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Actually, the minimal cost is 660 pts. But you really want nobz in there, upping the cost for another 100, and at least half of them need pk's, so another 125+. Boss wants a big bosspole for 20 pt, 'eavy armor and probably a pk, though, you really want to avoid challenges with him, however, he's forced to accept those, let's count it as another 29 pts. Next, you want a painboss, preferably with at least a single orderly to increase the chance of saving a wound he had failed to look out, and that's extra 55.

Total of 989 pts.

I don't know how important a DLS boss is but that's extra 119 pts.

And about Snikrot. It's not mandatory to take 4 big squads. Actually, i've run 2*full squads and 2*5 kommandoes. It's quite difficult to provide cover for all the squads, so the small ones act as a live cover for the larger ones. Thus, the opponent has to choose if he wants to shoot at chaff that gets 5+ rerollable, or at the main units that get 3+ rerollable.

 RedizDead wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
When you combined a KFF and Painboy into the mix, you have over 100 models as a single unit that has a 5+ Invul to shooting attacks, and a 5+ FNP on top of that.

You should read KFF v7 rules again mate. It covers any MODELS within 6'', and not UNITS anymore

I know this. You set up the tide properly, and have the Mek up just enough to cover the front ranks, as attacks are directional. Only exception being Barrages, which can be the bane of the tide. Or, you bring two Big Meks, and space them out to cover as much space as possible. All it takes is smart placement.

Or you don't bother with meks and get more support units that are more essential than extra durability to an allready durable but slow unit. The problem with meks for a green tide is this 6' range. if you spread your squad, kff covers less models, if you bunch them up, you're suffering significantly more wounds from blasts and templates. Thus, making KFF quite situational. It's usually just better to spend points elsewhere.

 koooaei wrote:
Or you don't bother with meks and get more support units that are more essential than extra durability to an allready durable but slow unit. The problem with meks for a green tide is this 6' range. if you spread your squad, kff covers less models, if you bunch them up, you're suffering significantly more wounds from blasts and templates. Thus, making KFF quite situational. It's usually just better to spend points elsewhere.

From my experience thus far, the Mek's have yet to be dead points. It costs a little extra, but it's been fine. I've played the Tide 4 times, with 4 wins, and I don't think it would have done quite as well. While you have a lot of models, they die pretty easily overall. The extra save is highly worth it to me. Everyone's results may vary, but for now, I'll keep my KFF in my tide as personal preference.

You're still left with plenty of points for support, even with the point investment in Tide survivability. That's the great thing with Orks I suppose, people can run their own preferred variants of the same tactic, and it tends to work well.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
are you referring to the traditional green tide, which is max troops walking on their own side by side? the formation is 10 units, not 6, plus a boss. Minimal cost of this formation is like 1105pts (warboss has nothing but pk and fearless pole), which seems to be a running trend in the ork formations.

I want to run pretty much every one of these formations, but Snikrot's is the only feasible one without basically fielding nothing BUT the formation lol. Even that one costs ~900pts if you field max kommandos and pk's.

Which, as someone who has run the snikrot formation (and is planning to run it more), is not what you do.

Two max kommando squads, complete with PK and burnas (one gets snikrot). Infront of them throw down two bare-bones quads. Bare-bones squads are kind of flexible - you can just run five kommandos, seven kommandos, six + nob with pole, 8+ nob with pole, ect. It depends on how much dakka you think the enemy will throw at them - their actual use is to stand infront of the two 'decked out' squads and make sure they get 3+ cover. If they survive they get to soak overwatch, if not then they did their job. Even if you throw in a mek or two to soak challenges, this makes the formation MUCH easier on the points. It lets you run something else that's very scary and mandates your enemy taking care of, basically letting you box them in and go for the throat.

EDIT: I suppose that 4 decked out squads might -actually- not be that bad.. You can't come in from different tables edges with each squad, right (god, can you imagine)? If your opponent deploys a particular way you could come out in different spots on the same table edge and threaten multiple units, mandating that he make some tough calls.

