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They won't be able to make their 2d6 run if there's at least one model without a rokkit pack. On the other hand, you don't really want to make this extra d6 run while loosing 1/6 of the squad. But without it, they're just 9 pt boyz that move 12'. Probably, not that bad, but not great either.

The grey knight terminator squad vs the 20 man ork blob w/ nob and painboy. I charged, but its very difficult to get all twenty boys in melee range, even with 3" pile in. He challenged, all I had to accept was my painboy and my nob, since he had a halberd I would have died to 3s so I refused the challenge. My boyz did 12 wounds and he saved against them. End of story. After that I was doing 2 or 3 wounds at most. Hitting on 4, wounding on 5, he challenged every turn. Either he would have killed my nob with the claw or my feel no pain.

Yes unfortunately the Rokkits require the entire unit to have it, which sucks. I'd love to slap a painboy in there as well.

Not that 9pt boyz with a 12" move is bad though. In the end its cheaper than boyz in a wagon (20x3=60pts more than the usual 20man wagon boyz, but minus the 150pt wagon so 90pts cheaper), they can reach 30strong while retaining this speed, and no EXPLODE! risk. Flipside of that last one is no armor protection from small arms...but then again i think i'd rather face a ton of guns than suffer an explode when i have a 6+. Only reason i deal with it on boyz is because it makes them move twice as fast, losing less in the end.

Hmm...now im tempted to run a painboy in stormboy squads and just say screw the 2D6 run. 30 boyz plus nob/klaw/bp = 310pts....thats exact cost as 20boyz + wagon w/ ram, 2bs, planks, and riggers. Ok, technically 6pts more expensive since you have to cut a boy in the wagon squad to add in the painboy...big deal lol
Damn it i got enough wishlist formations rofl

 urion wrote:
The grey knight terminator squad vs the 20 man ork blob w/ nob and painboy. I charged, but its very difficult to get all twenty boys in melee range, even with 3" pile in. He challenged, all I had to accept was my painboy and my nob, since he had a halberd I would have died to 3s so I refused the challenge. My boyz did 12 wounds and he saved against them. End of story. After that I was doing 2 or 3 wounds at most. Hitting on 4, wounding on 5, he challenged every turn. Either he would have killed my nob with the claw or my feel no pain.

Why not take it with the nob? He has 2 wounds and FNP, so he would at least have a fair shot at surviving. Better that than to have him shuffled off to the back every turn.

 PhillyT wrote:

 urion wrote:
The grey knight terminator squad vs the 20 man ork blob w/ nob and painboy. I charged, but its very difficult to get all twenty boys in melee range, even with 3" pile in. He challenged, all I had to accept was my painboy and my nob, since he had a halberd I would have died to 3s so I refused the challenge. My boyz did 12 wounds and he saved against them. End of story. After that I was doing 2 or 3 wounds at most. Hitting on 4, wounding on 5, he challenged every turn. Either he would have killed my nob with the claw or my feel no pain.

Why not take it with the nob? He has 2 wounds and FNP, so he would at least have a fair shot at surviving. Better that than to have him shuffled off to the back every turn.

This is why I like to recommend the 15 points (9 points over a Boy) to get a Mek. He is a character and can accept challenges. 9 points to allow one of your effectively rank and file Boyz to take it for your Nob, letting you get some devastating Power Klaw hits in without putting your Nob or Painboy up to the slaughter? I'm cool with that.

As for why he didn't accept the challenge with his Nob? Probably Force Weapons. Instant death and ignores FNP when active. That said, a change from 6th to 7th is that you now actually have to have an activated Force to ignore the FNP, and you have to activate it in your own turn's psychic phase instead of immediately after inflicting the unsaved wound. Mixing this up on either side of the table is an easy mistake for older players coming back into the game to make.

Now here's my question for urion: Did you remember to 'Ere We Go? You can reroll one of your two dice rolls when charging. This is very useful for things like the Ork Horde formation, where you gain Hammer of Wrath when you charge 10" or more inches (before modifiers). Or, in this case, getting 1 or 2 extra inches to squeeze more Boyz into the brawl.

