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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That runs into the issue of proving that they've actually done something that falls under crimes against humanity. The Nazis documented everything meticulously, ISIS probably doesn't.

They seem to love posting on social media. Videos of executions, admission of forcing women into slavery, etc...

If signing some requisition paperwork for supplies, that happen to be for a concentration camp, is enough to get someone executed for genocide then surely being an admitted participating member of a group that executes people left and right while forcing others into slavery would also count for something. And yes, many Nazis who were really nothing more than secretaries got hanged because they worked at a camp, even though the only thing they did was work on logistics and never did anything directly involved.

Clearly Crimes against Humanity doesn't need you to actually be the one who swung the executioners sword, or actually committed the rape. You just had to be present and go along with it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That runs into the issue of proving that they've actually done something that falls under crimes against humanity. The Nazis documented everything meticulously, ISIS probably doesn't.

They seem to love posting on social media. Videos of executions, admission of forcing women into slavery, etc...

If signing some requisition paperwork for supplies, that happen to be for a concentration camp, is enough to get someone executed for genocide then surely being an admitted participating member of a group that executes people left and right while forcing others into slavery would also count for something.

Even if not direct. You provided material, logistical or operational support to enable the crime to be committed.
We Chan charge you with enabling a war crime.

And wr can still jail you if not hangs you.
If we want you dead, exraditr you.
Syria and Iraq are not soft and cuddly on terror charges.

Indeed. If you were at all affiliated with ISIS as a participating member, you are just as guilty of their crimes as any other member. Otherwise, everybody in Europe and America would have to admit that many Nazis at Nuremburg were wrongfully convicted and executed. Same standards people.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That runs into the issue of proving that they've actually done something that falls under crimes against humanity. The Nazis documented everything meticulously, ISIS probably doesn't.

They seem to love posting on social media. Videos of executions, admission of forcing women into slavery, etc...

If signing some requisition paperwork for supplies, that happen to be for a concentration camp, is enough to get someone executed for genocide then surely being an admitted participating member of a group that executes people left and right while forcing others into slavery would also count for something. And yes, many Nazis who were really nothing more than secretaries got hanged because they worked at a camp, even though the only thing they did was work on logistics and never did anything directly involved.

Clearly Crimes against Humanity doesn't need you to actually be the one who swung the executioners sword, or actually committed the rape. You just had to be present and go along with it.

So now all you need to do is prove these people were present at the executions. Please dazzle us with your evidence that was apparently overlooked by the Swedish security forces.

Sure, they could be rounded up and sent back to face the Kurds, Yazidis or any number of groups. But we have laws that state we can't extradite people that might face the death penalty, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they'd get no matter if they actually did anything or not.

And taking away someone's citizenship is damn hard. Joining the Caliphate and serving with ISIS could apply (taking another nationality and joining a foreign military) but exactly zero nations have acknowledge ISIS as a state so there's no military to join either.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ ATCM

I'm wondering if they even know they're back? And let's hope they don't do anything whilst 'under surveillance', like too many have done before.

Considering a swedish newspaper was able to get in contact with them and they were being denied jobs because their employers knew who they were as their pictures were released, I think that it is a certainty that the Swedish police and counter-terrorism forces know these people are in Sweden.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That runs into the issue of proving that they've actually done something that falls under crimes against humanity. The Nazis documented everything meticulously, ISIS probably doesn't.

They seem to love posting on social media. Videos of executions, admission of forcing women into slavery, etc...

If signing some requisition paperwork for supplies, that happen to be for a concentration camp, is enough to get someone executed for genocide then surely being an admitted participating member of a group that executes people left and right while forcing others into slavery would also count for something. And yes, many Nazis who were really nothing more than secretaries got hanged because they worked at a camp, even though the only thing they did was work on logistics and never did anything directly involved.

Clearly Crimes against Humanity doesn't need you to actually be the one who swung the executioners sword, or actually committed the rape. You just had to be present and go along with it.

So now all you need to do is prove these people were present at the executions. Please dazzle us with your evidence that was apparently overlooked by the Swedish security forces.

Their presence at the Executions isn't necessary. Not if we're using the same standards as the Nuremburg trials, the Nazi clerks were convicted simply because they worked at the camp and were aware of what happened there. They simply need to have approved of them by being an active member of the organization somewhere. Which they have already admitted to. There is pretty much a direct equivalency here.