Melevolence wrote:

You're still left with plenty of points for support, even with the point investment in Tide survivability. That's the great thing with Orks I suppose, people can run their own preferred variants of the same tactic, and it tends to work well.

Fully agree here. I'm just pointing out that kff meks are not auto-include and you can have other stuff that's situationally better. 1 KFF mek almost costs like 4 rokkit buggies. Sometimes you want this bit of extra survivability, sometimes you want mobile anti-tank/air. Up to you to decide. Meks just have their drawbacks too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 morganfreeman wrote:


EDIT: I suppose that 4 decked out squads might -actually- not be that bad.. You can't come in from different tables edges with each squad, right (god, can you imagine)? If your opponent deploys a particular way you could come out in different spots on the same table edge and threaten multiple units, mandating that he make some tough calls.

While remaining more vulnerable when the opponent has lots of fast things you can't catch. Which, sadly, happens from time to time. I like the 15+15+5+5 format much more just cause it doesn't eat this extra 280 pts you'll need on the (other) front and is less prone to overmass negative effects.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
are you referring to the traditional green tide, which is max troops walking on their own side by side? the formation is 10 units, not 6, plus a boss. Minimal cost of this formation is like 1105pts (warboss has nothing but pk and fearless pole), which seems to be a running trend in the ork formations.

I want to run pretty much every one of these formations, but Snikrot's is the only feasible one without basically fielding nothing BUT the formation lol. Even that one costs ~900pts if you field max kommandos and pk's.

Which, as someone who has run the snikrot formation (and is planning to run it more), is not what you do.

Two max kommando squads, complete with PK and burnas (one gets snikrot). Infront of them throw down two bare-bones quads. Bare-bones squads are kind of flexible - you can just run five kommandos, seven kommandos, six + nob with pole, 8+ nob with pole, ect. It depends on how much dakka you think the enemy will throw at them - their actual use is to stand infront of the two 'decked out' squads and make sure they get 3+ cover. If they survive they get to soak overwatch, if not then they did their job. Even if you throw in a mek or two to soak challenges, this makes the formation MUCH easier on the points. It lets you run something else that's very scary and mandates your enemy taking care of, basically letting you box them in and go for the throat.

EDIT: I suppose that 4 decked out squads might -actually- not be that bad.. You can't come in from different tables edges with each squad, right (god, can you imagine)? If your opponent deploys a particular way you could come out in different spots on the same table edge and threaten multiple units, mandating that he make some tough calls.

Indeed. I had an idea a while back about doing a "Special Forces Ork Army" using Snikrot to stab people in the back and Zaggstruk to pile up the board with a big combined mob of stormboyz. It's a very atypical ork army, but could look quite cool. Shame no-one has access to Waaaggh!, but you can't have everything.

I like the idea about 'skirmish screening' with two 'chaff' kommando mobz. 3+ rerollable cover is nasty.

I'm not sure what you guys were referring to in the "doesn't sound like the rules work that way" posts. Which scenario? Green tide sounds cool, but I've always thought of them as easy to tie up or kill using dreadknights or dreadnoughts, but I guess with a few nobz with PK's it shouldn't be a problem. I have a questions I've been wondering about when it comes to the Biggest and Da Best rule. Could you challenge with another model first and avoid challenging with your warlord? The rule says he must challenge if possible. If another model challenges first it would not be possible for him to challenge, kind of like running with a model that has to charge the closest enemy unit? Also, thank you all for your advice.

 urion wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys were referring to in the "doesn't sound like the rules work that way" posts. Which scenario? Green tide sounds cool, but I've always thought of them as easy to tie up or kill using dreadknights or dreadnoughts, but I guess with a few nobz with PK's it shouldn't be a problem. I have a questions I've been wondering about when it comes to the Biggest and Da Best rule. Could you challenge with another model first and avoid challenging with your warlord? The rule says he must challenge if possible. If another model challenges first it would not be possible for him to challenge, kind of like running with a model that has to charge the closest enemy unit? Also, thank you all for your advice.

There are some things that you've mentioned that make us wonder if you got cheated in some of your past games. It seems too unlucky if you will.

