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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
You really think that should be allowed then? Do you really think that the gamers are bad? I post evidence of someone attacking a teenage girl from the anti-gamer gate side, And yet you have said multiple times that the gamers are also doing this?

Seriously, man, what the hell are you talking about? Some guy thought a teenage girl was an adult man, he said crap to her, then was proven wrong. Does that mean “Gamers are perfect little angels because someone was stupid”? What the hell is your reasoning here? Beside, does it look like Peregrine, Ashiraya or me are “anti-gamers”? I am pretty sure we all play games, and all qualify as gamers, you know…

What is your reasoning then! You think that is fine? He was shown before. He was reacting to #notyourshield and say everyone was a sockpuppet and the girl responded with a picture first. And he said. She was a sockpuppet, she posted another picture with her with a frowny face and a picture with the date and hashtags and question marks. You have only shown yourselves to be opposition you can criticize, but if you do not bring meaningful discussion to this thread, or sharing of information that is relevant to the gamergate issue, then don't come onto this thread.

Do not come onto this thread and say you are wrong because of this!

You can say. "You are assuming, lets look at the facts." And discuss it like adults.

That goes for everyone. Including myself.

This as I have said many times. Is a complicated issue.

Gamergate once started out with corruption but has since evolved to be more broader, to encompase the problem of harassment and the ever growing social justice warriors who want to take away a hobby because they see it as a male dominanted form and think that is wrong. And that it should be given to women, and that they need to go from atheism and into games and say you can't do that.

And enforce political correctness into everything.

Jesus this subject is hurting my head...

But...

 Asherian Command wrote:

And enforce political correctness into everything.

Keep on fighting the good fight Ash!

As an aside, I'm actually really grateful for ZQ. Her actions indirectly led to investigation into the tangled web of games journalism, exposed some of its corruption, and uncovered the rot in parts of the indie scene. Not to mention her tweets, Tumblr posts and Cracked article fan the flames when they appear to be dying.

I'd totally buy her a beer. She'd throw it in my face, but I'd still do it.

 daedalus wrote:
I'm gonna unsubscribe this thread, go outside and smoke my pipe and drink a beer and look at the stars and think about how awesome it would be if we were building the spaceships that we might be if we weren't so incensed about what the moron next in line in the circlejerk was saying on some overrated website.

Enjoy your beer and smoke, but I'm pretty sure NASA isn't embroiled in this. Pretty sure

 whembly wrote:
Jesus this subject is hurting my head...

But...

 Asherian Command wrote:

And enforce political correctness into everything.

Keep on fighting the good fight Ash!

Well I don't think everything has to be politically correct. It is sort of a form of censorship. People are perfect. just because one thing in a game is not politically correct does not make it a terrible game.

If a book had been censored because it uses the wrong term. I think we can safely say its no that big of a deal.

Okay I am going to act like a SJW for this portion of this thread. Getting insulted by everything people post.

"Yeah I like the color black."
Me: Well your racist, what about other colors. What do you think they feel. You can't just like black, because all the colors of the rainbow are just the same thing just different shades of color.
"But black is the absence of color."
ME: Now your just a colorist!

That is the SJW argument in a nut shell.

 Asherian Command wrote:
It does it shows they are unprofessional and that is a breach of ethics in journalism.

Well yeah they're unprofessional, but how exactly is this news? Everyone knows the game journalism industry is hardly the New York Times in professionalism, they're a bunch of bloggers and magazine writers who think that games are cool and found a way to get paid to talk about their hobby. Participating in twitter drama is hardly unexpected.

We give these people power and what do they do with it.

Err, lol? What power did we give them? I can't see any power that they have over me, I might read their articles if they have something interesting to say but if they don't I'll be quite happy to just ignore them and never notice their absence.

This drama started up because of censorship, there is corruption in game journalism, there is censorship of legitmate criticism, taking down peoples videos because they don't agree with you and happen to dislike your game. Even though they are covered under fair use to use that image, under law.

And abuse of the copyright reporting system is an issue that deserves attention (but hardly one that is unique to this situation), but you still haven't figured out how to talk about the issues instead of just posting more twitter drama.

Have you forgotten that both sides are human beings? That both sides have opinions? And in this case. One side the anti-gamer gaters are completely wrong on the subject? While gamer gaters thus far have had the only valid complaints other than you are being mean!

No, I know that both sides have opinions, and I've already stated that there are legitimate issues for the gaming community to complain about (though the outrage is vastly disproportionate to the offense). But these few legitimate issues are being ignored in favor of more twitter drama and ridiculous complaints about how SJWs want to destroy gaming.

