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To everyone that keeps saying "it isn't the lists that win", yes I understand that. I also understand that using a list that has won multiple masters events gives me a better chance to win than buying random models. I'm not sure why I would somehow have a harder time winning with a tournament list than a casual one. I understand that the game takes time to learn, I would rather learn with a good list. I'm getting the numbers from a PP thread about menoth unit usage in masters tournaments. It was tracked through all of 2013 and now 2014 and you can look at the numbers separately to see what's rising and falling in popularity. High reclaimer is not the most popular, he just has the highest win %. Harbinger is by far the most popular but I like the model for reclaimer much better (which is saying a lot because the aesthetics of warmachine REALLY don't do it for me). If reclaimer isn't good for a noob I will go with harbinger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the caster data. This is based on all masters tournaments in 2014. Thanks to the guys at PP forums for putting this kind of data together. That's part of why I'm playing WM despite the aesthetics and having some of the same issues as 40k just on a smaller scale.
Based on Celebros' data from 2014 Masters Tournaments, here is the average final placing for our casters thus far this year.

Average Placing in Masters
1. High Reclaimer - 3.9 (n=8)
2. Vindictus - 4 (n=1)
3. Harbinger - 4.7 (n=15)
4. Kreoss3 - 4.8 (n=11)
5. Severius2 - 6 (n=3)
6. Severius1 - 6.5 (n=13)
7. Testament - 7.7 (n=3)
8. Amon - 8 (n=4)
9. Feora2 - 8.5 (n=13)
10. Kreoss2 - 8.5 (n=6)
10. Feora1 - 8.5 (n=2)
11. Thyra - 9 (n=2)
12. Kreoss1 - 10 (n=12)
13. Reznik1 - 16 (n=2)

First place casters:
2 first places: High Reclaimer, Harbinger, Kreoss3
1 first place: Feora2, Severius1

Right now the High Reclaimer is clearly our most competitive caster - he's been tops in 8 tournaments.

High Reclaimer, Harbinger, and Kreoss3 rank very high with a relatively good sample size.

Sev1, Feora2, and Kreoss1 are very popular, but didn't perform as consistently well has HR, Harbinger, and Kreoss3.

Toofast wrote:
To everyone that keeps saying "it isn't the lists that win", yes I understand that. I also understand that using a list that has won multiple masters events gives me a better chance to win than buying random models.

Let me lay it out for you in the simplest terms. Let's say that each WM/H game is like playing a 10 game series of rock paper scissors. Each player can pick any number of rock, paper and scissors as long as it adds up to 10 and use them in any order. The multiple list tournament format encourages players to build a lists that skew heavily towards any one-of rock, paper or scissors... something like 0, rock, 3 paper, 7 scissors. This will have very strong matchup vs guys that went paper heavy (since you have no rock, and lots of scissors) and ok matchup vs guys that go scissors heavy with paper backup, and ok vs guys that build all comers lists (i.e balanced rock, paper, scissors). The second (and/or third) lists typically contain stuff to correct for the deficiencies in the skew. Tournament players also usually include one balanced list as they will typically have fewer very bad matchups.

So... basically, what other posters are suggesting is: before you skew - you need to know how each part of the game (rock, paper and scissors) functions, and then know when to skew heavily into one mode (eVyros: is pretty much going all-in on scissors). Sure, you can skew immediately (which it sounds like you're set to do, irrespective of advice) - just know that this list is not suited for furnishing a thorough understanding of the game - AND - a well rounded understanding of the game is necessary for success.

Good luck.

Here is where your GW gaming experience is messing with your thought process.

The lists you see that win major tournaments don't mean anything. These are lists that those specific players are very very good with. They are optimized to play a specific way against certain matchups against different types of armies and army builds. If you look at the Khador list that Will Pagani won Temple Con with its weird and janky and honestly not something that most Khador players would consider taken. BUT it worked for him and that instance against a troll list that was not ready for it. Also Master's tournaments are 2-3 lists and some are Divide and Conquer (having to play each at least once). You have to know how to build the lists to cover each others weak spots while still being able to get work done. By the way in tournaments you both look at each others lists before deciding which to take, so you need to know what list is going to be your best drop for that game.

