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I was specifically thinking about Chaos Maulerfiends' Lasher Tendrils, but I suppose this question can be applied to any ability or piece of wargear that subtracts enemy attacks from their profile - does it only affect their base profile or does it also incorporate and any all attack bonuses they receive? My query came up after the following exchange in another thread:

 Sir Arun wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, the lasher tendrils are disappointing too in the sense that a lot of people miss it only reduces the attacks characteristic. That means people still get the bonuses from 2 weapons or from charging so it rarely reduces the number of attacks of anyone at all. Shoulda been a free side-grade imo.

You sure it works this way?

My understanding is that attack bonuses are applied before they are subtracted - not the other way round. If for example a Black Templar Initiate squad (thats standard space marines armed with bp+ccw) charge a Maulerfiend, each would have 3 attacks (1 base, 1 for 2ccws and 1 for charging). Each set of Lasher Tendrils would subtract 1 attack each, leaving everyone with 1 attack per guy.

Rules:



Example:

A Space Marine Veteran Sergeant with two powerfists (base profile: 2 Attacks) charges the Maulerfiend. He would get 2 bonus attacks (+1 for charging, +1 for two specialist weapons), but each of the Maulerfiend's 2 sets of Lasher Tendrils would subtract 1 attack from the model's Attacks characteristic.


Method A: We apply the Maulerfiend's Lasher Tendrils' rules first, and thus subtract the Space Marine Veteran Sergeant's Attacks from his Attacks characteristic before any bonuses. This would reduce his Attacks by -2, but because Attacks can only be reduced to a minimum of 1, the Space Marine Veteran Sergeant would only lose 1 Attack. We then apply all bonuses (+1 for charging, +1 for two specialist weapons) and the Space Marine Veteran Sergeant ends up delivering 3 powerfist attacks onto the Maulerfiend.

Reasoning backing this: Page 49 of the BRB under the Number of Attacks section reads: "Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks:"

Conclusion: Bonus attacks are not part of the Attacks characteristic - they do not modify it, but add to it. You make a number of attacks equal to X (attacks characteristic) + Y (bonus attacks). X is the number on your profile. Y is not. Y modifies the number of attacks you made, not the number on your profile. Lasher Tendrils specifically states that it affects the Attacks characteristic, not the attacks a model has, therefore it only modifies the base profile.


Method B: We apply all modifiers first, bringing the Space Marine Veteran Sergeant up to 4 attacks. We then apply the rules from both sets of Lasher Tendrils and subtract 2 attacks, bringing the Space Marine Veteran Sergeant down to 2 attacks. This order of operations follows the mathematical rules of PEMDAS, i.e. add before subtract.

Reasoning backing this: Page 8 of the BRB under the Modifiers section says: "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.)."

The above implies that the Attacks characteristic is being modified. Furthermore, note the capitalization of the word Attack. The English language does not usually capitalize nouns unless they hold a special meaning - in this case being the proper name of the unit characteristic responsible for dealing damage in close combat. Page 49 of the BRB, under the Number of Attacks section, describes what Charge Bonus, Two Weapons etc. do -> the model gets +1 Attack, not +1 attack.

Conclusion: Bonus attacks are a special rule (what else are they?) that directly modify a unit's Attacks characteristic instead of adding to it, therefore they are taken into account before subtraction.

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

What are Lasher Tendrils? Multipliers, subtractions or a set value?
If the wording is "reduce the A to 1", then you are doing -x = 1
If the wording is "the enemy only has 1 A" then that is a set modifier.

Apply Core Rules - Multiple Modifiers. Multipliers, then additions / subtractions, then set values. Bonus attacks for 2CCWs etc. are still modifiers.

1A base, +1 for charging, +1 for 2CCW, -1 for Tendrils (or however many it subtracts) = 2 attacks.

 Quanar wrote:
Apply Core Rules - Multiple Modifiers. Multipliers, then additions / subtractions, then set values. Bonus attacks for 2CCWs etc. are still modifiers.

1A base, +1 for charging, +1 for 2CCW, -1 for Tendrils (or however many it subtracts) = 2 attacks.

