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 Yonan wrote:
Semantics. She's convincing them to change the product to suit her agenda. We don't want her to do that.

It's not semantics, it's a fundamental difference. Censorship is using government authority to impose change on someone against their will, and that is not what she is doing. Attempting to persuade someone to voluntarily change something, what she is actually doing, is not censorship because it is done voluntarily, not by force. The fact that the change is something you don't want to see is irrelevant. You're just two customers with opposing demands, not censor vs. innocent victim. If you don't want to have those products changed then vote with your wallet.

You do realize that PHBs often make very bad decisions and may think pandering to her will help them increase the female demographic when it's doubtful at best without realising it would seriously cut into their male demographic.

And your point is? That still doesn't make it censorship.

Just like the journalist sites are for-profit businesses but didn't realize that pandering to sarkeezian/quinn/anti-gamer/whatever it is will have a large impact on their profitability by driving away many of their main user base.

The final outcome on their profitability remains to be seen. And this is especially amusing because, if what Sarkeesian is doing is censorship, so is what you're doing here. You want the journalist sites to change their product to suit your agenda, and you're demanding that they do it. So are you going to admit that you're in favor of censorship?

Hey you all, strop trying to censor Peregrine. Because trying to make him change his mind is obviously the same as censorship, right?

 Yonan wrote:
She's convincing them to change the product to suit her agenda. We don't want her to do that.

I have no idea why you do not want her to do that, I certainly want her to succeed.

 Yonan wrote:
without realising it would seriously cut into their male demographic.

Are you basically saying that you would not buy a game with a non-sexualized female main character, and without the trope she listed in the video? Because as far as I can tell, that stopped approximately nobody from enjoying Portal.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But, as always, I'm a complete idiot for stepping into the ring with you Peregrine. You never change, never back down, and never ever listen to anything anyone says when they run counter to your cast-iron opinions. You are a wall - a big, strong, impenetrable wall. The good news is that walls are stuck being walls, and everyone can walk away.

*walks away*

So you're saying he is doing exactly what you are doing?

Do you consider this a problem?

 Peregrine wrote:


See, you're just missing the obvious explanation her: I never back down because I only post when I already know I'm right. And, in this case, I'm right.

I'm not sure if that's funny or sad.

 Peregrine wrote:
I see nothing in there that suggests that she wants government regulation of game content. And yes, that's what is required for it to be censorship. Simply persuading game developers to voluntarily change their products is not censorship.

Censorship isn't a government only thing. It is also mostly done by governments, but also by media outlets (google in China), educational institutions (book banning), any authorities in essence.

Censoring is 'the act of removing something considered offensive, immoral or harmful.' Such as, in the opinions of some, the Damsel in Distress trope

I read the middle article and I did think it was rather good. - The 'Dixie Kong' video is I think the only one of Anita's I actually watched and when I did, I did find her conclusions a bit off.

It was pretty much this bit.

"Dixie Kong is the feminine variant and love interest of Diddy Kong. Note the ponytail and hair ringlets, pink shirt, pink hat, earrings, and eyelashes all to distinguish her from her predecessor. Essentially Ms. Male Characters are feminized imitations or derivative copies of already established male characters. They exist only because of, and in relationship to, their male counterparts."

I found it particularly odd that she chose not to acknowledge the fact that Diddy Kong himself, is basically a variant of Donkey Kong. You could easily say:

"Diddy Kong is the younger, cooler variant and junior partner of Diddy Kong. Note the baseball cap, smaller body and t-shirt. Essentially Younger, Hipper Characters are imitations or derivative copies of already established older characters. They exist only because of, and in relationship to, their older counterparts."

I'd just chalk that whole thing down to, 'thats how making spin-off characters work.'


Now, on the other hand, when she was talking about the Bowser children. - What was it, something like 7 male kids, of various personalities, then the one token girl that was completely generic? - Plus the whole Smurfs thing.

It looked like she was making a pretty darn good point to me. However, despite these things I find are good points, I ended up coming away from the video feeling grumpy and irritated because of the points which are less good and, if I remember right, the conclusions that in all honesty, just seemed completely out there.

As a result, I came away from the video feeling quite defensive about the video with the sense of. "You're bad and you should feel bad for enjoying these games." So, I'm not going to be inclined to have any support towards her.


As for the journalism aspect. - That entire thing is just pants and although it seems that there genuinely was overlap with the Feminism in Gaming angle at say, maybe the first, I dunno, 4 hours after the story broke? I don't know the timeline that well. It's now certainly a completely parallel topic, that many Journalists seem to be talking about, in response to the Corruption Topic. - I believe the term in politics is 'Cross Talking?'