This is not 40k the answer is not Oh wow Tau Suits rock, lets do lots of those. It won't work and you will get heavily noob stomped (sorry its gonna happen at first anyway).

This game is truly 80/20 Player/list, and while its true that Cryx doesn't really want to see Scorchia2 across the table it doesn't mean that Lych2 isnt gonna eat her lunch if the Khador player doesn't know what he is doing.


So please, please, please listen to us. Get the battle box, Get in a few games. Add a solo and a unit to get to 25 points and play a bit, then 35pts and finally to 50pts. You will be much much happier as a player and have a much better time getting there.

Important to note:

Master's tournaments are a very different creature from normal tournaments. By their very nature, they have already selected for people who have performed well in a previous tournament: this means that they dramatically overstate differences in the strength of certain models.

Secondly, and /much/ more importantly, they are hugely meta dependent. For example: typically you see (or at least saw) a lot of Cryx getting /into/ the Master's tournaments, but they typically performed less-than-average. This is because all the people in the master's tournaments looked at the high number of Cryx players and took steps to make sure that their lists could deal with higher-than-average amounts of infantry.

As shifts in the meta occur, balance between factions shifts. What is strong one day will be weak another. If you told someone a couple years ago that the High Reclaimer would be the 'best performing' caster in Menoth, they would have said that you were mad. That's the kind of game WM is, and I think that's a strong sign of its balance- very subtle changes dramatically shift the landscape.

From my understanding, each caster has certain strengths and weaknesses that you need to build a list around. Harbinger and HR seem to be the top casters so I was planning on making a list for each of them. I have looked at probably 20 harbinger lists and they all seem to have the same basic core with only a few units swapped in and out. If I built a list using that same core, how would it be considered a weird skew list? For example
Harbinger
Devout
Redeemer
Reckoner
choir
Errants
bastions
Vassal
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord

Is this some weird skew list because it seems more like the core of a lot of harbinger lists, nearly every harbinger list I've seen runs these models.

If you haven't played a game yet then I would highly recommend you stop looking at all the lists being used in competitive play. More than anything you need to learn how the game mechanics work, the level of tactical flexibility and thinking required is miles above 40k. Starting with a list orientated mindset will just cause you to lose games constantly to the point that you will probably ragequit the faction (I have seen it happen). This is twice as important if you don't really like the aesthetic, because if you end up not liking the list or the playstyle of the faction in general (again, have seen this happen) AND you don't really like the models either then you have basically thrown your money away. Seriously, just start small and work your way up to 25/35/50pt games (small Warmachine games are still much more interesting than small 40k games imo).

The other thing that is hard to get your head around is that there are no outright terrible units/models in this game. For example Garryth was widely considered one of the worst casters for Ret, but he is seeing more use now (particularly in 3 list formats) because he is an amazing counter to 3Butcher (who is probably the most popular Khador caster at the moment). In 40k running a Marine Battle Company (i.e full units Tacticals, Assault Squads and Devasators) will see you lose every game, but in Warmachine you can find the one caster in your faction that makes this kind of combination click and do well with it. Should also point out that spamming the same unit in this game tends to work out badly.

Please don't think we are trying to rain on your parade. We are not, honestly we are trying to set you up for success here.

How I teach new players is thus.

Battle box games with just caster kill to get them used to playing with the game mechanics and get some synergy down with feats and spells, phases etc.
Add a solo and unit and play a few more games of just caster kill, Then bring in scenario (here is were the game really shines).
Bring it up to 35 points so that you get to really think through your activations and set up combo's assassination runs. Focus distribution etc.
50pt games with steamroller scenarios and list chicken.
You will be a much better player this way.