Not actually correct. The Lasher Tendrils reduce the Attacks Characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1) so will have no effect on a model with an Attack Characteristic of less than 2.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Not actually correct. The Lasher Tendrils reduce the Attacks Characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1) so will have no effect on a model with an Attack Characteristic of less than 2.

Hum, I can see the point in the debate if it specifically mentions "characteristic", whereas bonus attacks don't necessarily modify the characteristic - they just modify the number of attacks.
Compare to a Dark Eldar Shardnet, which reduces the number of attacks rather than the characteristic.

Still not sure on my HIWPI, but no one cares about mine anyways.

And 2 CCW increase the attack characteristic by 1, so i'm not sure why you are seeing a difference.

You have a base: 1A
you have "additions or subtractions": +1A +1A -1A.

Result: You have 2A. Quanar is correct by RaW

 BlackTalos wrote:
And 2 CCW increase the attack characteristic by 1, so i'm not sure why you are seeing a difference.

You have a base: 1A
you have "additions or subtractions": +1A +1A -1A.

Result: You have 2A. Quanar is correct by RaW

Under Number of Attacks in the Assault Phase section, we are told that a model makes a number of Attacks equal to its Attacks Characteristic, plus certain bonus Attacks. It does not actually tell us to modify the Attacks Characteristic itself.

If you are trying to imply that CCW and Charging is a "certain bonus Attacks" and not actually a "then apply any additions or subtractions" of the A Characteristic, then you will agree that these happen independently to "and finally apply any set values" too.

If the Lasher Tendrils do not combine with CCW and Charge (or Rage) as a +1, +1 (+2), -1, then you will surely agree that Smash attacks do not combine with CCW and Charge (or Rage) as a +1, +1 (+2), Set modifier=1.

I am not disagreeing with your theory, but consistency would mean you Smash with 1A plus charge and CCW. Some might not agree with such a conclusion is all...

According to PEMDAS, which GW appears to follow.

You would do addition first and then subtraction.

So yes, they would add up their attacks to 3 and then you would reduce those.

But IIRC 2 sets of lasher tendrils don't stack.

 Grey Templar wrote:
But IIRC 2 sets of lasher tendrils don't stack.

They explicitly stack.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And 2 CCW increase the attack characteristic by 1, so i'm not sure why you are seeing a difference.

No, they do not. They increase how many *attacks* you get, but not your attack characteristic.

You have a base: 1A
you have "additions or subtractions": +1A +1A -1A.

Result: You have 2A. Quanar is correct by RaW

No again, because the RAW says to reduce the attack *characteristic*, the models attack *characteristic* is 1A, so it doesn't go any lower, then other modifiers are added/subtracted.

IF the RAW said reduce the attacks (and never mentioned 'characteristic') then you would be correct.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you are trying to imply that CCW and Charging is a "certain bonus Attacks" and not actually a "then apply any additions or subtractions" of the A Characteristic, then you will agree that these happen independently to "and finally apply any set values" too.

If the Lasher Tendrils do not combine with CCW and Charge (or Rage) as a +1, +1 (+2), -1, then you will surely agree that Smash attacks do not combine with CCW and Charge (or Rage) as a +1, +1 (+2), Set modifier=1.

I am not disagreeing with your theory, but consistency would mean you Smash with 1A plus charge and CCW. Some might not agree with such a conclusion is all...

Smash Attack is perfect for this.

Last edition, Smash Attack reduced your *attack characteristic* by half, so things like Charge bonus and extra attacks were not affected.
This edition, Smash Attack refers to just 'attacks' and does not mention 'characteristic', so it applies to all of the attacks.

I do not see the issue.

You use the multiple modifiers in the brb to determine number of attacks.

You have a model with 1 attack that charged and has 2 weapons in base with a model with the Chaos Maulerfiends' Lasher Tendrils'

The model has 1 attack, -1 from tendrils, +1 from launching an assault and +1 from two weapons.

So 1-1+1+1=2 attacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I do not see the issue.