Maybe they don't get executed, but they at the very least should spend the rest of their miserable life behind bars.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That runs into the issue of proving that they've actually done something that falls under crimes against humanity. The Nazis documented everything meticulously, ISIS probably doesn't.

They seem to love posting on social media. Videos of executions, admission of forcing women into slavery, etc...

If signing some requisition paperwork for supplies, that happen to be for a concentration camp, is enough to get someone executed for genocide then surely being an admitted participating member of a group that executes people left and right while forcing others into slavery would also count for something. And yes, many Nazis who were really nothing more than secretaries got hanged because they worked at a camp, even though the only thing they did was work on logistics and never did anything directly involved.

Clearly Crimes against Humanity doesn't need you to actually be the one who swung the executioners sword, or actually committed the rape. You just had to be present and go along with it.

So now all you need to do is prove these people were present at the executions. Please dazzle us with your evidence that was apparently overlooked by the Swedish security forces.

Their presence at the Executions isn't necessary. Not if we're using the same standards as the Nuremburg trials, the Nazi clerks were convicted simply because they worked at the camp and were aware of what happened there. They simply need to have approved of them by being an active member of the organization somewhere. Which they have already admitted to. There is pretty much a direct equivalency here.

Maybe they don't get executed, but they at the very least should spend the rest of their miserable life behind bars.

Except those secretaries were actively working at the camps or within their supply lines. We didn't hold SS troops who only took part in training accountable for the war crimes of the Nazis.

The security services knew others who went on to kill on the streets. No way in hell should they be allowed anywhere. If just one of them kills just one innocent person then...was it worth it?

I've no sympathy for any of them. When you joined ISIS you left humanity as far as I'm concerned. And let's face it. They're only back because they were beaten. If things had gone differently they'd still be over there carrying out their depravity.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The security services knew others who went on to kill on the streets. No way in hell should they be allowed anywhere. If just one of them kills just one innocent person then...was it worth it?

I've no sympathy for any of them. When you joined ISIS you left humanity as far as I'm concerned. And let's face it. They're only back because they were beaten. If things had gone differently they'd still be over there carrying out their depravity.

Except we in this thread do not have any information that many of these people were ever part of ISIS or when they left if they were.

It's very scary hearing "People who left to join ISIS are back in the country". But leaving to join and actually joining are not the same thing. It is possible (and I would even say likely in many cases) that people leave to go join their jihad full of fire and passion, get stuck at the border of Turkey for weeks or wander aimlessly trying to find someone to take them to ISIS and then give up.

Yes there were people known to security forces who did carry out attacks. And there were also countless people who did not travel to join ISIS who carried out terror attacks. If anything ISIS is less likely to use someone who travelled to Syria to join them to carry out an attack as doing so immediately flags that person up for all the counter-terrorism agencies in Europe.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It's very scary hearing "People who left to join ISIS are back in the country". But leaving to join and actually joining are not the same thing. It is possible (and I would even say likely in many cases) that people leave to go join their jihad full of fire and passion, get stuck at the border of Turkey for weeks or wander aimlessly trying to find someone to take them to ISIS and then give up.

And...what, that's supposed to make it alright is it? A combination of incompetence and/or bad luck makes it OK then?

Their intention was to join ISIS and engage in all of their depravity. That's enough for me.

I'm not inclined to forgive anyone who left Europe with the intention of joining ISIS, even if they did fail to get there. They're already radicalised, they already made their bed. So let them fething lie in it.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It's very scary hearing "People who left to join ISIS are back in the country". But leaving to join and actually joining are not the same thing. It is possible (and I would even say likely in many cases) that people leave to go join their jihad full of fire and passion, get stuck at the border of Turkey for weeks or wander aimlessly trying to find someone to take them to ISIS and then give up.

And...what, that's supposed to make it alright is it? A combination of incompetence and/or bad luck makes it OK then?

Their intention was to join ISIS and engage in all of their depravity. That's enough for me.

Intent is ernough to distrust at the very least.
They believed this hate enough to join up and enlist.
To travel to the country.

They where not just posting abit of stiff on facebook.
They had will to follow through.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It's very scary hearing "People who left to join ISIS are back in the country". But leaving to join and actually joining are not the same thing. It is possible (and I would even say likely in many cases) that people leave to go join their jihad full of fire and passion, get stuck at the border of Turkey for weeks or wander aimlessly trying to find someone to take them to ISIS and then give up.