Most of us are a bit loath to just hand you a list and say "Good luck, and god bless". This is because we know the pitfall that will ensue. We all know Kreoss1 is a scary caster in the right hands. We all fear Denny1 when a good Cryx player brings her out. We have all lost to the Molik Kharn Missle

I've been reading battle college looking at the styles and synergy with different casters. The reason I was looking to avoid starting slow is I did that with 40k and the only thing I still use in my tournament list from the beginning is 3 squads of GH. I have 2 dreads, a land raider, a rhino, scouts, iron priest with thralls and a bunch of characters I never use because I just added 1 unit at a time without thinking about my final list. I would prefer to have a caster/play style in mind before making any purchases other than the starter box. I'll definitely hold off on building a 35 or 50 point army until I get the hang of the game, especially since I rarely see any of the units in the starter box used in any type of competitive list. It seems like no matter what route I go, I will be building a whole army from scratch.

That's fair and I get where you are coming from.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you changes casters the units you have work a bit differently. For example running winter guard with eScorchia is much differnt then with pIrusk. Same thing for beasts with legion and trolls etc. I would tell you to decide on a faction and grab the staples and go from there then. I would also recommend getting a more starter friendly caster that is more forgiving to start with.

Toofast wrote:
especially since I rarely see any of the units in the starter box used in any type of competitive list

Apart from the Legion box (shredders) and the Cryx box (bonechickens) and the Cyriss box (the caster was against jay larsen's siege list from memory on the final table) and the Ret box (griffon, and I think the other light gets some game time with Issyria, but I could be getting them mixed up) and the Skorne battlegroup (gladiators rock the world) and trolls (impalers for eGrimm and any other caster who wants to gun a bit). But yeah, almost none of the boxes really see much use later on. Although Circle do use ferals sometimes, and cygnar can take lancers are taken in Cygnar lists quite often (very good with eStryker as a cheap source of positive charge around the place). So sort of none of the boxes.

I was specifically talking about the Menoth models in the starter box. The caster is used but cinerators are by far the worst units for menoth according to, well, everyone. The jacks in the starter box don't see much use either. That's why I might not be sticking with menoth but for $30 I get to try the game out and see if I like it enough to drop cash on a couple armies.

Fortunately, its a rather easy conversion to make the Cinerators into Bastions.

Pop the shields and swords off and replace them with any halberd type weapon you have available(GK halberds work great)

And even though Crusaders and Repenters aren't used as often, they're still great jacks. And Vanquishers definitely see use. I have two, play competitively, and wouldn't be opposed to having a third. Its fun to toss out tons of fire basically at will(fire kills infantry dead)

And for $30 is still a great deal even if you don't use them very much. You still got a caster and a very commonly used heavy, and Bastions if you convert the Cinerators, for only $30.

You can also buy another Crusader/Vanquisher/Templar heavy kit and magnetize it with the Crusader's body.

Check out http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com its great to look over units and factions.

Is there anywhere to just buy Bastion arms? I would prefer to stick with PP parts on my figs like I always use GW bits on my 40k stuff. I mostly went in on the box for the rules and the caster so if I have to ebay/trade the other stuff or throw it in the closet with my space wolves rejects I won't lose any sleep over it.

Toofast wrote:
Is there anywhere to just buy Bastion arms? I would prefer to stick with PP parts on my figs like I always use GW bits on my 40k stuff. I mostly went in on the box for the rules and the caster so if I have to ebay/trade the other stuff or throw it in the closet with my space wolves rejects I won't lose any sleep over it.

http://store.privateerpress.com/search.aspx?find=Bastion. Cool thing about Privateer is that you can order loose parts for a lot of the models. This might not be the case in the future as they move more stuff over to plastic.

Would it be WYSIWYG when they have those big shields that bastions don't have? I would rather buy a box of bastions than explain to every opponent that my cinerators are bastions. Also if I play tournaments how will they rule on that?