As for Biggest and Best (really challenges in general) - any character can declare/accept/reject a challenge. If you have 2 characters in a squad, you get to decide which one declares or accepts the challenge. If you decline an opponent's challenge, he/she selects which character of yours will sit out for the fight sub-phase.

So for Biggest and Best, it's just a character, doesn't have to be your warlord if you have a different character in the unit.

 Jidmah wrote:
Which makes me think about how orks would play rock-paper-scissors.

Ork1: "Oi, let's play rokk, paper, scissors!"
Ork2: "A'right."
Ork1: "Rokk, paper, scrissors."
*Ork2 shoots Ork1 in the head*
Ork2: "Hurr, hurr, I win."

Ork strategy pretty much works like that. If they bring scissors, shoot them in the head.

Please be advised that this is the single greatest description I have ever heard of Orks. I love it! I may need to steal it for my signature...

On a side note:
2 primary detachments are good as you get to fill up on HQs and Heavy Support Slots (3 heavy from 1 detachment + 3 heavy from the other).

Battlewagons are really good, I would say taking 2 as standard. Any more then take the Battlewagon Bagrade (wow badly spelt, sorry) to unlock 5 scounting ones.
-- In 1850 it is hard to fill up all the Battlewagons, but remember, it doesn't say that they have to all be the same. You can mix and match to have something fun.
-- Add a single deffkopta and a Big Mek Biker with a KFF for a 5+ Invulnerable save. There IS a really big KFF for a 4+ Inv save instead, which you'll be able to unlock from a 2nd detachment. It means that you don't need to worry about having a mek inside each Battlewagon AND you'll be able to scout forward with them.

 urion wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys were referring to in the "doesn't sound like the rules work that way" posts.

For example, a big mob of boyz with hidden Klaw should logically make short work of terminators - though it seems this is not the case for you.

- 2+ is nice, but it also means 1 termie should die for every 6 wounds. => 12 hits => 24 attacks = 6 charging slugga boys). So 30 charging boyz should wipe 5 termies the turn they charge, at least statistically.
- in addition, It is not only the boyz attacks that will clean up the terms, but mainly the PK attacks.
- when charging them , make sure that after the charge movement the nob ends up a bit over 2" away from the first boys in B2B. At ini10 he is too far ( out of combat) to be be challenged. Then after pile-in his attacks will wipe some termies
- try to get a mekaniak character added with the mob. so he will take the nob/boss place for challenge, and allow you nob/boss to punch them for one more turn.

Same with MC. If it is a character, the mek character will die in challenge while the boss and the nob tear through his armour.
If not a character, then it is even much easier.

That's why when our boys are being stomped by termies and MC in combat, it seems odd to us ( or you're very unlucky, like nob whiffing all his attacks. termies succeeding every single armour and invuln save, etc... that is quite possible actually)

One odd option that a different ork player at my local FLGS has been playing is the Skyboss Wingnutz' Air Armada formation from Hour of the Wolf. 5 Flyers (3Jets, 1 Blitz, 1 Burna) that allow all "one use only" weapons to be replenished just by flying off the board.

I don't have the ork airforce to do it but it is interesting overall. Is it more effective than other options we have, not in my opinion but it does boost the effectiveness of the Blitz and Burna-bommers. The only thing that is annoying with the formation is that they enter with individual reserve rolls and not just 1 like the Tempestus formations.

Battlewagons are solid choices. I am moving away from them myself since my local meta is bringing more Las/Melta that have no issues with AV12 open topped vehicles. Yes, front is AV14 but the sides are so wide that it's more likely that your opponent will hit the side. Add in things like the Green Tide Formation, the Stormboy formation, and other heavy support options (like Mek Gunz) and there can be alternatives to using battlewagons overall. They ARE a good choice - just that depending on your meta, you may need/want to change things up.

The issue I have with the armada formation is that you don't want five planes in your list. Two or three is nice, but more just invests too many points in models that have very limited impact on the board.

Uhhh naw I love the new Dex. Real actual point efficient options.

