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Trying a tiny bit to get on topic.

I noticed recently with the "Steam" updates I can pick various Steam "curators".

So with all the claims of "Journalism Corruption", bias, developer funding (regarded little more than another branch of marketing) and kickbacks: who would I pick for recommendations or should I bother at all?
Here is a list (392 pages as of this moment): http://store.steampowered.com/curators/

The only conspiracy I am finding shocking about the whole thing is the "journalists" trying to claim that "gamers" they provided content for no longer exist, at least as a named group/culture.

Scandal happens, in pretty much anything.
The good thing to see is groups taking steps to protect against that kind of thing for the future.
Corrective action is the only reasonable response, or at least making more clear where conflict of interest may occur.

Sexism, misogyny, antifeminism, gender representation in video games, sexual harassment are strong hot topics for the "small vicious fringe" to latch on to and try gain legitimacy in unethical behavior by using public figures as scapegoats.
This last bit bothers me the most: I want to deny them all the audience they so crave who use this for their own ends but I do not want my silence to be construed as consent.

The calls for "taking a stand" I feel need to be ignored other than the developers who are trying to make a living and possibly enjoy what they do.
Yes, I think this is the only group I will support at this time.

 Yonan wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
You have found one example of one person in your side of the argument making a tiny concession.

It's not really my point to start a contest of who makes more concessions. My point was the sig reference.

You asked for examples of people on the pro-gg side giving concessions when they're wrong. I gave you one of mine - given that I'm on the pro-gg side - that came to mind. Do you expect me to have memorised every post everyone on dakka has made?

Correction: 'you asked for examples of people on the pro-gag side giving concessions when they're wrong in this thread.' You then defended yourself by showing that you did accept that you were wrong... That one time in a completely separate topic.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Movies are an art. That means Twillight too. Literature is an art. That means Twilight too. Just downgrade your definition of art .

Yes, yes it is.

So is this :

Spoiler:

And this :




Art does not have to be likeable, nor comprehensible.

Longer version of that video.

The guy on the squeaky skateboard thing at the end cracks me up.

 Talizvar wrote:
Trying a tiny bit to get on topic.

I noticed recently with the "Steam" updates I can pick various Steam "curators".

So with all the claims of "Journalism Corruption", bias, developer funding (regarded little more than another branch of marketing) and kickbacks: who would I pick for recommendations or should I bother at all?
Here is a list (392 pages as of this moment): http://store.steampowered.com/curators/

You pick Double Fine, because of the 4 pages on their Curation page 1 is of their own games, and the remaining 3 are of other people's games they think are great.

On the other hand, Totalbiscuit is the top one in the list.

Has PC Gamer and Rock, Paper Shotgun stayed out of the whole Gamergate thing, by any chance?


For those who are particularly interested in the Gamergate thing, there is now a "Gamergate Recommends" 'curator' too.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Movies are an art. That means Twillight too. Literature is an art. That means Twilight too. Just downgrade your definition of art .

Yes, yes it is.

So is this :

Spoiler:

And this :




Art does not have to be likeable, nor comprehensible.

Longer version of that video.

The guy on the squeaky skateboard thing at the end cracks me up.

Spoiler:

Ah thank you.
I only remember the guy with the musical penis from it, so I didn't know how to refine my search.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Ah thank you.
I only remember the guy with the musical penis from it, so I didn't know how to refine my search.

I find that the big related videos column at the side helps. No refined search required.

 Compel wrote:
On the other hand, Totalbiscuit is the top one in the list.

Has PC Gamer and Rock, Paper Shotgun stayed out of the whole Gamergate thing, by any chance?


For those who are particularly interested in the Gamergate thing, there is now a "Gamergate Recommends" 'curator' too.

Rock Paper Shotgun sadly has not, they joined in the flame war and are opposed to gamer gate. :/

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Ah thank you.
I only remember the guy with the musical penis from it, so I didn't know how to refine my search.

I find that the big related videos column at the side helps. No refined search required.

...well, I'm blind

Someone from EA said this...
WHATTT

 Asherian Command wrote:

Movies are an art. That means Twillight too. Literature is an art. That means Twilight too. Just downgrade your definition of art .
And beside, even if reducing games to their visual and musical aspect, why would a brilliant painting with a very beautiful music not be considered art because a computer is involved?

There are two types of art.

Good and bad Art.

Actually, there is art that appeals to my tastes, and disgusting mediocrity that should have never seen the face of the earth .

Took me a few days to read this thread, and read other stuff on the 'Net on #GamerGate.

I'm sorry... but, I'm sure I lost a few IQ points with this.

