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morgoth wrote:
That's the thing, sisters are somewhat obscure already.

This whole thread is about fear of the unknown, and IMO, sisters are a lot more unknown than the basic stuff, like your comment on a brand new player shows.

You know what brand new players don't know? EVERYTHING. That's why they're "new players". They're still learning.

I feel you're just trying to shove 40k into neat little compartments it doesn't fit. 40k isn't just "core" and "expanded", nor is it "regular" and "FW". 40k is EVERYTHING. You don't have to play with it all, but it's all 40k.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

morgoth wrote:
That's the thing, sisters are somewhat obscure already.

This whole thread is about fear of the unknown, and IMO, sisters are a lot more unknown than the basic stuff, like your comment on a brand new player shows.

You know what brand new players don't know? EVERYTHING. That's why they're "new players". They're still learning.

I feel you're just trying to shove 40k into neat little compartments it doesn't fit. 40k isn't just "core" and "expanded", nor is it "regular" and "FW". 40k is EVERYTHING. You don't have to play with it all, but it's all 40k.

Hey I'm fine with that too.
I'm just trying to help the misunderstood FW- people realize there's a reason for people not "expecting" them to bring FW to the table.

Sisters aren't really the same as FW. Them being direct only is a more recent happening. Forge World has always been an addition to what you can buy from your local GW, Sisters are the result of GW moving stock they don't move as much to direct only.

I somewhat agree that morgoth has a point with "core 40k" being the codices and rulebook. Back when I was starting 40k there were a lot of armies I hadn't faced because I was new. But often when people would ask me for a game I would go to the store and flip through the relevant codex to get an idea of what that particular army was all about (as a result of getting absolutely pummelled on a few occasions by armies I knew nothing about ).

So I appreciate the idea of a "core 40k" being what you can read about in stores. Of course GW have started to blur that line as well with the moving of stuff to direct only and digital online only.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sisters aren't really the same as FW. Them being direct only is a more recent happening. Forge World has always been an addition to what you can buy from your local GW, Sisters are the result of GW moving stock they don't move as much to direct only.

"Recent" being more than 6 years ago, since they've been direct only longer than I've been back into 40k (6 years).

Maybe "core 40K" is a bad name, but really if it doesn't have a real book or GW miniatures... I mean come on.

Sisters appear to be in between though, with GW miniatures yet no real book (wtf), I would expect them to move to FW at some point.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sisters aren't really the same as FW. Them being direct only is a more recent happening. Forge World has always been an addition to what you can buy from your local GW, Sisters are the result of GW moving stock they don't move as much to direct only.

"Recent" being more than 6 years ago, since they've been direct only longer than I've been back into 40k (6 years).

Is it that long? Wow, I really haven't played much recently and GW REALLY hate sisters don't they...

morgoth wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

morgoth wrote:


Fact: a very large share (95+%) of the population of 40K gamers knows about BRB and Codex and uses those rules as well as the units described within.

Fact: a smaller share(maybe a minority) of that population of 40K gamers know about FW stuff, and use those rules as well as the units described within.

Fact: within that minority, there exist smaller sub-minorities that like FW models but cannot stand LoW, and even tinier smaller sub-minorities that are fine with Lord Kaldor Draigo and an Imperial Titan but would never play against an Eldar Titan.

CITATION NEEDED. You don't just get to make factual claims without backing it up.

1+1=2, citation needed.

There's also this thing called the Principa Mathematica where you'd be able to find plenty of evidence that 1+1=2.

Your turn.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sisters aren't really the same as FW. Them being direct only is a more recent happening. Forge World has always been an addition to what you can buy from your local GW, Sisters are the result of GW moving stock they don't move as much to direct only.

"Recent" being more than 6 years ago, since they've been direct only longer than I've been back into 40k (6 years).

Is it that long? Wow, I really haven't played much recently and GW REALLY hate sisters don't they?

Yup. I got back into 40k in 2008, and it's now 2014. That's 6 years.

morgoth wrote:Maybe "core 40K" is a bad name, but really if it doesn't have a real book or GW miniatures... I mean come on.

Sisters appear to be in between though, with GW miniatures yet no real book (wtf), I would expect them to move to FW at some point.

FW seems to be wanting either nothing to to do with them or is waiting for the studio to figure out what they're going to do with the army before they do anything with them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

morgoth wrote:


Fact: a very large share (95+%) of the population of 40K gamers knows about BRB and Codex and uses those rules as well as the units described within.