And it, also, is really pants.

However, it's working to at least some extent, as I've just posted, contributing to the discussion about Anita's videos.

 Compel wrote:

"Dixie Kong is the feminine variant and love interest of Diddy Kong. Note the ponytail and hair ringlets, pink shirt, pink hat, earrings, and eyelashes all to distinguish her from her predecessor. Essentially Ms. Male Characters are feminized imitations or derivative copies of already established male characters. They exist only because of, and in relationship to, their male counterparts."

I found it particularly odd that she chose not to acknowledge the fact that Diddy Kong himself, is basically a variant of Donkey Kong. You could easily say:

"Diddy Kong is the younger, cooler variant and junior partner of Diddy Kong. Note the baseball cap, smaller body and t-shirt. Essentially Younger, Hipper Characters are imitations or derivative copies of already established older characters. They exist only because of, and in relationship to, their older counterparts."

The thing is, the “Miss male character” stuff is much more frequent than the “Young older character” one. One was a common trend (not that much anymore), the other is pretty rare.

Maybe by a bit. - However, I'd say both are not particularly rare at all.

You all have my apologies for the dreadful sin I am about to commit.



I think the point I'm trying to make about that whole aspect, is both are just laziness and a easy thing to do for a risk-averse company.

Well, there are much more examples in the video game section of the second link than of the first link. Have you checked them?
(BANG! Counter-attack! Now you get to be the one stuck there )

*Enters*

Ugh. I guess I can't turn away from a train wreck.

 Peregrine wrote:

See, you're just missing the obvious explanation her: I never back down because I only post when I already know I'm right. And, in this case, I'm right.

Courtesy of The Cheshire Cat Studios, I present to you:

/v/ The Musical: I'll make a Journalist out of you!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Courtesy of The Cheshire Cat Studios, I present to you:

/v/ The Musical: I'll make a Journalist out of you!

Spoiler:

AS a singer it bugs me that he messed up certain pitches and rhythms but at the same time I see that all the time, and I agree with his assertion onto the subject.

And my god are people stilll resisting this?

That vid's amazing, thanks for sharing!

My favorite /v/ sings will always be this, however:

TB putting out a call for a discussion on this stuff:

Aight so, last few weeks I've been attempting to put together a round table podcast where industry folks could hash out what I believe are the core issues behind the controversy of late. Unfortunately the Brietbart email leak resulted in all my panelists backing out, so I'm back to square one. Now I could sit here sniping on Twitter at what I view as some of the ridiculous actions of the gaming press over the past few weeks but, similar to how Youtubers were willing to discuss their ethics when we came under fire for advertorial content, rather than circle our wagons and stick our fingers in our ears, I'd like to have a proper discussion and make some real progress. So I'm putting this out as a general call. If you are part of games media and would like to join a roundtable discussion that I can promise will be fair and equitable, email my PR guy with confirmed of who you are and what you do. I'm looking for people who are considered part of the "traditional" games press, I already have the Youtube side covered. His email address can be found on this page and his name is Cristian - http://bit.ly/1urAKlB - You are doing everyone a service by participating. Fail to do so and I cannot promise that I will not burst into song and nobody wants that. Nobody.

 Yonan wrote:
TB putting out a call for a discussion on this stuff:

Aight so, last few weeks I've been attempting to put together a round table podcast where industry folks could hash out what I believe are the core issues behind the controversy of late. Unfortunately the Brietbart email leak resulted in all my panelists backing out, so I'm back to square one. Now I could sit here sniping on Twitter at what I view as some of the ridiculous actions of the gaming press over the past few weeks but, similar to how Youtubers were willing to discuss their ethics when we came under fire for advertorial content, rather than circle our wagons and stick our fingers in our ears, I'd like to have a proper discussion and make some real progress. So I'm putting this out as a general call. If you are part of games media and would like to join a roundtable discussion that I can promise will be fair and equitable, email my PR guy with confirmed of who you are and what you do. I'm looking for people who are considered part of the "traditional" games press, I already have the Youtube side covered. His email address can be found on this page and his name is Cristian - http://bit.ly/1urAKlB - You are doing everyone a service by participating. Fail to do so and I cannot promise that I will not burst into song and nobody wants that. Nobody.

Really people pulled out because of the brietbart thing?

really?

Ha. oh well.

I'd love to see a round table with an actual feminist and Zoe Quinn at the same time so the former can show the latter her place.

The Factual Feminist on youtube has been pwning Zoe and Anita on a regular basis for months now.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Factual Feminist on youtube has been pwning Zoe and Anita on a regular basis for months now.