I'm a veteran video gamer who started back in the day on Commadore 64 and owning to just about every video gaming system up to this point.

To me, this movement is about grievance.

Nothing more.

What we have is some gamers think that these game critics and community administrators are bad people who are trying to stop them from having fun. And these game critics think gamers are bad people who support misogyny or racism or whatever.

Absolutely nothing either side says or does is going to change this. Nothing. So, as the "old man in the gaming scene".. I'm throwing my hands up in the air and deciding to stay out. /get off my lawn

By the holy Emprah, what baffles me is that this is a freakin' golden age of gaming.

 whembly wrote:
By the holy Emprah, what baffles me is that this is a freakin' golden age of gaming.

but the Dark Ages of video game journalism.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Someone from EA said this...
WHATTT

He works hard to not offend either side (director of digital communications and all...) but it shows a fair understanding of the issue I think. I'm glad he/EA/more people keep weighing in on this.

Video game journalists can learn from him. With regards to the not offending either side of the argument part


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure if anyone has posted this yet. The politics of Gamergate
http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

Quote from the article
"Critics will argue that someone banned on Reddit or neoGAF can simply go elsewhere on the Internet rather miss the point. Censorship is about denying certain views of an audience. Giving someone the freedom to speak in a deserted forest (or an unvisited website) doesn’t actually mean a great deal."

 whembly wrote:
To me, this movement is about grievance. Nothing more.

Well, yes. This is a consumer revolt. Involving factions who are unhappy because of one or more:

1) lack of respect given to their audience by some journalists and developers. For example, http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php
2) some journalists are trying to subtly (and not so subtly) influence game design and developer artistic choices. For example, http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149
3) discussion of this topic is still being censored on websites that profess to be about video game culture. For example, http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2dz0gs/totalbiscuit_discusses_the_state_of_games/?limit=500
4) some journalists are colluding to kill or boost stories depending on shared idealogy. For example, http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/09/games-journalism-games-journo-pros/
5) A segment of gamers are unhappy with the actions of certain women who won't be named. No examples because, well, where to start

As a veteran myself (started with an Atari) I'm concerned about issues 1-3. For issue 4 I believe the market should decide what games and publications succeed, and Issue 5 I don't care a whit about.

Quinn has literally just thrown herself back into the raging fires of Mt Doom by making some serious allegations about TFYC; and how gamergate is all 4chan etc, and how they're a scammy organisation etc etc etc and how she has all the info to prove it etc etc etc and how she'll only pass it on to her trusted sources etc etc etc. It's like man, why on earth does she keep trying to make herself relevant. If you have info, why would you not just post it straight away.

I suspect my previous estimate that she was an a narcissist or attention-seeker is probably correct

On the art discussion, Games, Movies, Books and Music are not Art. They are commercial products.

Sorry, for that hyperbole what i mean is they can be art, some games are artfully made. To say that something is art because it took lots of time and money to make something makes 80 percent of the things in the world art.

But then again Art is a totally subjective

I agree with the video, they totally lost my respect as a "consumer" of their "news" sites. But anyone with some brain-cells could see the over positive reviews of games of the last 25 years or more, i go to reviews of games to (gamer) people i know and look at these sites just for info on new games.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Movies are an art. That means Twillight too. Literature is an art. That means Twilight too. Just downgrade your definition of art .
And beside, even if reducing games to their visual and musical aspect, why would a brilliant painting with a very beautiful music not be considered art because a computer is involved?

There are two types of art.

Good and bad Art.

Actually, there is art that appeals to my tastes, and disgusting mediocrity that should have never seen the face of the earth .

To you, maybe.
But yes, art is subjective.

Sining wrote:
Quote from the article
"Critics will argue that someone banned on Reddit or neoGAF can simply go elsewhere on the Internet rather miss the point. Censorship is about denying certain views of an audience. Giving someone the freedom to speak in a deserted forest (or an unvisited website) doesn’t actually mean a great deal."

And this is just laughably wrong because it's based on an assumption that websites are public property and everyone has a right to speak there unless someone has a very good reason otherwise. This is not even close to true, and when you remember that these websites are private property the "anti-censorship" argument is revealed as a claim that you're entitled to have people help you bring your ideas to a large audience just because other people have an audience and it wouldn't be fair if you didn't get equal representation.