And...what, that's supposed to make it alright is it? A combination of incompetence and/or bad luck makes it OK then?

Their intention was to join ISIS and engage in all of their depravity. That's enough for me.

I'm saying that thinking about and even taking some actions intending to do something is very different to actually succeeding in doing it and should be treated as such.

@ A Town Called Malus

What do you want to do with them then?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It's very scary hearing "People who left to join ISIS are back in the country". But leaving to join and actually joining are not the same thing. It is possible (and I would even say likely in many cases) that people leave to go join their jihad full of fire and passion, get stuck at the border of Turkey for weeks or wander aimlessly trying to find someone to take them to ISIS and then give up.

And...what, that's supposed to make it alright is it? A combination of incompetence and/or bad luck makes it OK then?

Their intention was to join ISIS and engage in all of their depravity. That's enough for me.

I'm saying that thinking about and even taking some actions intending to do something is very different to actually succeeding in doing it and should be treated as such.

So if someone shoots at somebody with the intent to kill, but fails to hit them, they shouldn't be charged with a crime?

Good to know you can only be held responsible for crimes if you succeed.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It's very scary hearing "People who left to join ISIS are back in the country". But leaving to join and actually joining are not the same thing. It is possible (and I would even say likely in many cases) that people leave to go join their jihad full of fire and passion, get stuck at the border of Turkey for weeks or wander aimlessly trying to find someone to take them to ISIS and then give up.

And...what, that's supposed to make it alright is it? A combination of incompetence and/or bad luck makes it OK then?

Their intention was to join ISIS and engage in all of their depravity. That's enough for me.

I'm saying that thinking about and even taking some actions intending to do something is very different to actually succeeding in doing it and should be treated as such.

So if someone shoots at somebody with the intent to kill, but fails to hit them, they shouldn't be charged with a crime?

Good to know you can only be held responsible for crimes if you succeed.

Attempted murder is different than murder.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ A Town Called Malus

What do you want to do with them then?

If there is no evidence they have committed crimes, let them in and keep them under strict surveillance. If there is evidence of them committing crimes then seek to incarcerate through what means we have. Sending them to Assad's government in Syria is not an option as to do so is to send them to sure torture and death, both of which are against the principles we as a country are meant to strive to uphold, no matter the crimes carried out.

I don't know enough about the Iraqi government to comment on sending people back to there.

Not according to Town called Malus.

Apparently actively being a participant of an organization that committee crimes against humanity doesn't count as doing anything.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Aw I'm sick to my stomach of this. How the hell did they get back in, and having got back in, why are they now being allowed to wonder around at their own free will?

I have a job for them, explosive testing specialist or alternatively porcine food product delivery vehicle.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not according to Town called Malus.

Apparently actively being a participant of an organization that committee crimes against humanity doesn't count as doing anything.

Don't put words in my mouth, thank you very much. What I actually said was that merely being a part of an organisation (or merely intending to join an organisation but never actually succeeding) does not make you culpable for every crime committed by that organisation.

Otherwise everyone who ever worked for any drug dealing operation could be charged for the murders committed by every member of said organisation, whether it happened whilst they were a part of it or were involved in said murders in any way.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ A Town Called Malus

What do you want to do with them then?

If there is no evidence they have committed crimes, let them in and keep them under strict surveillance. If there is evidence of them committing crimes then seek to incarcerate through what means we have. Sending them to Assad's government in Syria is not an option as to do so is to send them to sure torture and death, both of which are against the principles we as a country are meant to strive to uphold, no matter the crimes carried out.

I don't know enough about the Iraqi government to comment on sending people back to there.

But they HAVE committed crimes. Leaving Europe to join ISIS is a crime in itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It's very scary hearing "People who left to join ISIS are back in the country". But leaving to join and actually joining are not the same thing. It is possible (and I would even say likely in many cases) that people leave to go join their jihad full of fire and passion, get stuck at the border of Turkey for weeks or wander aimlessly trying to find someone to take them to ISIS and then give up.

And...what, that's supposed to make it alright is it? A combination of incompetence and/or bad luck makes it OK then?

Their intention was to join ISIS and engage in all of their depravity. That's enough for me.

I'm saying that thinking about and even taking some actions intending to do something is very different to actually succeeding in doing it and should be treated as such.

So if someone shoots at somebody with the intent to kill, but fails to hit them, they shouldn't be charged with a crime?