Sure, our one thing gets best by their one thing but our thing is usually HALF the cost or less! What orks counter is over specialized lists. Flierspam? Good luck getting ALLLLLLLLLL my troops off the objectives buddy and oh hey the number of dice I roll in shooting is higher than anyone else. Terminator Skidoo? Let's see you grind through these two units of 30 boyz that cost the same as your 10 models. Gunline? It's Christmas, here have a Trukk full of Meganobz one turn away from assaulting all your stuff.

Orks are like cheap space marines. They got a thing that does everything and they have to do the opposite of what their opponent is good at to win. Try to fight an enemy at their strong suit, you lose. For sure.

 Jidmah wrote:
The issue I have with the armada formation is that you don't want five planes in your list. Two or three is nice, but more just invests too many points in models that have very limited impact on the board.

Very true. And with the formation requiring 5 reserve rolls instead of 1, you're looking at having a harder time coordinating and managing the randomness of what they can do from game to game. On top of all of that, it's not necessarily easy to manage 5 zooming flyers either. It takes a lot of planning and coordination to get things into proper position each turn not to mention issues that come up if your opponent start to position themselves so you can't land where you initially wanted.

Definitely a fluffy formation that looks like fun.

I'm not an ork player, but I did try a game proxying this list I made and had a blast:

Big Mek - shiny shoota

11 boys w/ sluggas - trukk w/ rokkit (Mek goes here)
12 boys w/ sluggas - trukk w/ rokkit
12 boys w/ sluggas - trukk w/ rokkit

5 tankbustas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 tankbustas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 tankbustas - trukk w/ rokkit

Warbuggy w/ tl-rokkit
Warbuggy w/ tl-rokkit
Warbuggy w/ tl-rokkit

5 lootas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 lootas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 lootas - trukk w/ rokkit

1000 points

22 different units at 1000 points! I was able to win games through clogging up the board controlling most/all the objectives, and target flooding the opposition.

With the new Mob rule I am unsure about green tide lists, unless I am missing something that could give them fearless again?

terminators perform just like they do in the fluff, only inversely,

in the fluff they do 1 of 2 things, 1. They never die and rape an entire planet, 2. they die horribly to wooden sticks and make a mockery of terminators.

now on the TT, they usually follow the latter, but the former has been known to happen. Fluff wise its normally the former, thats why I said inversely. lol.

I advocate 2 large groups of warbikers (yay dakka guns) with bosses and painboys backed up by some lootas and trukk boyz.

or, 3 battle wagons filled with boys/nobs/MANZ backed by trukks and a morkanught.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I'm not an ork player, but I did try a game proxying this list I made and had a blast:

Big Mek - shiny shoota

11 boys w/ sluggas - trukk w/ rokkit (Mek goes here)
12 boys w/ sluggas - trukk w/ rokkit
12 boys w/ sluggas - trukk w/ rokkit

5 tankbustas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 tankbustas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 tankbustas - trukk w/ rokkit

Warbuggy w/ tl-rokkit
Warbuggy w/ tl-rokkit
Warbuggy w/ tl-rokkit

5 lootas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 lootas - trukk w/ rokkit
5 lootas - trukk w/ rokkit

1000 points

22 different units at 1000 points! I was able to win games through clogging up the board controlling most/all the objectives, and target flooding the opposition.

While I don't see the point of lootaz in a trukk, I believe that you can have some success at 1000 points, because your opponent has to invest a fair amount of points into troops which rarely excell at killing trukks. Once game sizes reach 1500 trukks can be killed by large parts of the enemy army, which pretty much makes you waste points on getting your own army pinned and damaged.

With the new Mob rule I am unsure about green tide lists, unless I am missing something that could give them fearless again?

Gortznik and a relic from the suplement.

Upgrade to wagons!

Well, you could use empty trucks at the frontline to shield full trucks.

 urion wrote:
All that is good advice, but nothing I didn't already know. My problem is that none of it works. I've tried footslogging a Ghazghkull list. I ran big mobs of boyz with painboyz against terminators and failed to do a single wound, even getting the charge, and after several turns in combat my mobs were wiped out, again with no casualties from his units. The argument that I tied him up in combat is false since my units cost more than his. So HE was tying ME up in combat. Dreadnights killed all my fire support on turn one by teleporting 36" across the board and shooting them to death, in cover. And his Cleansing flames did the rest. Game over turn 2.