Fact: a smaller share(maybe a minority) of that population of 40K gamers know about FW stuff, and use those rules as well as the units described within.

Fact: within that minority, there exist smaller sub-minorities that like FW models but cannot stand LoW, and even tinier smaller sub-minorities that are fine with Lord Kaldor Draigo and an Imperial Titan but would never play against an Eldar Titan.

CITATION NEEDED. You don't just get to make factual claims without backing it up.

1+1=2, citation needed.

There's also this thing called the Principa Mathematica where you'd be able to find plenty of evidence that 1+1=2.

Your turn.

I love you.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Your turn.

In order to be considered a 40K player, you need to play 40K.
In order to play 40K, you need the BRB, and one Codex, and some miniatures.
Therefore, 100% of the 40K players know of the BRB and at least one Codex.

Some 40K players own zero FW books and zero FW minis (proof: I don't).
Therefore, there are less FW players than 40K players.

If there were almost as many FW players as 40K players, then FW would be a big part of the GW business, it's not.
Therefore, the share of FW players is expected to be considerably smaller than the share of 40K players (at least 2x smaller for the same economics of scale to not make sense).


Lastly, some FW players enjoy LoW (proof: titans sell).
Therefore, not all FW players are LoW haters and we can conclude that the FW player segment is further fragmented.

Considering the large price tag associated with LoW models, and the fact that FW must run as a business, it stands to reason that they do sell in reasonable amounts.
This alone means that the non-LoW-hating faction is sizeable.

Considering the very high likelihood that other factions exist with as narrow a view as "FW OK / LoW NOK", it stands to reason that that faction is extremely unlikely to be in majority among the FW minority.


I don't know why this needs to be explained though.

morgoth wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Your turn.

Some 40K players own zero FW books and zero FW minis (proof: I don't).
Therefore, there are less FW players than 40K players.

You're completely disregarding 30k, which doesn't require any 40k at all. It's a fair assumption, but that's my point: it's all an assumption. You don't have any statistics backing it up, and you're making absolute claims about something without providing a source. It's completely plausible (I'd even agree that it's likely) that your description is true, but you've got nothing that actually proves that it is the case.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Your turn.

Some 40K players own zero FW books and zero FW minis (proof: I don't).
Therefore, there are less FW players than 40K players.

You're completely disregarding 30k, which doesn't require any 40k at all. It's a fair assumption, but that's my point: it's all an assumption. You don't have any statistics backing it up, and you're making absolute claims about something without providing a source. It's completely plausible (I'd even agree that it's likely) that your description is true, but you've got nothing that actually proves that it is the case.

No, you still need the 40k main rule book to play 30k.

I still don't get how opinions need to be proved by math.

There are more people that play Space Marines than any single other army.

Therefore, Space Marines are "core" 40k and every other army is "expanded" 40k.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're completely disregarding 30k, which doesn't require any 40k at all. It's a fair assumption, but that's my point: it's all an assumption. You don't have any statistics backing it up, and you're making absolute claims about something without providing a source. It's completely plausible (I'd even agree that it's likely) that your description is true, but you've got nothing that actually proves that it is the case.

It's a fact I just demonstrated to you.
Just like 1+1=2, except you don't want to read my proof.

Unless you can find a flawed hypothesis or implication, it's even better than a fact because it cannot be corrupted by the eye of the beholder.

The flawed hypothesis is that "because it isn't mainstream, it isn't 'core' 40k"

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There are more people that play Spacr Marines than any single other army.

Therefore, Space Marines are "core" 40k and every other army is "expanded" 40k.

And you will find a ton of players who feel that way and consider anything "unusual" from any other army "bs cheese" and never discuss it once when the "emperor's favorite" get Turn 1 deepstrike without scatter.

That is true as well, except that there is no absolute difference between SM and say Dark Eldar other than pure number of users, i.e. not a property of the codex/army itself.
It's fine to base your distinction on statistics only but it's often meaningless.
You could probably further reduce it to UltraMarines, or even just TacticalSM pose 1 with a bolter, it just wouldn't make much sense.

morgoth wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There are more people that play Spacr Marines than any single other army.

Therefore, Space Marines are "core" 40k and every other army is "expanded" 40k.

And you will find a ton of players who feel that way and consider anything "unusual" from any other army "bs cheese" and never discuss it once when the "emperor's favorite" get Turn 1 deepstrike without scatter.