Plus, the idea that anyone is being limited to "unvisted websites" is pretty absurd given that this discussion is happening on a reasonably popular website. Nobody is having their views silenced, they just don't have as much of an audience as they want.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
2) some journalists are trying to subtly (and not so subtly) influence game design and developer artistic choices. For example, http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

Why is this a problem? People constantly try to influence game design and artistic choices. I mean, just look at this forum and how many times people talk about how GW needs to do X or how model Y sucks and needs to be improved. Are all of these people unfairly persecuting the poor artists at GW, or is attempting to persuade game developers and artists only a problem when the person attempting the persuasion is advocating something you don't agree with?

 Peregrine wrote:
Why is this a problem? People constantly try to influence game design and artistic choices. I mean, just look at this forum and how many times people talk about how GW needs to do X or how model Y sucks and needs to be improved. Are all of these people unfairly persecuting the poor artists at GW, or is attempting to persuade game developers and artists only a problem when the person attempting the persuasion is advocating something you don't agree with?

I don't agree with anyone trying to influence a content creator on their artistic or design directions. However, I see a slight difference between 'the new Space Marine tank sucks lol' and:

blackmails in the form of "change your game art or we won't publish a single word about you."

If you can't see a difference, then I'm happy to keep talking about it further

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
I don't agree with anyone trying to influence a content creator on their artistic or design directions.

So you object to every thread complaining about GW models and trying to tell GW to change them? Were you outraged about the Mass Effect 3 incident where the fans demanded (and eventually received) a better ending? Did you join the crusade against the Diablo 1/2 fans who complained about the "cartoonish" art style shown in the Diablo 3 previews and told Blizzard to change it back?

However, I see a slight difference between 'the new Space Marine tank sucks lol' and:

blackmails in the form of "change your game art or we won't publish a single word about you."

If you can't see a difference, then I'm happy to keep talking about it further

The only difference I see is that one threat has at least a little bit of power behind it, while the forum whine threads about the new space marine models have no real influence with GW. But that's not a very significant difference because the people demanding changes from GW want that power and would use it if they had it.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
On the art discussion, Games, Movies, Books and Music are not Art. They are commercial products.

Sorry, for that hyperbole what i mean is they can be art, some games are artfully made. To say that something is art because it took lots of time and money to make something makes 80 percent of the things in the world art.

But then again Art is a totally subjective

I agree with the video, they totally lost my respect as a "consumer" of their "news" sites. But anyone with some brain-cells could see the over positive reviews of games of the last 25 years or more, i go to reviews of games to (gamer) people i know and look at these sites just for info on new games.

the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

I don't see why that doesn't apply to certain games and movies, especially ones with a strong emotional message. If it takes creativity and imagination to make, then it's art. If it's unoriginal and didn't take much creativity and imagination to make and the creator didn't really have any particular theme or message in mind , then sure you can say that it's not really art.

Of course, not ALL games are art.

And do you really think that music like Beethoven or Mozart is not art?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
On the art discussion, Games, Movies, Books and Music are not Art. They are commercial products.

Sorry, for that hyperbole what i mean is they can be art, some games are artfully made. To say that something is art because it took lots of time and money to make something makes 80 percent of the things in the world art.

But then again Art is a totally subjective

I agree with the video, they totally lost my respect as a "consumer" of their "news" sites. But anyone with some brain-cells could see the over positive reviews of games of the last 25 years or more, i go to reviews of games to (gamer) people i know and look at these sites just for info on new games.

the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

I don't see why that doesn't apply to certain games and movies, especially ones with a strong emotional message. If it takes creativity and imagination to make, then it's art. If it's unoriginal and didn't take much creativity and imagination to make and the creator didn't really have any particular theme or message in mind , then sure you can say that it's not really art.

Of course, not ALL games are art.

And do you [I]really[/] think that music like Beethoven or Mozart is not art?

He said "they can be art" but he wouldn't classify most as art but rather as a commercial product. I would agree with that assessment.

Games are complex things made of visual, audio, narrative and likely other things which each individually are art, let alone the interaction of them together. There have been some beautiful looking vistas in games, amazing individual models and so on that should qualify as art on their own. Likewise the soundtracks for some games are amazing - baba yetu comes to mind from civ 4, though I doubt it was made for civ 4, but there are many amazing soundtracks made specifically for games, and OCRemix has some great remixes too. Stories like Planescape: Torment, Brothers (supposedly), Transistor, Bastion, Walking Dead, Wolf Among Us are all amazing narratives that would go well amongst narrative art works. As a cohesive whole it's hard to argue about "game art" because ... I don't really know or care tbh ; p I'll leave that to arts majors.