Speed freaks: Space Marine Bike list has better hammer of wrath hits, better saves, more shooting, and hit and run so no tying units up with mobs. Against terminator armies Trukk rush is worthless since you can't do near enough attacks with 12 boyz. Minimal vehicles means worthless buggies/koptas.

Space marines (any kind) shoot the melee and melee the shooters better than orks will ever be able to.

Then there is the T9 Mephiston walking around with smash and his best friend Brother Corbulo.

Because of challenges warbosses and nobz with power klaws can't kill monstrous creatures or terminators. Me: "I charge your terminators." opponent: I challenge with my thunder hammer/stormshield sergeant or special character with an ap 2 sword." Me: removing nob or warboss from table without him attacking. Monstrous creatures have initiative higher than one and smash = dead nob or warboss.

I guess my problem is I make my lists before I know who I'm playing against. I need to start waiting to make my list when I see what my opponent is bringing and tailor it to kill his army specifically.

The challenge thing is easy. He challenges you with a prince, so you accept with a nob and cave his skull in. The nob will die, but since wounds carry both in and out of challenges now, your warboss can bring that str10 claw to bear. With rerolls to hit and wound, I might add, with the lucky stikk and attack squig.

The mephistar is a little tougher to handle. But having played with it on several occasions, I can admit that the best way of dealing with it is to ignore it. Itll usually get 1 good assault off out of its transport. After that, just play keepaway, lol

why would you buy lucky stikk and the attack squig? you cant reroll a reroll and the stikk lets you reroll all the attacks while the squig does one.

squig is too expensive imo

With the new Mob rule I am unsure about green tide lists, unless I am missing something that could give them fearless again?

Gortznik and a relic from the suplement.

New mob rule is actually pretty decent. It works more often than the old mob rule did for sure. It makes truck boyz much much more viable, because even a lone nob can tie up a combat and not run away.

Let me be the first to speak out against the Green Tide, though. It is fun to use, but in my opinion, taking four or five thirty man mobs is better because of target saturation. Bosspoles mean that mobs are never really gonna run away anyway, so thats not the concern. The issue is that with a Green Tide, your opponent can literally funnel all of their shooting into the unit willy nilly. This is particularly bad against enemies like tau (think about markerlights for just a second).

And worst off is if your opponent is smart, he can just throw in sacrificial speed bumps or (gork save you) tarpit you back. The main issue is just that the formation is kind of clumsy and difficult to manoeuvre, and can only ever actually score one objective on the table a turn.

Keep in mind for Green Tide's Biggest and Best rule, the Boss must challenge if he can, so keep him in situations where he cant therefore doesnt have to. Like, in the back with the Fearless Stick if you really wanna run the Tide.

Against Tau, I often have a bad time. I win about 50/50 against them, but the game isnt often enjoyable. It boils down to if I can make melee with my army by turn 3, all at the same time, I win. If I can't make it by turn three, or half my army is in turn two, and the other isn't, its also over. The key to beating Tau is to hit their castle all in one turn across the entire board. Make their supporting fire useless and multicharge EVERYTHING YOU CAN because you WILL beat them in combat and their flashbangs prevent you from getting your +1A from charging anyway.

Luckily for you, you say that your most common enemies are MEQs. And that's great. I'd debate that our ENTIRE CODEX is a hard counter for MEQs. Orks eat Space Marines alive. We can drown them in wounds, and we have so much cheap S8 AP3 (or better) that its not even fair. As for issues with enemy psykers? I've grown to love Weirdboyz, and often take enough troops to unlock a detachment just so I can grab two of them, even if that means paying the grot tax. As long as they are each in a mob of boyz you're getting +1 cast dice each, and the utility they can provide, not to mention ridiculous antics, are worth it every time. Sure you won't have 15 psychic dice, but you'll have at least 4 + the winds of magic dice, and that's gotta count for something.