I think the High Reclaimer is an excellent caster and would be a great place to begin

I heavily do not recommend starting with Harby, but I do suggest buying her.

Don't forget the Errant's UA

I heartily disagree. HR is not an easy caster to play with, especially for a beginner.

I do agree Harbinger is not a beginner caster.

The best 2 beginning Menoth casters would be pKreoss or pSevy. Straightforward casters that are forgiving and have a good tool box of spells. They're also a little more flexible in terms of list building.

@Toofast: Considering that a typical battlebox (starter) bundle of caster +1x heavy and 2x lights costs a bit less than 1 heavy + 1 light at MSRP - you are already getting a free light warjack and a free warcaster. In the 2 player starter - its an even better deal! (Keep in mind I'm using MSRP - you can usually get stuff discounted heavily, but it's usually discounted the same across the range).

$50MSRP for 1/2 a 2 player starter.

You get:
$12MSRP Kreoss
$35MSRP Vanquisher (less option parts obviously... but he's the most used out of the box)

For the leftover $3 you get:
Rulebook (arguably)
FREE CINERATORS ($45MSRP)
FREE REPENTER ($18MSRP)
FREE CRUSADER ($35MSRP)

Even if they aren't the consensus best in slot units - they are FREE compared to if you bought them separately... so I wouldn't complain too much!!!

-edit- When I needed another unit of MOW shock troopers for a store Man-O-War Grudge Match and a Destroyer to convert to Black Ivan... guess what I bought... A TWO PLAYER STARTER!!!! For the extra $30 I spent, I got a pocket rulebook, ALL THE MENOTH (for trades, or use), an extra Sorscha and an extra heavy... at MSRP - I couldn't even buy the Khador contents for that money - and they get less models than the Menoth side.

With all due respect you're approaching the game from the perspective of a competitive 40k player, and it's not the same. The current tournament scene varies depending on the type of tournament. WTC for example is a team environment so you tend to see more of a skew because your partner might be better for dealing with heavy armor, while your faction is better for infantry.

Even in a competitive scene, look at the top tier lists but look at them as advice, not "I'll just copy this list" because the person who played that list won't use it all the time; you typically have the same people using different lists at different tournaments (usually they're slight variations on the same, but it's typically not the same exact list). Compare that to 40k where your Serpent Spam is virtually the same no matter what tournament or who uses it.

Believe me, the hardest part is unlearning how 40k works and learning how Warmachine works. I haven't touched 40k in over 10 years and I'm still finding that I want to apply 40k style tactics to Warmachine games, and it just doesn't work.

 motyak wrote:

Toofast wrote:
especially since I rarely see any of the units in the starter box used in any type of competitive list

Apart from the Legion box (shredders) and the Cryx box (bonechickens) and the Cyriss box (the caster was against jay larsen's siege list from memory on the final table) and the Ret box (griffon, and I think the other light gets some game time with Issyria, but I could be getting them mixed up) and the Skorne battlegroup (gladiators rock the world) and trolls (impalers for eGrimm and any other caster who wants to gun a bit). But yeah, almost none of the boxes really see much use later on. Although Circle do use ferals sometimes, and cygnar can take lancers are taken in Cygnar lists quite often (very good with eStryker as a cheap source of positive charge around the place). So sort of none of the boxes.

Hey. I won a tournament with PKaya once. Not a very big one, but still.

That said, the starter boxes aren't always (or even usually) the optimal starting points for tournament lists, but they get you the tools to learn the game cheaply. The battle boxes I'm most familiar with (Skorne and Circle) net you some key pieces that will remain useful forever and teach you the inherent concepts of the game and your army very well. You're not going to be able to plop down a freshly-assembled list you got out of someone's tournament-winning setup and win reliably; Warmahordes is much, much more of a skill game than 40k is, and the battle boxes provide easy and forgiving ways to wrap your head around the fundamentals.