I think more importantly, games are tools for people to do all sorts of things in a safe environment - there are articles and studies that show by playing games with ethical considerations, people are more likely to make more ethical choices after having played them. I've always thought this - going back to DnD whether you played the white knight or the evil villain, it let you look at ethics which helped you hone your own. You may have slaughtered those villagers in that game, but you did realize doing so was bad - it can be good to be bad in a game, but it helps you realize it's bad to be bad IRL. That's part of what I think gaming contributes to society, and why GamerGate is so important - stifling that creativity by bringing outside moralistic agendas in that curtail those ethical decisions can only harm the hobby imo. If radical crusaders get their way and remove the ability for games developers to present us these ethical considerations, we lose a great opportunity to help us analyse and train ethics. The censorship of threads disagreeing with them, the mainstream journalists that only publish those viewpoints and the expectation that devs need to hire these people for their input on game development are all problematic in this regard.

For some reading on that I found recently - The Virtual Guilt of Doing Wrong in Games Makes Players Better Real-Life Humans and ‘Bad’ video game behavior increases players’ moral sensitivity.

Sining wrote:
Not sure if anyone has posted this yet. The politics of Gamergate
http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

Quote from the article
"Critics will argue that someone banned on Reddit or neoGAF can simply go elsewhere on the Internet rather miss the point. Censorship is about denying certain views of an audience. Giving someone the freedom to speak in a deserted forest (or an unvisited website) doesn’t actually mean a great deal."

This was a really good, balanced article. Well worth reading.

 Peregrine wrote:
The only difference I see is that one threat has at least a little bit of power behind it, while the forum whine threads about the new space marine models have no real influence with GW. But that's not a very significant difference because the people demanding changes from GW want that power and would use it if they had it.

So you do recognize the difference between complaints and blackmail, you just flat out don't care? 'Not a significant difference'

Also I actually was against changing the ending of Mass Effect 3

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
Also I actually was against changing the ending of Mass Effect 3

3? They stopped at 2. *twitch*

 Yonan wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
Also I actually was against changing the ending of Mass Effect 3

3? They stopped at 2. *twitch*

Maybe calling it Mass Effect Gaiden would help?

 Yonan wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
Also I actually was against changing the ending of Mass Effect 3

3? They stopped at 2. *twitch*

Nope they made one really long game that you had to buy in installments. Just turning on the game gives me goose bumps. I will forever judge all games based off the Mass Effect Trilogy.

Note: Mass Effect 3 hits the nail on the head when it comes to "I will never quit, I will never accept defeat." It tickled all of my military spots. Sometimes no matter what you do it fails anyways...and all you can do is drive on and do the best you can.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
2) some journalists are trying to subtly (and not so subtly) influence game design and developer artistic choices. For example, http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

And it is to those people I want to answer, because I think they are wrong, very wrong. I do not really care about the journalists, I was not reading them before and I will not read them after. But damn I do care about what is in the game I play, including how female characters are portrayed.

Sining wrote:
Quinn has literally just thrown herself back into the raging fires of Mt Doom

Figuratively .

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
On the art discussion, Games, Movies, Books and Music are not Art. They are commercial products.

But almost all art is commercial product!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Actually, there is art that appeals to my tastes, and disgusting mediocrity that should have never seen the face of the earth .

To you, maybe.

I thought obvious jape was obvious .

 Peregrine wrote:
And this is just laughably wrong because it's based on an assumption that websites are public property and everyone has a right to speak there unless someone has a very good reason otherwise. This is not even close to true, and when you remember that these websites are private property the "anti-censorship" argument is revealed as a claim that you're entitled to have people help you bring your ideas to a large audience just because other people have an audience and it wouldn't be fair if you didn't get equal representation.

It is pretty much exactly like how Games Workshop stores do not allow you to play Warmachine or Infinity on their tables. Outrage!

 Yonan wrote:
Likewise the soundtracks for some games are amazing - baba yetu comes to mind from civ 4, though I doubt it was made for civ 4, but there are many amazing soundtracks made specifically for games

Bastion. Total Annihilation. Warcraft II. Not sure for Painkiller.

 Yonan wrote:
Stories like Planescape: Torment, Brothers (supposedly), Transistor, Bastion, Walking Dead, Wolf Among Us are all amazing narratives that would go well amongst narrative art works.

Bastion? I disagree.

 Yonan wrote:
stifling that creativity by bringing outside moralistic agendas in that curtail those ethical decisions can only harm the hobby imo.

Except what the GGers are working against is not a stiffing of creativity, it is about changing what the norm is. There is always going to be creativity, and there is always going to be a norm. Now if we could get the norm at the right place, it would be much better.
Putting a boob-plate or a metal bikini is about as far as one can get from creativity.