In the new edition orks here, the most important thing isn't necessarily raw killing power or overwhelming dakka as much as it is about perfect timing. One of the most enjoyable parts about playing orks is being unpredictable. BE UNPREDICTABLE. Don't ever let on to what your devious scheme is. And you better have a devious scheme, even if it's just "charge him with everything." One of the coolest things we have going for us is target saturation. Use that to your advantage and wage psychological warfare against the guy. Misdirection is critical. With proper aggressive playing and a pinch of luck, YOU can essentially decide for the opponent what units he is going to shoot this turn. Is it critically important for a unit of tankbustas to go unscathed for a turn? Present him with an IMMEDIATE threat that he cant ignore. Like a truck full of boyz right in his lines.

Well, even without fearless....the smallest youre probably going to see that formation is 100 models. You'd have to kill 25 of them to force a leadership check, and at least theyre LD9 at that thanks to the boss. Considering you will have at least a painboy if not grotsnik for fearless, thats quite a bit of work to force a leadership on them lol.

Also, W!Ghaz suppliment has a rule that alters mob rule. You add +2 to the result, making a 1 impossible, 2-3 only possible on a 1, and the rest the one requiring 10+ models. Unless mob rule doesnt affect the leadership, or theyre about dead, they autopass any leadership (just take some wounds occationally).
Bout the only time i like that rule. Everything else i hate it because 15man kommandoz wont ever get mob rule unless i roll a 1 or very unusual and specific situations, or things like the Big Mek in the Dreadmob formation has it and...yea...that makes him just as unlikely to benefit.

Oh and btw Bolg da Goff, Defensive grenades got changed in 7th. They dont deny charge benefits anymore, theyre an offensive "flashbang" that reduces BS and WS to 1 if they hit you. Pretty much every tau player i know except me doesnt know that until theyre already in combat. I spam those damn things when i get a chance because Blind is awesome lol.

p180 Defensive Grenades
You lose the extra attacks from charging only.

The being reduced to BS/WS 1 is only if they throw a grenade at you, which thankfully, they can't do on overwatch as it's a blast weapon.

Stormboyz are amazing nowadays. Seriously, 4/5 players won't realize that the unit of 25 stormboyz with a nob and a painboy will make a 20-30" charge on turn 2, making them be able to charge nearly anything.

Megabosses attached to artillery pieces is amazing as well. A lucky stikk megaboss giving an artillery unit amazing survivability and relentless from Slow and Purposeful is pretty damn neat.

wighti wrote:
Stormboyz are amazing nowadays. Seriously, 4/5 players won't realize that the unit of 25 stormboyz with a nob and a painboy will make a 20-30" charge on turn 2, making them be able to charge nearly anything.

Megabosses attached to artillery pieces is amazing as well. A lucky stikk megaboss giving an artillery unit amazing survivability and relentless from Slow and Purposeful is pretty damn neat.

I don't think Painboyz can have Rokkit Pack, so if you attach the Painboy to Storm Boyz, you're going to slow them down considerably.

Megabosses with Artillery seem pretty sweet though

I have had fair luck with the orks so far. You need a mix to have fun, but you can win with plenty of systems. Wagons and meganobz are what look like great ways to compete currently. Here is a quick report I did for a game yesterday. The enemy list wasn't great, and it was unpainted, but still an example of a mixed ork list.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/615948.page#7219213

Frozocrone wrote:

wighti wrote:
Stormboyz are amazing nowadays. Seriously, 4/5 players won't realize that the unit of 25 stormboyz with a nob and a painboy will make a 20-30" charge on turn 2, making them be able to charge nearly anything.

Megabosses attached to artillery pieces is amazing as well. A lucky stikk megaboss giving an artillery unit amazing survivability and relentless from Slow and Purposeful is pretty damn neat.

I don't think Painboyz can have Rokkit Pack, so if you attach the Painboy to Storm Boyz, you're going to slow them down considerably.

Megabosses with Artillery seem pretty sweet though

Give the Painboy a bike, and he can move along with the Stormboyz