That is true as well, except that there is no absolute difference between SM and say Dark Eldar other than pure number of users, i.e. not a property of the codex/army itself.
It's fine to base your distinction on statistics only but it's often meaningless.
You could probably further reduce it to UltraMarines, or even just TacticalSM pose 1 with a bolter, it just wouldn't make much sense.

Thus illustrating the flaw in your hypothesis; statistics does not determine what the "core" of a game is.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The flawed hypothesis is that "because it isn't mainstream, it isn't 'core' 40k"

There is a concept, floating in the air of "core 40K".
I named it "core 40K", and I decided it was limited to all the GW you can get in a store, because that's the GW that you know every single 40K player has seen.
Which is in turn the basis to call it "core 40K".

So what is it, do you have a problem with the existence of such a concept ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
There are more people that play Spacr Marines than any single other army.

Therefore, Space Marines are "core" 40k and every other army is "expanded" 40k.

And you will find a ton of players who feel that way and consider anything "unusual" from any other army "bs cheese" and never discuss it once when the "emperor's favorite" get Turn 1 deepstrike without scatter.

That is true as well, except that there is no absolute difference between SM and say Dark Eldar other than pure number of users, i.e. not a property of the codex/army itself.
It's fine to base your distinction on statistics only but it's often meaningless.
You could probably further reduce it to UltraMarines, or even just TacticalSM pose 1 with a bolter, it just wouldn't make much sense.

Thus illustrating the flaw in your hypothesis; statistics does not determine what the "core" of a game is.

Thus illustrating the flaw in your reading comprehension, my concept (which you may not like or even acknowledge) is based on a lot more than statistics.

I always thought "Core" 40k, if such a thing truly exists, was the stuff peddled on the main GW website.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I always thought "Core" 40k, if such a thing truly exists, was the stuff peddled on the main GW website.

The only problem with that is things like apoc are put there.

Frankly I feel that "core" 40k is just a concept dreamed up by a portion of the player base to have a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Frankly I feel that "core" 40k is just a concept dreamed up by a portion of the player base to have a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against.

This.

EDIT: Also, I can get FW at my store. Just bought another Warhound there this weekend.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I always thought "Core" 40k, if such a thing truly exists, was the stuff peddled on the main GW website.

The only problem with that is things like apoc are put there.

Yep. I think the concept is a lot of crap because the more specific you get the more subjective you get.

So besides your flawed concept of 'core' 40k, do you actually have a point to make, morgoth?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Frankly I feel that "core" 40k is just a concept dreamed up by a portion of the player base to have a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against.

This.

EDIT: Also, I can get FW at my store. Just bought another Warhound there this weekend.

My FLGS has done batch FW orders too.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Frankly I feel that "core" 40k is just a concept dreamed up by a portion of the player base to have a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against.

This.

EDIT: Also, I can get FW at my store. Just bought another Warhound there this weekend.

My FLGS has done batch FW orders too.

I actually got to see the model in person and make a purchasing decision, too.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Frankly I feel that "core" 40k is just a concept dreamed up by a portion of the player base to have a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against.

This.

EDIT: Also, I can get FW at my store. Just bought another Warhound there this weekend.

My FLGS has done batch FW orders too.

I actually got to see the model in person and make a purchasing decision, too.

A bit more than what we can do here, but enough FW models are floating around locally that you can see most of them and get opinions on them pretty easily.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Frankly I feel that "core" 40k is just a concept dreamed up by a portion of the player base to have a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against.

Frankly I feel one must be blind to pretend that dataslates, unbound and FW are part of the expectations of every 40K gamer, let alone a majority.
I don't think people need a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against, after all they've already got the fluff bunny vs evil competition guy, the old-size GW vs huge robots, Eldar OP, and so many other things........

Maybe they just like collecting those excuses though.

My concept was just there to name that and to explain why it makes sense - I wouldn't miss the opportunity to see new models.

morgoth wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Frankly I feel that "core" 40k is just a concept dreamed up by a portion of the player base to have a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against.

Frankly I feel one must be blind to pretend that dataslates, unbound and FW are part of the expectations of every 40K gamer, let alone a majority.
I don't think people need a reason to exclude things they don't want to play against, after all they've already got the fluff bunny vs evil competition guy, the old-size GW vs huge robots, Eldar OP, and so many other things........

Maybe they just like collecting those excuses though.

My concept was just there to name that and to explain why it makes sense - I wouldn't miss the opportunity to see new models.

If people don't want to play against certain things that's fine. But please, for the love of the Emperor, just admit it's your personal feelings and not some unspoken rule in the community.