Yeah, I assumed the paladin didn't have an activated force weapon, but maybe he did!

 urion wrote:
The grey knight terminator squad vs the 20 man ork blob w/ nob and painboy. I charged, but its very difficult to get all twenty boys in melee range, even with 3" pile in. He challenged, all I had to accept was my painboy and my nob, since he had a halberd I would have died to 3s so I refused the challenge. My boyz did 12 wounds and he saved against them. End of story. After that I was doing 2 or 3 wounds at most. Hitting on 4, wounding on 5, he challenged every turn. Either he would have killed my nob with the claw or my feel no pain.

Statistically terminators loose this fight.

20 choppaboyz shoot ~ 0.5 casualties.
Overwatch from termies kills a boy or two. 5 terminators with power swords kill ~1.7 boyz with fnp and 2.5 without fnp. If he has a hammer or two, good for you, even more boyz are gona strike before them and wasting hammers on choppaboyz is allready a loose. He'll just statistically kill 1 more.
Let's say, just 10 boyz can strike with all the random charges,pile ins and deaths before striking resulting in ~ 1.7 casualties
Thus, shooting + striking kills ~ 2.2 termies before a pk nob who statistically kills ~1.1 termie with a 5++.
In the end, 2-3 dead terminators. And even if you're below average and loose this combat, boyz can't fall back from mellee if 10+ are left. And even if lower than 10 and having failed ld, boyz still get a 75% chance to stay in combat thanks to mob rule and nob with bosspole.

You were just unlucky this time - happens. And yep, you have meks to eat challenges now, so that's not as huge a problem as before.

Yeah. I never thought of the meks before so I plan on using them now, but the fact remains, if I don't kill the terminators on the charge which is almost impossible, I will still be doing virtually no wounds from then on and will eventually lose combat, whether by being kill to a man or by failing morale, especially since there is a good chance I lose boyz to failed morale, if only one or two a turn. Since my unit, with all its extra characters is more expensive than the terminators I lose in points too. So it still comes down to: a large mob does not beat terminators. Turn 1 - two-ish boyz from overwatch, about 5 from wounds from melee attacks. Five orks don't make it to combat due to short charge range through terrain, 40 attacks = 10 wounds = 2 unsaved wounds. Orks lose by 5 needing double ones to stay in combat = failed morale, more wounds against orks. Turn two - 14 orks left, one died from morale failure, grey knights cast force and hammerhand, grey knights challenge, nob declines challenge/or accepts and dies. Grey Knights do 7 wounds. Orks do 4 wounds = no unsaved wounds. Orks lose by seven = failed morale. Turn three - Grey Knights finish orks on their turn with no casualties, then shoot and assault another unit continuing the slaughter. Mobs don't stop terminators.

I'm going to try out a fast list with bikes, stormboyz, wartrakks, deff koptas and boyz in trukks. I'm also going to try out the Burna Bommber formation. It seems pretty amazing since whatever one of their large blasts lands on dies automatically.

- GK Termiantors are 33 each, so even without any upgrades there is no way for a boy unit be more expensive than them, even if you add a mek and a painboy - maximum cost of a unit of boyz is 220 without weapon upgrades, a naked GKT units is 330. You could add a MA warboss and still be cheaper.
- FNP and probably cover can be taken against overwatch
- When you cause 2 wounds and your opponent causes 5, you pass morale on 4 or lower. Overwatch casualties do not count towards combat resolution.
- The Nob should cause 2 more casualties all by himself, the pain boy also causes more wounds due to poison and more attacks.
- Barring very unlucky dice, it's close to impossible to not get an entire unit of 20 boyz into close combat when you use 'ere we go. You average move through cover should be around 6", plus another 3" pile-in. Everyone within 2" of a model in base contact can fight. The terminators also have to pile in towards you, usually comming closer. Five boyz would have to be more than 12" away from those terminators in order to not be able to fight, while another boy was within 6". If that actually was the case, maybe you should rethink your movement/deployment of large mobs?
- If you were using your Waaagh!, how did you not get all of them in there? If you weren't, why didn't you shoot them first?

Boyz are the solution to terminators. You just have to meet them on equal footing. You simply can't expect to toss a single 200 point unit against a unit bordering 400 points and hope for them to win. Charging them with two units will easily solve your problem. Getting your warboss in there will solve your problem as well. Unloading a unit of shootaboyz or two on the terminators before charging will make them a lot easier to handle.