Good to know you can only be held responsible for crimes if you succeed.

Attempted murder is different than murder.

Still a crime.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not according to Town called Malus.

Apparently actively being a participant of an organization that committee crimes against humanity doesn't count as doing anything.

Don't put words in my mouth, thank you very much. What I actually said was that merely being a part of an organisation (or merely intending to join an organisation but never actually succeeding) does not make you culpable for every crime committed by that organisation.

No, but being a member of such an organisation is a crime in itself.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not according to Town called Malus.

Apparently actively being a participant of an organization that committee crimes against humanity doesn't count as doing anything.

Don't put words in my mouth, thank you very much. What I actually said was that merely being a part of an organisation (or merely intending to join an organisation but never actually succeeding) does not make you culpable for every crime committed by that organisation.

As already mentioned, joining or attempting to join ISIS is a crime itself. These weren't dudes who just attempted either. These were guys who actually did succeed. They have Facebook photos of them among other ISIS members. This means they were in proximity to all the awful things ISIS was doing.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

But they HAVE committed crimes. Leaving Europe to join ISIS is a crime in itself.

And if they have broken UK law then they can be incarcerated here.

@ A Town Called Malus

If there is no evidence they have committed crimes, let them in and keep them under strict surveillance

Absolutely not. No way would I give any of them the opportunity to just pretend nothing happened and then let them out free on the streets to carry out a car and knife attack if and whenever they feel like it. I wouldn't risk sacrificing one drop of innocent blood just to appease the bleeding hearts.

Sending them to Assad's government in Syria is not an option as to do so is to send them to sure torture and death, both of which are against the principles we as a country are meant to strive to uphold, no matter the crimes carried out.

It should be an option. Even if we don't send them back there, we should have the right to throw them out. They made the choice, so they can deal with it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

But they HAVE committed crimes. Leaving Europe to join ISIS is a crime in itself.

And if they have broken UK law then they can be incarcerated here.

Aye, and they should also be tried for crimes against humanity, not just breaking a specific country's laws, because of what ISIS did.

If we could hang secretaries for filling out paper work while working at a concentration camp, we can put people on trial for crimes we know they were in proximity to while they were willing supporters of ISIS.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ A Town Called Malus

If there is no evidence they have committed crimes, let them in and keep them under strict surveillance

Absolutely not. No way would I give any of them the opportunity to just pretend nothing happened and then let them out free on the streets to carry out a car and knife attack If and whenever they feel like it. I wouldn't risk sacrificing one drop of innocent blood just to appease the bleeding hearts.

Sending them to Assad's government in Syria is not an option as to do so is to send them to sure torture and death, both of which are against the principles we as a country are meant to strive to uphold, no matter the crimes carried out.

It should be an option. Even if we don't send them back there, we should have the right to throw them out. They made the choice, so they can deal with it.

These people are UK/Swedish/etc. citizens by law. That gives them the right to return to the UK/Sweden/etc. If they choose to do so then we have the right to hold them accountable to UK/Swedish/etc. law. Those laws prohibit handing them over to other countries if there is the possibility of torture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

But they HAVE committed crimes. Leaving Europe to join ISIS is a crime in itself.

And if they have broken UK law then they can be incarcerated here.

Aye, and they should also be tried for crimes against humanity, not just breaking a specific country's laws, because of what ISIS did.

If we could hang secretaries for filling out paper work while working at a concentration camp, we can put people on trial for crimes we know they were in proximity to while they were willing supporters of ISIS.

*Sigh* Can I have a source for these secretaries hanged after the Nuremburg trials, what crimes they were accused of and what evidence was provided?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
These people are UK/Swedish/etc. citizens by law. That gives them the right to return to the UK/Sweden/etc. If they choose to do so then we have the right to hold them accountable to UK/Swedish/etc. law. Those laws prohibit handing them over to other countries if there is the possibility of torture.

Blair didn't let that stop his government.

Those laws need changing.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Those laws need changing.

Then take it up with the UN and the international community who don't like having stateless people running around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
These people are UK/Swedish/etc. citizens by law. That gives them the right to return to the UK/Sweden/etc. If they choose to do so then we have the right to hold them accountable to UK/Swedish/etc. law. Those laws prohibit handing them over to other countries if there is the possibility of torture.

Blair didn't let that stop his government.

Just because Blair is a moron does not mean we should revert back to it now.