Be aware about the differences between GW's and PP's release schedule when thinking units are over/under-powered.
GW typically dumps a codex on you, and then you're on your own for 4 years until you get re-done.

PP on the other hand will have a number of releases for your faction over the year. Often these are UAs or Solos which buff the relative power of some units, or a beast which synergises well with a 'bad' caster. Eg, the recent release of Dozer&Smigg, a Troll character warbeast designed to work with Gunnbjorn, one of the 'worst' casters in the game; or Bearka, who goes very well in a list with the Mountain King, one of the most maligned colossals. People who have been shunning Gunnbjorn for years are now looking at him in a new light.
So be a bit prepared to kick yourself when in six months Menoth gets a caster with Field Marshall [Exemplar Cinerators]...

Looking at the distributions of units is a bit naff as well. Sure, you can pick out some of the most common units, but the low % of some units doesn't mean much. You already said that High Reclaimer isn't the most popular but is the highest performing... so it goes with other units. A support solo might be taken in only 2% of lists but is absolutely vital to how that list plays; or a very popular solo might be useless with a very popular caster.

The multi list format also significantly changes what you should have in a list. The lists which work well in a 1 list format will fail in 2-lists. 2 list armies will fail against 3-list armies. Team championships change this significantly as well: some players will bring attrition lists and play to not lose for their team, skewing what looks good - this happens in GW games as well where Skaven and Daemons have high showing in team tourneys.

If you are determined to ignore the advice given by people here to start small, then try jumping in at 50pts with a netlist. I think it will make you a worse player, you'll lose more often and you'll have less fun than if you start small and build upwards.

Well it turns out almost nobody plays warmachine around me. I went to the FLGS today and they said 4-5 play sporadically. My local GW has 20-25 players who play weekly, sometimes several games a week. I called another FLGS 35 miles away and they said Wednesday nights they have 6-10 WM players but that's about it. I work in law enforcement so I work Mon-Fri at night when they play. I may end up just playing WM casually because it doesn't seem like anyone plays competitively within 100 miles of me. I wish the anecdotal evidence about everyone ditching GW for WM was true here but it seems we have 4-5x as many 40k players as WMH in Alabama.

Where do you live?

You might consider going on the PP forums and asking there. You'll be more likely to find some people. I doubt there is nothing within 100 miles.

Birmingham Alabama. I'm in a couple alabama war gamers FB groups and it's 90% 40k players there too. I'm going to keep looking, it just sucks that I can drive less than a mile in 2 different directions and get a 40k game whenever I want and 1-2 tournaments a month but warmachine will take a 30+ minute drive and maybe get a casual game every other week.

Toofast wrote:
Birmingham Alabama. I'm in a couple alabama war gamers FB groups and it's 90% 40k players there too. I'm going to keep looking, it just sucks that I can drive less than a mile in 2 different directions and get a 40k game whenever I want and 1-2 tournaments a month but warmachine will take a 30+ minute drive and maybe get a casual game every other week.

Try to find players and arrange games at the FLGS. The official forums might be a good place to ask.

Find out who the Press Ganger is at the store and have a talk. He/She should be able to tell you about what the shop has playing.

The meta changes every year with new steamroller rules. And just about every year there are a handful of potentially meta changing releases.

Hey guys!

I'm also thinking of giving Warmachine a shot again and I think I want to try Legion of Everblight.

Any good advice on blogs to follow about them?

Also model advice would be great. I plan on getting the starter box, but if there are any Warlocks/units that are hard to go wrong with, I'd love to know.

To Stoffer:

I suggest the PP forums, which unlike GW's actually exist, as well as being 10,000% better than the gash forums GW got rid of.

http://privateerpressforums.com/forumdisplay.php?21-Legion-of-Everblight-Community

As far as I know, Legion is quite pillow fisted and frail, but also very powerful in good hands. They're top 5 or even top 3.


To Toofast, I concur with not getting the battle box if it's got rubbish in it. Good luck finding some local gaming clubs that play it.


Gaz