No unit you are going to pick is going to defeat another unit twice it's points. That's not how orks work.

A unit of 20 boyz is 6+4 eavy armour. (10)pts. 200 + nob/power klaw(35)+painboy 50 + Mek 15 = 300pts!
Grey Knight Terminators are 165pts for 5!

Even without the eavy armour the ork unit is still 55 points more than the terminators.

Well, we've presented you the simple math on the result of boyz vs terminators. Mathimatically boyz murderize termies without suffering too many casualties in return. Once again, you just got unlucky. Statistically, even if 10 boyz + nob strike, they kill 2-3 termies. And if 5 termies strike, they kill 2 - 3 boyz. To ensure your victory, shoot down one or 2 termies if possible. And it's really not that hard to shoot down terminators with orkses cause they're usually close and our 12-18' rof is outstanding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You don't have problems with killing power armored guyz, do you? So, termies are just 2 times more durable to most of our weaponry. And just 1/3 to ap2 weaponry.

 urion wrote:
A unit of 20 boyz is 6+4 eavy armour. (10)pts. 200 + nob/power klaw(35)+painboy 50 + Mek 15 = 300pts!
Grey Knight Terminators are 165pts for 5!

Even without the eavy armour the ork unit is still 55 points more than the terminators.

Well, you have just proven that 'eavy armor blows. Something that's I have been telling everyone since the last codex. Here is one thing you can improve on already: leave the armor at home and get actual useful stuff in your army.

Your example had 10 terminators in them, otherwise your numbers are way off, also 165 is with no upgrades. That boyz unit will kill those five terminators easily:

19 Boyz, one Nob, one Mek, one Painboy have 21 slugga shots, hit 7, wound 3.5, kill .583
5 Terminators shoot ten shots of overwatch, hit 1.67, wound 0.833, kill 0.56
5 Terminators strike ten times, hit 5, wound 4.16 (assuming helebards and/or hammerhand), kill 2.78, one of those probably your mek.
After 3 casualties 17 boyz strike 68 times, hit 34 times, wound 17 times, kill 2.83 terminators
Painboyz strike four times, hits 2, wounds 1.5, kills .25
Nob strikes four times, hits 2, wounds 1.66, kills 1.11

5 Terminators take 4.75 casualties, orks take 3.39, 4.73 if force is active. So tell me how losing 24 points of boyz and 15 points of mek for a 165 points unit is bad.

As a rule, 'eavy armor is not worth it on footsloggas - you're better off with more bodies. But it's really a must have for truckboyz and sometimes wagonboyz. Opinions vary here, but my lonely squad of 'ard truckboyz in a list of footsloggas has proved their worth. Maybe, if you're going for a trucklimit, you might want to get 1 more squad over 'eavy armor on everyone, but that's optional and by no means an autochoice. s4 explosions and mob rule and 4+ nobz are allready enough to justify armor.

I'll be honest, massed attacks are still the best way to deal with terminators.

In the example about charging terminators, there is no real way to deal with the challenge issue - if he keeps issuing a challenge, you're either voluntarily not using your best chunk of melee ability or your letting him job the painboy. With grey knights I'd eat the challenge on turn one with the painboy since you don't want to miss out on the nobz attacks - the painboy's done his job by getting the mob into combat, and surviving I4 attacks, and if he's got Force turned on he's not much use to you anymore anyway.

A grey knight justicar isn't too bad (unless he's got Forceactivated) because he can't kill a nob outright easily - two attacks will struggle to do two wounds. If he's got a daemonhammer he'll smoosh the nob easily but the nob should smoosh him at the same time - which isn't too bad a trade in the grand scheme of things.

If you're not happy with melee - and I get that challenges are annoying - you could always do it with shooting.

a grey knight terminator squad puts out relatively low amounts of small arms fire for its cost - compare the amount of firepower a shoota mob puts out. Lost of shoota fire is a very nice way to chop up expensive squads; a full shoota mob should drop one or two terminators every time it fires, and (pleasantly) it's nearly as good in an assault if you need to, with the added bonus of dearholygodthatsalotofshots overwatch.