You use the multiple modifiers in the brb to determine number of attacks.

You have a model with 1 attack that charged and has 2 weapons in base with a model with the Chaos Maulerfiends' Lasher Tendrils'

The model has 1 attack, -1 from tendrils, +1 from launching an assault and +1 from two weapons.

So 1-1+1+1=2 attacks.

2 sets of tendrils is -2 attacks (and a Maulerfiend can't have a single set of tendrils). Just a small correction.

I'm not seeing the point of the question. IS there a case where it is working out differently? I'm also not seeing a quote for the lasher rule.

Is someone trying to "-1 Attack" to a Smash which only gives 1A and make it zero?

Otherwise 1+1-1 =1-1+1

If there is a "gets double attacks" the order will matter, but not for just addition or subtraction, and set modifiers come at the end anyway (so Smash=1, no matter how many negatives you stack on it).

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
I'm not seeing the point of the question. IS there a case where it is working out differently? I'm also not seeing a quote for the lasher rule.

Is someone trying to "-1 Attack" to a Smash which only gives 1A and make it zero?

Otherwise 1+1-1 =1-1+1

If there is a "gets double attacks" the order will matter, but not for just addition or subtraction, and set modifiers come at the end anyway (so Smash=1, no matter how many negatives you stack on it).

Lashers subtract one from the Attacks Characteristic.


Since (for example) Assault Marines have a 1 Attacks characteristic, you subtract 2 (to a minimum of 1) and then add a bonus attack for two weapons (not added to the Attacks characteristic) and another bonus attack for charging (again, not added to the Attacks characteristic).

So it's (1-2(floor 1))+1+1=3.

rigeld2 wrote:

Since (for example) Assault Marines have a 1 Attacks characteristic, you subtract 2 (to a minimum of 1) and then add a bonus attack for two weapons (not added to the Attacks characteristic) and another bonus attack for charging (again, not added to the Attacks characteristic).

So it's (1-2(floor 1))+1+1=3.

This.



The Smash Attack from last edition was "division", but it applied to the attack *characteristic*, so it did not wait for the 'adds' of charge and bonus weapons...

rigeld2 wrote:

Lashers subtract one from the Attacks Characteristic.

Spoiler:

Each set of lasher tendrils reduces the Attacks characteristics of every model (friend and foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they remain in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative.

Since (for example) Assault Marines have a 1 Attacks characteristic, you subtract 2 (to a minimum of 1) and then add a bonus attack for two weapons (not added to the Attacks characteristic) and another bonus attack for charging (again, not added to the Attacks characteristic).

So it's (1-2(floor 1))+1+1=3.

The floor is only applicable after the calculation is finished.

rigeld2 wrote:

Lashers subtract one from the Attacks Characteristic.

Spoiler:

Each set of lasher tendrils reduces the Attacks characteristics of every model (friend and foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they remain in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative.

Since (for example) Assault Marines have a 1 Attacks characteristic, you subtract 2 (to a minimum of 1) and then add a bonus attack for two weapons (not added to the Attacks characteristic) and another bonus attack for charging (again, not added to the Attacks characteristic).

So it's (1-2(floor 1))+1+1=3.

Thanks for the quote. Yes, since it modifies the Attacks characteristic I'd go with that same reading. If I'm swinging two lightning claws or whatever at your head, that's two potential hits even if I only swing once (I'd guess the bonus from charging is a power armour headbutt or whatever, fluffwise). If I'm so skilled I can swing my VV sword twice (thrice on a vet sergent), that's where the lasher stuff would seem to come into play.

Rule wise:
"Number of Attacks
Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks: "

So yeah, lasher whips don't work on bonus attacks, which are defined in the same section.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Lashers subtract one from the Attacks Characteristic.

Spoiler:

Each set of lasher tendrils reduces the Attacks characteristics of every model (friend and foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they remain in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative.

Since (for example) Assault Marines have a 1 Attacks characteristic, you subtract 2 (to a minimum of 1) and then add a bonus attack for two weapons (not added to the Attacks characteristic) and another bonus attack for charging (again, not added to the Attacks characteristic).