This is your problem peregrine, manchu everyone who is attacking the gamers.

You do realize that I'm also a gamer, right? Just like many of the "SJWs" you love to criticize? You don't represent the entire gaming community.

But these few legitimate issues are being ignored in favor of more twitter drama and ridiculous complaints about how SJWs want to destroy gaming.

Then raise them instead of ignoring the issue.

Just like many of the "SJWs" you love to criticize? You don't represent the entire gaming community.

Sadly you are wrong on this issue.

Antia one of the critics in this does not play video games. She only criticizes games. She does not play them.

 Asherian Command wrote:
It does it shows they are unprofessional and that is a breach of ethics in journalism.

Is that guy even a journalist? I never heard of him. Give context when you post that kind of stuff.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You can criticize, but you can't harass people that trust and look up to you. That is wrong!

Yeah, he said so himself .

 Asherian Command wrote:
We give these people power and what do they do with it. They attack us, they post articles about us being misogynists!

I do not feel attacked by those articles. Mainly because I do not read them. But even then, who are going to read them, apart gamers that already have a strong opinion about gamers because… well, they play games together?

 CatharsisX wrote:
I'm sorry, I cant hear you over the email I'm writing to their advertisers

Damn, you must hit those keys quite hard to make that much noise writing an email .

 Asherian Command wrote:
What is your reasoning then! You think that is fine?

I think this is a non-event. I think this is relevant, though. But for some reason, nobody is speaking about it.
Do you see why one would be relevant and not the other?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Gamergate once started out with corruption but has since evolved to be more broader, to encompase the problem of harassment and the ever growing social justice warriors who want to take away a hobby because they see it as a male dominanted form and think that is wrong.

No it hasn't, and no they don't want that. And more importantly, they couldn't if they wanted to.

Also, the use of terms such as SJW is prohibited outside of the bounds of 4chan, and as such you will be demoted to the "barely relevant" status level. Please remember that the use of terms such as "censorship" or "freedom of expression", in reference to such a ridiculous topic, is further punishable by testicular flogging. Have a good day, citizen!

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well I don't think everything has to be politically correct. It is sort of a form of censorship.

No it isn't. A for-profit business deciding to make a change that they believe will increase profit is not censorship. You are still free to say all of those "un-PC" things without any fear of punishment, you just don't have an automatic right to have everyone else help you say them.

"Yeah I like the color black."
Me: Well your racist, what about other colors. What do you think they feel. You can't just like black, because all the colors of the rainbow are just the same thing just different shades of color.
"But black is the absence of color."
ME: Now your just a colorist!

That is the SJW argument in a nut shell.

No, that's a bizarre straw man of a "SJW" argument that you've invented yourself. If you genuinely think it's an accurate representation and aren't just trying to win a forum argument then you really need to go back and learn what the people you're arguing against are actually saying before you try to criticize them.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Gamergate once started out with corruption but has since evolved to be more broader, to encompase the problem of harassment and the ever growing social justice warriors who want to take away a hobby because they see it as a male dominanted form and think that is wrong. And that it should be given to women, and that they need to go from atheism and into games and say you can't do that.

This is absolutely wrong. Many/most of the people criticizing sexism in games are gamers who enjoy playing games and want them to improve, and none of the things they're asking for would ruin games. Changing the gender of the main character isn't going to suddenly change the gameplay of a deathmatch FPS, putting a female character in sensible armor instead of a chainmail bikini doesn't ruin the story of an RPG, etc. The only people talking about wanting to destroy gaming because it's something men like are right-wing anti-feminists who don't care about gaming beyond its usefulness in attacking feminism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Then raise them instead of ignoring the issue.

I have commented on them, but every time I step away from this thread for a few minutes it's right back to twitter drama and complaining about SJWs.

Antia one of the critics in this does not play video games. She only criticizes games. She does not play them.

Oh FFS, do your research before posting. A quick google search for the original kickstarter shows this:

I love playing video games but I’m regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented.

And she's hardly the only person that has been saying those things. She just happened to start a project to bring that criticism to a larger audience and got a lot of attention because of it.

Peregine, it might interest you to read the interview with the developer who's did Mafia as well as Kingdom come deliverence. In it, he talks about people who insist he puts playable female characters for free into the game, despite the fact that this will cost him money for modelling and so on. I think that's one of the more interesting points about why this demand for female everything in games can be annoying to developers.