I'd second Jidmah's comment about eavy armour. Attaching a painboy to a full mob of orks costs you one and a bit points per ork. Buying eavy armour costs you more than twice that.

Yes, all right, a 4+ save is better than a 5+ feel no pain - except that it's a damn sight easier to take the 4+ save away (heavy bolters, thunderfire cannons, assault cannons) and the 5+ save can stack with cover where you get it (grots, more boyz, etc).

Heavy armor is generally bad. It makes boyz cost 10pts each and you really dont get it that much. 30 boyz with heavy armor costs as much as 50 boyz roughly. I never use heavy armor except on my meks that arent in MA or on a bike.
AP4 is way too abundant in this game for it to cost 4pts per model to get. Even at 1000pts every army usually has something that throws around ~10 AP4 shots that wound on 2s, and if a melee weapon has an ap at all and isnt unwieldy its probably AP3/4.

Heavy armour, in my opinion, is wasted on foot mobs, and is iffy on truck boyz. Wagon slugga boys, I think is worth it though, because 9 times out of 10 they WILL make it into combat unscathed with the full 20, and that's where their 4+ will shine because most melee is ap-. A 4+ on a 4 attack model is not something to be underestimated.

But in pretty much all other cases, armour ain't worth the Mithril Silver you painted it with! Even on truckboyz, I'd rather have another truck than heavy armour.

People like to bawwww about Mob Rule, but unless you have absolute gak tier luck, you'll be fine as long as your Nob is alive and you have a Bosspole. And if the unit is worth saving, they'll regroup next turn anyway even if they leg it.

Also, on the topic of the Fearless stick in the Green Tide Formation: take it. Yes, it is near impossible to fail morale with that monstrosity, but do you really want 100+ boyz reduced to WS1 because of a botched Fear check on ld9?

EDIT: and as a pre-emptive strike against nay-sayers: "but wut if the unit you're charging has all power weapons hurr" the answer to which is to charge him with the boyz you took WITHOUT armour (because you really shouldn't buy it for everybody. One or two mobs tops). And if anyone says "but wut if he charges yoo!" I can only retort that if you're on the receiving end of a charge as Greenskins, you're doing it wrong.

To weaken your pre-emptive strike, keep in mind that there are armies which have low AP values on almost all their CC attacks, GK, daemons and tyranids come to mind. 'eavy armor drops massively in value if you can't rule out facing one of those armies, because there often is no target available that doesn't ignore your armor.

Honestly I often play against an Ork player which I never managed to defeat with my CSM army and always troubles me with my Tzeentch's flying circus.

The trick to successfully play an Ork army in 7th is to understand that they are a shooty army that is not that scared of being charged.

Bikes and Deffkoptas, as an example, shoot an impressive amount of twin-linked str5/str8 shots, being highly mobile and quite durable (T5 and can use 4+ cover, being twin-linked and hitting on 6s instead of 5).

I feel that the secret is trying to stay highly mobile and firing a lot of shots. Add a power-klaw here and there to deal some damage on those who want to charge you/to charge shooting only armies as Tau and you won't regret it.

Maybe you'll struggle with Eldars/Daemons but.. they are OP and will be most likely nerfed down. Very few builds can compete with them...

 urion wrote:
The grey knight terminator squad vs the 20 man ork blob w/ nob and painboy. I charged, but its very difficult to get all twenty boys in melee range, even with 3" pile in. He challenged, all I had to accept was my painboy and my nob, since he had a halberd I would have died to 3s so I refused the challenge. My boyz did 12 wounds and he saved against them. End of story. After that I was doing 2 or 3 wounds at most. Hitting on 4, wounding on 5, he challenged every turn. Either he would have killed my nob with the claw or my feel no pain.

I don't have my BRB literally in hand.. But I'm 99.9% sure that challenges are issued at the beginning of a combat; not at the beginning of a round of combat. Ergo you can be forced to sit out the first player turn, but once round two comes around it's Power Klaw town.

I believe you can issue challenges on any combat turn where there isn't already an ongoing round of combat. But I don't have my book in front of me either!

Since I have my BRB at hand, I can confirm that challenges are issued at the beginning of every fight sub-phase.

Whoops, in my above post I meant challenges could be issues at the start of any round there isn't an ongoing CHALLENGE.