So it's (1-2(floor 1))+1+1=3.

Thanks for the quote. Yes, since it modifies the Attacks characteristic I'd go with that same reading. If I'm swinging two lightning claws or whatever at your head, that's two potential hits even if I only swing once (I'd guess the bonus from charging is a power armour headbutt or whatever, fluffwise). If I'm so skilled I can swing my VV sword twice (thrice on a vet sergent), that's where the lasher stuff would seem to come into play.

Rule wise:
"Number of Attacks
Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks: "

So yeah, lasher whips don't work on bonus attacks, which are defined in the same section.

They work on bonus attacks, why would they not?

"• +1 Charge Bonus: Engaged models that charged this turn get +1 Attack this turn. Models in units that made a disordered charge do not get this bonus.

• +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each." (The Assault Phase chapter, Number of Attacks section).

Each give +1 attack. They are also special rules that modify a characteristic, so lowering the characteristic would take bonuses into account as bonuses add to the characteristic.

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.)." (Models & Units chapter, Modifiers section).

 DeathReaper wrote:


The floor is only applicable after the calculation is finished.

It *is* finished. The Attack Characteristic is "number on profile +/- any modifiers x// any modifiers then set modifiers. Then the calculation for determining the Attack Characteristic is finished.

To determine the number of allowed attacks is " Attack characteristic +/- any modfiers...etc"

Those whips are used to calculate the characteristic, not the number of allowed attacks that turn.


This is the *SAME* way Smash Attack worked last edition....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
.

Each give +1 attack. They are also special rules that modify a characteristic, so lowering the characteristic would take bonuses into account as bonuses add to the characteristic.

Please provide the rule quote stating these are changes to the *characteristic*...


And while you are at it, explain why Smash Attack worked the way it did last edition.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Lashers subtract one from the Attacks Characteristic.

Spoiler:

Each set of lasher tendrils reduces the Attacks characteristics of every model (friend and foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they remain in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative.

Since (for example) Assault Marines have a 1 Attacks characteristic, you subtract 2 (to a minimum of 1) and then add a bonus attack for two weapons (not added to the Attacks characteristic) and another bonus attack for charging (again, not added to the Attacks characteristic).

So it's (1-2(floor 1))+1+1=3.

The floor is only applicable after the calculation is finished.

Not true, as the modification is made to the attack characteristic, NOT the number of attacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Lashers subtract one from the Attacks Characteristic.

Spoiler:

Each set of lasher tendrils reduces the Attacks characteristics of every model (friend and foe) in base contact with the bearer by 1 (to a minimum of 1) whilst they remain in base contact. The effects of multiple sets are cumulative.

Since (for example) Assault Marines have a 1 Attacks characteristic, you subtract 2 (to a minimum of 1) and then add a bonus attack for two weapons (not added to the Attacks characteristic) and another bonus attack for charging (again, not added to the Attacks characteristic).

So it's (1-2(floor 1))+1+1=3.

The floor is only applicable after the calculation is finished.

Correct.
And the calculation of the Attacks characteristic is finished. Therefore the floor is applied, as I've proven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Rule wise:
"Number of Attacks
Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks: "

Underlined the emphasis that the bonus attacks are not part of the characteristic.

"• +1 Charge Bonus: Engaged models that charged this turn get +1 Attack this turn. Models in units that made a disordered charge do not get this bonus.

• +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each." (The Assault Phase chapter, Number of Attacks section).

Each give +1 attack. They are also special rules that modify a characteristic, so lowering the characteristic would take bonuses into account as bonuses add to the characteristic.

I underlined your assumption that has no rules support. Given the other quote, bonus attacks do not modify the characteristic, they modify the number of attacks.

coredump wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
.

Each give +1 attack. They are also special rules that modify a characteristic, so lowering the characteristic would take bonuses into account as bonuses add to the characteristic.

Please provide the rule quote stating these are changes to the *characteristic*...

I have, but here it is again:

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.)." (Models & Units chapter, Modifiers section).