In the end, male/female? They're all bags of XP. I just don't think people should be forced to develop a male or female character just cause of very vocal demands

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And in response Kotaku bravely!

http://kotaku.com/bomb-threat-targeted-anita-sarkeesian-gaming-awards-la-1636032301?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Twitter&utm_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

Posted about an apparent bomb threat six months ago that obviously didn't happen.

"Oh crap! The narrative is shifting against us!"
"We need to report something - anything- that will divert attention away."
"Something with Anita in it!"
"Yes! What about that bomb threat from six months ago that amounted to nothing?"
"Yeah, let's go with that!"

They are soooooooooooooooooooo transparent.

 Peregrine wrote:


Oh FFS, do your research before posting. A quick google search for the original kickstarter shows this:

Says the guy who does no research and demands evidence for things that were posted on page one. But whatever continue.

Hey! Nvidia is a kotaku advertiser. Sure would be a shame if someone emailed them about how they think gamers are gak stains and that they are dying. Oops. Keep swinging champ.

Anyone wanting the contact info for the advertisers and links to example letters PM me, Im not going to even bother arguing with rape supporters anymore.

I would think most gaming related companies are Kotaku advertisers, considering it's you know...a gaming blog. It's a shame they chose to kill off gamers.

Sining wrote:
I would think most gaming related companies are Kotaku advertisers, considering it's you know...a gaming blog. It's a shame they chose to kill off gamers.

Bingo. Oh hey! Blizzard! Here's a few Emails coming for you.

Keep talking Peregrine, Im sure its interesting.

Sining wrote:
Peregine, it might interest you to read the interview with the developer who's did Mafia as well as Kingdom come deliverence. In it, he talks about people who insist he puts playable female characters for free into the game, despite the fact that this will cost him money for modelling and so on. I think that's one of the more interesting points about why this demand for female everything in games can be annoying to developers.

I really fail to see what the problem here is. Customers want more features for the same price. Game publishers want fewer features for the same price. Remember that we're talking about a for-profit business here, not some poor sympathetic individuals being forced to do something they don't want.

And hey, if it's such a burden they could always just skip making playable male characters to make up for it.

In the end, male/female? They're all bags of XP.

Ok, you don't care about this issue. Some people do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
Im not going to even bother arguing with rape supporters anymore.

Well, just when I think you couldn't do anything more to demolish your own credibility you post this...

They are soooooooooooooo transparent:




I mean really? Reading Dr. Sommers' replies to this have been quite amusing.

If their original vision is to have a male playable character, especially since the original brief on KS was that you played a MALE char, why should they have to change it? Just because some people want a female char for free and kick up a fuss when they don't get it? As the guy explained succinctly, things cost money. He was willing to put in a female character as a stretchgoal on that video game KS but people COMPLAINED that it was a stretchgoal and not included in the basic package.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They are soooooooooooooo transparent:

Yeah, it's so shocking that multiple sites would post about the same event. CONSPIRACIES.

Now let's move on to discussing who is behind the conspiracy: is it aliens trying to cover up the mind control in the chemtrails, or the NSA trying to distract us from who really did 9/11?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
If their original vision is to have a male playable character, especially since the original brief on KS was that you played a MALE char, why should they have to change it? Just because some people want a female char for free and kick up a fuss when they don't get it?

Well yes, that's generally why for-profit businesses add features to a product: because the customers want it, and they decide that the cost of adding it is less than the cost of lost sales if they don't add it.

He was willing to put in a female character as a stretchgoal on that video game KS but people COMPLAINED that it was a stretchgoal and not included in the basic package.

And how exactly is that news? Customers always want more, and they want it for free.

Why is it shocking? We all know they're pretty much just regurgitating the same news over and over again. It's a very sad state of affairs for them

You do realise it's a free stretchgoal don't you? Consumers ALREADY get it for free if it hits that goal and they buy the game

 Peregrine wrote:


I really fail to see what the problem here is.

That's cool, I'm emailing wal-mart while you argue impotently.

Sining wrote:
In the end, male/female? They're all bags of XP. I just don't think people should be forced to develop a male or female character just cause of very vocal demands

Sooo, if it is not important, why not make all character females? Then people will stop complaining, right?

 Peregrine wrote:
Now let's move on to discussing who is behind the conspiracy: is it aliens trying to cover up the mind control in the chemtrails, or the NSA trying to distract us from who really did 9/11?

Is it not the lizard people from the English royal family? Look it up!

Sining wrote:
Why is it shocking? We all know they're pretty much just regurgitating the same news over and over again. It's a very sad state of affairs for them

Well yes, that was kind of the point. Posting the same story in multiple places isn't proof of some evil conspiracy to destroy gamers, it's just more of the same low-content "journalism" we expect from the internet, where everyone just copy/pastes the same blog posts because writing your own content is hard.

