need to stamp out the rich Wahhabi support for ISIL and extremist Wahhabism around the world.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

However, there isn't any point doing anything if we don't address the genuine social problems at home, that lead muslim youths to become disaffected, and we obviously also need to stamp out the rich Wahhabi support for ISIL and extremist Wahhabism around the world.

The West stamp out Wahhabi support?

Picture the scene:

David Cameron: We must stamp this out.

Saudi Arabia/Gulf States: We'd like to buy some military equipment from the UK, say, billions of pounds worth...

David Cameron: Hard working families, EU negotiations, hard working families...

Kilkrazy, please tell me you're not that naïve

**LethalShade**

He said "We need to" not "We will".

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Saudi Arabia 'destabilising Arab world', German intelligence warns
It is unusual for the BND spy agency to publicly release such a blunt assessment on a country that is considered an ally of the West. Germany has long-standing political and economic ties with Saudi Arabia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/12029546/Saudi-Arabia-destabilising-Arab-world-German-intelligence-warns.html

So...the German intelligence service goes off script and publicly disses Saudi Arabia. The German governemnt is not happy.

**BaronIveagh**

BlaxicanX wrote:

The German populace in Nazi Germany didn't wake up in the morning genuinely believing that death on the battlefield would grant them eternal life in heaven. Japanese-American citizens who'd been born and raised in America their entire lives weren't gunning down American hotel residents as part of some spiritual war.

The communication technology of the day was not yet evolved enough that 'self radicalization' was a thing. The enemy's propaganda didn't get a lot of time on the newsreels in the US.

However, as examples of nations indoctrinated into a belief structure that encouraged behavior that most other nations considered barbaric, they do stand out as examples of successful 'deprogramming'.

**Experiment 626**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Saudi Arabia 'destabilising Arab world', German intelligence warns
It is unusual for the BND spy agency to publicly release such a blunt assessment on a country that is considered an ally of the West. Germany has long-standing political and economic ties with Saudi Arabia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/12029546/Saudi-Arabia-destabilising-Arab-world-German-intelligence-warns.html

So...the German intelligence service goes off script and publicly disses Saudi Arabia. The German governemnt is not happy.

Well, good for German intelligence for growing a pair and pointing out the bald faced truth instead of hiding behind progressive platitudes.

Just look at how the Saudi's are intentionally

ing up the world economy by flooding world markets with cheap oil, in an effort to stamp out every other non-Arab OPEC nation's energy sectors...

I can see it happening that eventually, if Islamic State is allowed to grow, the Saudi's will enventually throw off their veiled 'alliance' with western democracies and launch an all out war of conquest across north Africa, the ME, parts of Asia and mainland Europe.
Helped in large part by the fact that we stupidly continue to allow them export and finance their barbaric medieval ideologies across most of the world.

**Kilkrazy**

I think the role of WW1 in setting up Germany to get itself into WW2, and the amount of social turmoil that was going on in Europe in the early 20th century that contributed to it, needs to be taken into account.

As for 'deprogramming', that was made much easier by the fact that Germany and Japan were completely crushed by the Allied victories. It was obvious to the population that their leaders had completely failed.

The Ayatollah Khomeini managed to radicalise Iran with cassette tapes during the 1970s.

**BaronIveagh**

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35012902

Iraq is demanding Turkey withdraw troops from inside Iraq.

**Kilkrazy**

Turkey has troops inside Iraq?

Boggle.

How did they get there?