I hope she doesn't rely on a Twitter account then, after what happened to Thunderf00t.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Factual Feminist on youtube has been pwning Zoe and Anita on a regular basis for months now.

I hope she doesn't rely on a Twitter account then, after what happened to Thunderf00t.

Agreed. But knowing her crowd. I think they are trying XD

Also on the news.....
And oh dear god. REALLY?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/20/the-escapist-forums-brought-down-in-ddos-attack/

They are either incredibly dense or incredibly desperate, or both at this point.

Seriously, what the hell are they thinking?

 Slarg232 wrote:
They are either incredibly dense or incredibly desperate, or both at this point.

Seriously, what the hell are they thinking?

I don't know who did it. It is not anonomyous they would of left a call sigh. A reasonable hacker would of left a call sign that is. That is kind of their M.O.

So yeah. I doubt it was a gamer gater. Or a radical feminist. Well...... Maybe a rad femy seeing how they attack people.

There are several different people who could have done this:

1) Journalists; we cannot deny they have been mass censoring websites what with even 4Chan and Reddit being in the censoring crosshairs. Obviously I think they are the ones responsible.

2) Gamer Gater; with how many of them there are, it is fully possible (Though not probable) that someone thought to "Martyr" the Escapist.

3) Some group of donkey caves who just want to watch the world burn.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Factual Feminist on youtube has been pwning Zoe and Anita on a regular basis for months now.

You mean the right-wing nutcase with the "I don't play games or know anything about them, but let me tell you all about how feminists want to destroy them to punish men" video that was posted previously? That wasn't a "pwning", it was an embarrassing attempt to exploit the gaming community to support her anti-feminist crusade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I hope she doesn't rely on a Twitter account then, after what happened to Thunderf00t.

Is the gaming community really that desperate for people to join their cause that they'll defend Thunderf00t? Or are you just not familiar with his behavior in the atheist community?

 Peregrine wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Factual Feminist on youtube has been pwning Zoe and Anita on a regular basis for months now.

You mean the right-wing nutcase with the "I don't play games or know anything them, but let me tell you all about how feminists want to destroy them to punish men" video that was posted previously? That wasn't a "pwning", it was an embarrassing attempt to exploit the gaming community to support her anti-feminist crusade.

She had tons of credible sources. Antia did not. She has brought in a credible source. And you ignore it. You know what. If you really think you are so oh intelligent disprove everything she has. Make a seperate thread, but stop coming back here.

She is a feminist. She is more feminist than the 'feminists' under Antia.

edited by motyak

Though I do agree about Thunderf00t; the guy just seems slimey to me.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Factual Feminist on youtube has been pwning Zoe and Anita on a regular basis for months now.

I hope she doesn't rely on a Twitter account then, after what happened to Thunderf00t.

Agreed. But knowing her crowd. I think they are trying XD

Also on the news.....
And oh dear god. REALLY?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/20/the-escapist-forums-brought-down-in-ddos-attack/

War is Hell.

Edit: Wait, so this was the SJW side DDOSing the GamerGate side?

No more personal attacks, or else the thread will have go

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Factual Feminist on youtube has been pwning Zoe and Anita on a regular basis for months now.

I hope she doesn't rely on a Twitter account then, after what happened to Thunderf00t.

Agreed. But knowing her crowd. I think they are trying XD

Also on the news.....
And oh dear god. REALLY?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/20/the-escapist-forums-brought-down-in-ddos-attack/

War is Hell.

Edit: Wait, so this was the SJW side DDOSing the GamerGate side?

Basically.

 Peregrine wrote:
Is the gaming community really that desperate for people to join their cause that they'll defend Thunderf00t? Or are you just not familiar with his behavior in the atheist community?

Oh, I want to hear the story!

 Asherian Command wrote:
I don't know who did it. It is not anonomyous they would of left a call sigh. A reasonable hacker would of left a call sign that is. That is kind of their M.O.

What the hell are you talking about? This is a DDoS, not a defacing.

 Asherian Command wrote:
She is a feminist. She is more feminist than the 'feminists' under Antia.

Well, she certainly is saying what you want to hear .

 Yonan wrote:
Totalbiscuit finished his wasteland 2 stream this morning (evening US time) with some commentary on the situation. He likened the recent "youtubers accepting money for promotional content" discussion recently to the "corruption in games journalism" we have here. The youtubers had an open discussion about it and many quickly started being more open about it. The games journalists did the opposite, they closed ranks and attacked the gamers instead.

This has been uploaded to youtube here for anyone that missed it, 4 minutes.