You do realise it's a free stretchgoal don't you? Consumers ALREADY get it for free if it hits that goal and they buy the game

Key point: if it hits that goal. Of course customers want as much as possible in the basic package, while the company wants to put as much as possible into DLC/stretch goals/etc and get more money. This isn't some kind of censorship and oppression of poor game developers, it's just how things work with a for-profit business.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
That's cool, I'm emailing wal-mart while you argue impotently.

Do you know what is funny? Or sad, depending on the point of view? The fact you do imagine Peregrine gives a damn if Kotaku lives or die .

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
That's cool, I'm emailing wal-mart while you argue impotently.

And your emails are about as influential as my forum posts. Ooh, I'll even predict the form letter you're going to get in response:

"Dear valued customer:

We always want feedback and place a high priority on customer satisfaction. We will consider your input very carefully. Thank you for taking the time to contact us, and remember to always buy more stuff from your local store!

Sincerely,
Wal-Mart customer satisfaction team"

Meanwhile the advertising decisions will be made by someone who doesn't give a about your "controversy" and only looks at the cost of buying the ad space compared to the number of clicks it generates.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Sining wrote:
In the end, male/female? They're all bags of XP. I just don't think people should be forced to develop a male or female character just cause of very vocal demands

Sooo, if it is not important, why not make all character females? Then people will stop complaining, right?

What if people want to make male characters? Are you going to say 'No, you can not make male characters so that people will stop complaining?' I had no issues playing Oni, Tomb Raider, Mirror Edge just cause they had female characters as the playable chars. I'm not really sure why people; other than the creator or developer of the game who obviously have their own visions for the game, would insist NO, THE PC MUST BE THIS GENDER.

You do realise it's a free stretchgoal don't you? Consumers ALREADY get it for free if it hits that goal and they buy the game

Key point: if it hits that goal. Of course customers want as much as possible in the basic package, while the company wants to put as much as possible into DLC/stretch goals/etc and get more money. This isn't some kind of censorship and oppression of poor game developers, it's just how things work with a for-profit business.

Sining wrote:
What if people want to make male characters?

So apparently, it is relevant.

Sining wrote:
I had no issues playing Oni, Tomb Raider, Mirror Edge just cause they had female characters as the playable chars.

Yeah, you forgot to add Portal. Seriously, just compare the number of male versus female protagonists and tell me it is balanced…

Sining wrote:
I'm not really sure why people; other than the creator or developer of the game who obviously have their own visions for the game, would insist NO, THE PC MUST BE THIS GENDER.

Because that's what they want. Seriously, asking why customers want a company to give them what they want is like asking why water is wet. People demand a female PC for the same reason that people make 50-page hate threads on the official forum if a FPS doesn't include their favorite gun.

The issue here is that consumers are basically getting the thing for 'free' as it is, which is what Peregine is trying to argue about. They're not paying additional for it but there's also the fact that it DOES cost money to make a female PC which the developer needs to cover as well. This is about how ridiculous it is for certain parties to keep demanding MOAR MOAR MOAR

Sigh.

Once again, this is how a for-profit business works. The customers demand MOAR MOAR MOAR no matter how much the company gives them, the company demands LESS LESS LESS no matter how much they strip from the product to save money on development. These aren't poor oppressed artists being censored by the evil PC police, they're for-profit businesses facing the same demands and expenses that every other for-profit business has to deal with.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sooo, if it is not important, why not make all character females? Then people will stop complaining, right?

As long as it was a fun game, I'd play a game with only female characters.

In fact one of my favourite games has only female characters.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Sining wrote:
What if people want to make male characters?

So apparently, it is relevant.

Sining wrote:
I had no issues playing Oni, Tomb Raider, Mirror Edge just cause they had female characters as the playable chars.

Yeah, you forgot to add Portal. Seriously, just compare the number of male versus female protagonists and tell me it is balanced…

It's relevant to some people, just not me. I believe people should be able to make whatever character they want to make REGARDLESS of whatever % gender proportion there is. This isn't like some MMO or some D&D game where we can go 'oh no, we have too many fighters, we need healers /wizards etc etc etc'. There isn't a set quota on these things -_- If people want to make males, making them make females out of some twisted desire to have everything be equal is kinda screwed up

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
As long as it was a fun game, I'd play a game with only female characters.

It is pretty different when it is one game, and when it is a huge majority of games…

Sining wrote:
It's relevant to some people, just not me.

So, if you understand why it is relevant to people, you can therefore understand why some of them would like female character, no?