Any time you apply a +1 that is modifying the characteristic.

Does lash say that it reduces the base characteristic? If not, and a +1 attack modifies the Characteristic so that the new characteristic is +1 or +2 etc... over the base characteristic.

It is the same with Daemons and the +3 LD when casting psychic powers within something that says they are at -3 to their LD (Like SitW). They would end up with LD9 +3 -3=9 (Not LD9 +3 (capped at 10) -3=7) the red text is not correct.

And while you are at it, explain why Smash Attack worked the way it did last edition.

Last edition? not very familiar with smash in 6th. So I can not comment.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


The floor is only applicable after the calculation is finished.

Correct.
And the calculation of the Attacks characteristic is finished. Therefore the floor is applied, as I've proven.

Not at all finished, you have the rule about launching an assault that adds 1 to the Attacks Characteristic and as such needs to be added before you cap the characteristic.

Dr - you made a leap there, and ignored the rules quote from Rigeld that proved otherwise.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


The floor is only applicable after the calculation is finished.

Correct.
And the calculation of the Attacks characteristic is finished. Therefore the floor is applied, as I've proven.

Not at all finished, you have the rule about launching an assault that adds 1 to the Attacks Characteristic and as such needs to be added before you cap the characteristic.

Address the second half of my post please. It proves you wrong with rules quotes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Dr - you made a leap there, and ignored the rules quote from Rigeld that proved otherwise.

No leap, the rules I posted say that two weapons add +1 attack, this applies to the characteristic because of the rules for modifiers.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Rule wise:
"Number of Attacks
Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks: "

Underlined the emphasis that the bonus attacks are not part of the characteristic.

"• +1 Charge Bonus: Engaged models that charged this turn get +1 Attack this turn. Models in units that made a disordered charge do not get this bonus.

• +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each." (The Assault Phase chapter, Number of Attacks section).

Each give +1 attack. They are also special rules that modify a characteristic, so lowering the characteristic would take bonuses into account as bonuses add to the characteristic.

I underlined your assumption that has no rules support. Given the other quote, bonus attacks do not modify the characteristic, they modify the number of attacks.

It is not an assumption. Bonus attacks are modifiers. Base characteristics can be modified.

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.)." (Models & Units chapter, Modifiers section).

+1 Attack is a modifier to the characteristic.

The characteristic is being modified, your claims are not true.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Rule wise:
"Number of Attacks
Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks: "

Underlined the emphasis that the bonus attacks are not part of the characteristic.

"• +1 Charge Bonus: Engaged models that charged this turn get +1 Attack this turn. Models in units that made a disordered charge do not get this bonus.

• +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each." (The Assault Phase chapter, Number of Attacks section).

Each give +1 attack. They are also special rules that modify a characteristic, so lowering the characteristic would take bonuses into account as bonuses add to the characteristic.

I underlined your assumption that has no rules support. Given the other quote, bonus attacks do not modify the characteristic, they modify the number of attacks.

It is not an assumption. Bonus attacks are modifiers. Base characteristics can be modified.

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.)." (Models & Units chapter, Modifiers section).

+1 Attack is a modifier to the characteristic.

The characteristic is being modified, your claims are not true.

Please explain why the actual rules for number of attacks separate the two (Attacks characteristic vs bonus attacks). Please cite relevant rules because the rules I've cited disagree.

I am not an editor or writer, so I have no idea why they made that distinction.

The rules are clear though.

+1 attack is a modifier (Agreed)?

Modifiers modify characteristics (Agreed)?

If so then there is not debate to be had.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not an editor or writer, so I have no idea why they made that distinction.

So you have no rules saying that the bonus attacks modify the characteristic rather than (what the actual rules say) the fact that they add to the number of attacks?

Cool story bro. Come back with rules support.

There is also an additional portion of the Lasher Tendril rule:

"For example, if a model is in base contact with two Maulerfiends, each of which has two sets of lasher tendrils, he has 4 fewer Attacks."

Attacks and Attacks characteristic are interchangeable with regards to modifiers within the rule for the item itself.